OSAS doctrine denies the faith

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Honest question DC, as a believer, can you lose faith to the point you deny Jesus Christ and never come back?

Take a look at someone named Charles Templeton, who was a greater Evangelist than Billy Graham and both of them were great friends, until Templeton left his faith. He died back in 2001 ,but not before writing a book called Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith. Billy Graham said Templeton was one of the most God fearing Evangelists of his time, until he went to Seminary at Princeton.

Many dismiss Templeton as not ever really being saved, but can a man that is not saved personally lead other men to Jesus Christ?

You will never lose your salvation by failing to do works like praying, going to church or reading the Word. There aredenominations that do believe this and they are wrong.

However, I do believe the scriptures do show us that you can shipwreck your faith and deny the Lord Jesus Christ and never recover. Jesus said as much, he that denies me, I will deny him before the Father[Matt 10.33]


I am only asking because I am trying to see where these folks are coming from. Many of the hardened Atheists I know, got that way because they once believed and something happened to their faith and they left the faith and began teaching against Christ and 1 John 2.7-11 tells us that anyone that does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God.

Hell is the separation between man and God.
Salvation by grace is not dependent upon the works that a man does or does not. Salvation by grace is dependent solely upon God.

There is not a single suggestion of a soul that was saved ever being lost. The man in 1 Corinthians 5 was in gross sin and yet he was not condemned Spiritually but physically. Given to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Flesh not spirit.

How is Templeton any different than Judas? I'm not God so I cannot judge another man's salvation. I can only measure his works or fruit. I know only my personal state before the Lord. There are many who have questioned Dr. Grahams faith given the extent to which he compromised with unbelievers in his ministry.

Show me from the bible someone who was saved by grace and lost it. Even in the OT when David sinned he was not condemned.

Spend so time considering just what it means to be saved by grace. Consider Gods grace and what it is in character and virtue. Ask God to reveal to you just a little of what His grace represents.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jan 7, 2015
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Keep dreaming.....You teach you can lose salvation....if one can lose salvation one must do something to keep it or get it back....that is a works based salvation and what you are teaching is found in the Galatians under chapters 1 and 3.....Paul calls you a FOOL if you think your salvation begins with faith and then is made complete by works or what you do...wake up and smell the truth...maybe if you actually believed the word and didn't spiritualize everything you would realize that YOU started this argument by your OP...at the end of the day it is a works based pseudo gospel that you promote......and all who are like you or those who never really stand for anything but SIT ON THE FENCE (as they have eloquently stated a few times) will agree with you while posting scripture that actually in context argues against you!
This is about faith in what God says is true, OSAS is contrary to the words of God concerning the falling away from the faith. If all you have are accusations and insults, railings, and name calling then you've already proven have vain your faith is being unable to bridle your mouth.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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Salvation by grace is not dependent upon the works that a man does or does not. Salvation by grace is dependent solely upon God.

There is not a single suggestion of a soul that was saved ever being lost. The man in 1 Corinthians 5 was in gross sin and yet he was not condemned Spiritually but physically. Given to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Flesh not spirit.

How is Templeton any different than Judas? I'm not God so I cannot judge another man's salvation. I can only measure his works or fruit. I know only my personal state before the Lord. There are many who have questioned Dr. Grahams faith given the extent to which he compromised with unbelievers in his ministry.

Show me from the bible someone who was saved by grace and lost it. Even in the OT when David sinned he was not condemned.

Spend so time considering just what it means to be saved by grace. Consider Gods grace and what it is in character and virtue. Ask God to reveal to you just a little of what His grace represents.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your very suggestion that you state that it is only grace and not also our faith as EPH 2.8-9 states, negates any comments you have made on the subject. It is Grace + Faith, not just grace.

God Grace will follow many straight to hell, because their faith will never meet his grace.
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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See there, just as I said in the OP, denying the words of God because they say they don't apply to them, or they are out of context, or that's not in the original manuscripts, or that's a bad translation or interpretation, yada, yada, yada. That is called denying the words of God!
No, actually it is you that is denying the words of God......context means everything and to whom the letter was written means everything.....why do you suppose it has the name Hebrews? Wake up man...serious.....wow!
 
Mar 12, 2014
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lol.. No. If osas was faith in man, he would never claim it could not be lost. for man is imperfect. anything based on man is flawed and not perfect.

Sounds like your teaching, a salvation which is no salvation at all. A faith which is no faith at all. because it is based on men, not God.


sometimes you people do not think, if you would actually think, you would not make such amazing statments which make no sense.

It is based on man-made teaching for it is not taught in God's word. Nowhere does God's word say a Christian can sin all he pleases to and he will still be saved. This is a convenient idea of man that man made for himself so he can sin all he pleases and still be saved..man tries to provide for himself no accountability, no responsibility or no eternal consequence for his sinning....very convenient. No point in Christ dying for the sins of man if those sins cannot keep one out of heaven.
 
S

Sirk

Guest
So what I gather from the saved by self crowd is this. God is a God of only the highly intelligent. There is no room in His kingdom for the simple, the beggars, the mentally ill, the suffering....those who have seemingly insurmountable addictions brought on by abuse and neglect. Your God is a heartless one, with no room for anyone but you....and you are as equally as selfish and heartless as your god. You can keep your god that doesn't keep his promises and I will cling to the grace and mercy that Jesus brings to those who simply give Him their heart and bring nothing more.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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No. not true. How could a true and living faith ever die?

if it dies. it was because it was no faith at all. it was mere belief. It is not even your faith, it is Gods.

God has no power in your gospel. he is dead, or asleep or something. but he is not the omnipresent, omniscient, perfect loving God he claims he is.
God will keep his promises, but faith is required on our part, not unbelief.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. (2 Thessalonians 3:3).

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; ." (2 Corinthians 13:5-7).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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This is about faith in what God says is true, OSAS is contrary to the words of God concerning the falling away from the faith. If all you have are accusations and insults, railings, and name calling then you've already proven have vain your faith is being unable to bridle your mouth.
You should take your own advice......
 
S

Sirk

Guest
So what I gather from the saved by self crowd is this. God is a God of only the highly intelligent. There is no room in His kingdom for the simple, the beggars, the mentally ill, the suffering....those who have seemingly insurmountable addictions brought on by abuse and neglect. Your God is a heartless one, with no room for anyone but you....and you are as equally as selfish and heartless as your god. You can keep your god that doesn't keep his promises and I will cling to the grace and mercy that Jesus brings to those who simply give Him their heart and bring nothing more.
And this is why your gospel is a message of death. There is no love and without love your words are a banging gong.....bong bong bong crash crash crash.

Your god will thank you for all the hearts you ran over on the way to him. Well done not so good and faithful servant.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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Why does this issue come up daily, on dozens of threads, in various incantations? Confess with your mouth in Jesus and believe God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Please STOP dividing the brethern! Preach that Gospel and tell people how Jesus and the Holy Spirit has been working in YOUR life. THAT is what resonates with unbelievers
Haters are gonna hate, my Brother.

And the post #39 list does not refute eternal life for those who have faith in Jesus.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. (2 Thessalonians 3:3).

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; ." (2 Corinthians 13:5-7).
Pop Quiz #1: If Paul says we are to be kept from evil, then why are believers here defending a "sin and still be saved" type belief or a belief that they will forever be a slave to their sin in this life?

Pop Quiz #2: If Paul pray that we do no evil, and yet believers are claiming that they are still doing sin or evil all the time and or on occasion, then how is what they believe consistent with what Paul is saying here?
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
Not one here has proven OSAS to be true from the bible.
You lie yet again. It has been proven time and again that eternal security is the teaching of Jesus, who brings us, as believers, into an eternal relationship that guarantees our eternal security. The simple fact is this happens instantly, when people come to know Christ as their Savior.

Jude 24, NASB
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

It is up to God, it is in His power that the believer is prevented from falling. He presents us, we do not present ourselves, before the throne of grace in that last day, before His glorious presence. We do not maintain our salvation. That is possible only through the power of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed:

John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son? And before you say “Anyone can remove themselves,” that’s another damnable lie. If “no one” can snatch us away, how do we snatch ourselves away? "No one" means us, too. Otherwise, where is the exception to Jesus’ words In that passage? Where does He say, "Oh, but you can snatch yourself out"? He doesn't. To deny eternal security, you must twist, lie, deny, obfuscate and still can’t make that passage deny eternal security. It proves it.

Ephesians 1:13, 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our seal, a down payment, toward our future redemption. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be for the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. And while you may believe that is the case, John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Your continuing false gospel of “lost salvation” is denied by the very words of Christ. You do not know Him. If you did, you would repent in sorrow, dust, and ashes for dishonoring His word by lying about it and misrepresenting it. And you will not address any of the salient points in this post, because you cannot overcome their truth, which is not from me but from Christ Himself.

You prove my original point. You do not do this to “edify.” You do it to destroy faith. You do this to deny Christ. You are an agent of Satan. BE GONE!
 
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Pull up a post where I called u a name...I may have said slice, or dude or Sea Perch and have referenced the MAN who had a great deal of INFLUENCE on your COC belief which DOES INFLUENCE YOUR BELIEF just like Charles Russell Started Jehovah's Witness, or Joseph Smith and Mormonism...your religion is no difference....

and to be quite frank, you are somewhat delusional.....many on this site have rolled right over your misapplied quotes, rejection of verb tenses, rejection of the definition of words and denial of context to the point that they and we have determined it does not good to cast the truth out into the hog pen for you and your cronies to trample it under foot.......

The bible is clear....


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He gave his unique Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

(as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Looks like you copied all this error that has been posted by poster "ATWOOD" in the past.


Where did Jesus say 'believe only' and thou shalt be saved? If He did, then He contradicts Himself for He made repentance confession and baptism as necessary and essential to salvation as belief.

In Jn 10, who does God give eternal life to and why is it they will never perish? Can you answer this without assuming OSAS into the text?

Jn 3:16 "should not" is subjunctive mood meaning something thing may or may not occur depending upon circumstances. One may or may not perish depending upon if he maintains a present tense belief. If he quits believing he can perish.


It seems you and others that every time you see the word 'believe' in the bible you automatically add the word 'alone' behind it when that word is not there. Belief, in various places in the bible, is used as a synecdoche where it includes repentance, confession and baptism. The same Jesus that says belief saves is the same Jesus that said repentance confession and baptism all saves and He did not contradict that by saying "belief only" saves.
 
S

Sirk

Guest
Pop Quiz #1: If Paul says we are to be kept from evil, then why are believers here defending a "sin and still be saved" type belief or a belief that they will forever be a slave to their sin in this life?

Pop Quiz #2: If Paul pray that we do no evil, and yet believers are claiming that they are still doing sin or evil all the time and or on occasion, then how is what they believe consistent with what Paul is saying here?
Nobodies defending sin. We're defending the true gospel of christ against your hollow gospel of self importance.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Haters are gonna hate, my Brother.

And the post #39 list does not refute eternal life for those who have faith in Jesus.
Actually, in my many years of discussion on this issue, it is primarily the OSAS proponents who have brought forth the most hate towards those who do not believe as they do. Yes, there a few OSASer's who are nice that I ran into. But most I have talked with are actually very cruel in the way they treat you (When you discuss this topic).
 
Mar 12, 2014
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And more to boot.....you guys need to open your eyes to the truth before you wake up in a liquid deprived place with higher than normal temps.........!

The natural man cannot know, discern and or spiritually understand the word of God as it is foolishness unto him and he cannot KNOW IT.

Acts 7, did those "natural men" understand Stephen's gospel sermon that he preached to them? Yes they did, v54.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
You should take your own advice......
They tell everybody their faith is lies of the devil, try to shred grace, denigrate the blood and work of Jesus Christ, impugn God's ability to save, and you're the one insulting. I don't know about you, but I don't as much mind being insulted, as seeing the Lord insulted.

But it's your usual old "attack the messenger" routine, as old as Satan and Job. These people would be thrown by their rears, out of many Bible believing churches, spreading such lies. It's only message boards they have to congregate in, the ones that don't have the likes of a Kingdom Hall to report to. And some of these "gospels" don't register with anything known to man, where anybody could afford to buy a building, I daresay put up a tent.

 
Jul 22, 2014
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Nobodies defending sin. We're defending the true gospel of christ against your hollow gospel of self importance.
Well, that is not true.

Here are OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:

#1. Future Sins are Forgiven (Which can make a person think they can have a license to sin).
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect (and nor can they stop sinning ever).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Pop Quiz #1: If Paul says we are to be kept from evil, then why are believers here defending a "sin and still be saved" type belief or a belief that they will forever be a slave to their sin in this life?

Pop Quiz #2: If Paul pray that we do no evil, and yet believers are claiming that they are still doing sin or evil all the time and or on occasion, then how is what they believe consistent with what Paul is saying here?
Pop quiz....Why do you keep misrepresenting the truth and applying things not taught unto the people who believe in the security of the believer?

Pop quiz....Why do you deny your a sinner that sins' under the banner of messing up or slipping up?

Pop quiz....Why do you say you are without sin, but will also say that you are not perfect YET?

Pop quiz...Why do you deny you teach a works based salvation when your gospel relies upon what YOU do or do not do?

Pop quiz....Why do you reject the very definitions of the inspired words, contexts and verb tenses that contradict your view?

Pop quiz...Why do you talk out of both sides of your mouth?