OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[DesiredHaven]

oh Ya.....you're as fair and balanced as George stephanopalous.

I dont the guy

 

[DesiredHaven]

Scripture here is speaking of sanctification not of salvation. The example in 1 Cor 5 of the man living in sin demonstrates this with extreme biblical precision. Paul said to pray for his flesh to be delivered to satan for destruction not that his soul should come into condemnation. This was for the sake of the testimony of the church.

God loves His children and chastens those who need to be instructed with tribulation and suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks for your input on these

 

[notuptome]

Well, I do not believe in Works Salvationism or in earning my salvation. I believe God (Christ) does the "good work" in the believer's life and that it is not ultimately their work. A believer merely yields to the work God wants to do in them. Just as a new believer yields to the working of the Spirit to repent of their sins and to accept Christ as their Savior. So yes; Out of salvation (Repenting of one's sins and accepting Christ).... flows good fruit. For Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation; For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). If a believer sins, and they refuse to repent of that sin, then Jesus (Being Holy) cannot abide in that person because they are openly rebelling against Him. Nor is God going to back out on His promise to save a person if they do repent of their sins and accept Him as their Savior (Even if He knows they will turn away away from him 5 years down the road). God does not force salvation upon people. Nor is salvation in something that we do, either. For Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. For we can do all things thru Christ which strengthens us. In other words, when I say we must obey Jesus.... I am talking about yielding to the work He wants to do in you. So it's not your work. You cannot take the credit and do a dance of victory for any works that you do. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

The Holy Spirit will never leave nor forsake those who have trusted Christ to save them. The Holy Spirit is the seal whereby they are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and God will send tribulation and chastisement upon believers who sin. First half of your post is biblical and the second half is wholly untrue. To believe what you state is to be double minded and unstable.

Salvation once done is done forever. Sanctification is a life long process and is complete only when we are glorified together with Christ. All stumble and some forsake the way but God remains faithful. God restores and chastises in His wisdom to glorify Himself.

The red herring here is that those who have the new creation and the new nature in Christ do not do what you accuse them of doing. Perhaps you see these things in yourself but believers do not have two masters. As is often the case one is better taking care of their own estate as opposed to telling others what they ought or ought not to do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cee]

The very thought that we have to obey to love people reveals an unrenewed mind.

There is plenty of Scripture that indicate once you believe you are saved. They are very few that indicate the opposite is true.

And even more twisted is the fact that those who believe you can lose your salvation are often the most unloving. But they feel in their heart they are justified because they are "being loving" by telling everyone else they have to try hard to keep their salvation. But because these people don't understand who they are in Christ (which is why they aren't OSAS) they are still working instead of bearing fruit.

Jesus' ministry started the moment He knew He His Father was well pleased with Him.

Other people think they have to wait until the end of their life to know this. As a result, they do not know how to share the love of God since they are still trying to earn it. And we can only give what we receive.

C.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is true you would never take a dig at him through me, you are far better then that

And you would be correct...If I have something to say to him, you or anybody....I will copy their post and direct my direct statement at them for sure.....Generally speaking that is.......but of course I am a sinner and fail many times......!

 

[mailmandan]

Couple of thoughts to consider;

The parable of sowing seeds...........and the examples given

The Epistle to the Galatians

Jesus speaking of "those who endure"

Jesus spoke of a great falling away.........of love waxing cold I believe

The usual response to this issue by those who believe in OSAS is that those who fall away, turn from God were never saved to begin with.............that is an "easy out" in my opinion only I suppose. Easier to believe that than to believe in the precious God given gift of "free will."

OSAS is almost..................I say ALMOST the same ideology as Calvinism, not quite, but very close. I don't accept Calvin's theology either.

Now.........LET ME SAY THIS.......for all who believe in OSAS........ok, it is your God given right, but please be sure to strive to stay in obedience to Him rather than believe one can do as they wish and still go to heaven.

Disobedience to God and rebellion from God is not the "way" to heaven in my opinion.

So regardless that these men in the book of Jude are described as their condemnation was written about long ago, they are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord, they are as spots in your love feasts, they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves, clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead/doubly dead, uprooted, devoid of the Spirit, you believe they were "saved" and "lost their salvation?"

I certainly don't teach a license to sin/lawlessness. As John gives the test of those who are truly born again. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In 1 John 2:3, we read - 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. Of course the word "keep" does not mean sinless perfect obedience to ALL of Christ's commandments 100% of the time. The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve.

In 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Obedience, as we can see then is the demonstrative evidence that we are born of God, but we don't want to swing the pendulum too far in the wrong direction and teach salvation by works. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they were extreme advocates of NOSAS and salvation by works. Their logic is that salvation is "attained" by works and "maintained" by works. That is not in agreement with salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

 

[DesiredHaven]

And you would be correct...If I have something to say to him, you or anybody....I will copy their post and direct my direct statement at them for sure.....Generally speaking that is.......but of course I am a sinner and fail many times......!

Lets put that fencesitter thing behind us, I dont hold that against you

 

[notuptome]

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

(((next part of the verse)))) and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Taking away is physical death not Spiritual death.

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (the Vine) and I in him (the branch) the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me (the vine) ye (the branch) can do nothing.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Theres NO SOAPY WATER applied to the cast forth ones

See FIRE?

And you are correcting him on my post?

Verse 15:6 show he (the branch is cast forth) CAST FORTH and gather by men for fire not soapy water

Only every branch that bears fruit gets purged (not the ones that are gathered by men to be cast into the fire

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it,that it may bring forth more fruit.

The branches who are not in the vine are not saved. They are not the branches that are purged to bring forth more fruit. These branches never were in the vine and never had any fruit. If you blur the branches you will not arrive at the correct understanding of this passage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Whatever Jason....NOT BY works of righteousness which we have done......not of works lest any man should boast....not made complete by the works of the flesh....anyway you want to twist it really doesn't matter....man is saved by the faith of Jesus...not his own works, fleshly will, righteous works etc.....you believe you can lose it then you have to do something to regain it period....no matter how much you deny it!

Your right! It's not by works of righteousness in which we have done. Titus 3:5 is absolutely rock solid and true. We are saved by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Now, read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does it say? Well, it essentially says God will give you a new heart and a new spirit and He will then put His Spirit within you whereby He will cause you to walk in His statutes (Commands). In other words, as I said to you many times before, it is God who does the work in you. The answer is... "not you." For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.

As for losing salvation: Well, salvation cannot be lost like I might lose a pair of car keys. However, a person can forfeit their salvation by willingly choosing of their own free will to rebel against God or Christ. For the BIble has always taught that sin is separation from God. Some of you here think that is not possible for a believer to reject God because some here think that God only chooses those who will turn out to be faithful to Him only. Others here think that no sin will be charged to their account and one or two unrepentant sins are not going to send them to Hell as long as they are faithful over a few things. As if God grades on a curve of man doing really evil things.

 

[Sirk]

And you would be correct...If I have something to say to him, you or anybody....I will copy their post and direct my direct statement at them for sure.....Generally speaking that is.......but of course I am a sinner and fail many times......!

REPENT!!! Blasphemer!!

 

[DesiredHaven]

In a thread where the Vine gets pruned and the cast forth branches go to the soapy water bucket I must say theres not much here to keep going with except to let it degrade into blossoms of the what is understood to be holiness.

So I will step out of this thread unless I feel there is something worthy to comment on.

 

[Sirk]

Your right! It's not by works of righteousness in which we have done. Titus 3:5 is absolutely rock solid and true. We are saved by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Now, read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does it say? Well, it essentially says God will give you a new heart and a new spirit and He will then put His Spirit within you whereby He will cause you to walk in His statutes (Commands). In other words, as I said to you many times before, it is God who does the work in you. The answer is... "not you." For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.

As for losing salvation: Well, salvation cannot be lost like I might lose a pair of car keys. However, a person can forfeit their salvation by willingly choosing of their own free will to rebel against God or Christ. For the BIble has always taught that sin is separation from God. Some of you here think that is not possible for a believer to reject God because some here think that God only chooses those who will turn out to be faithful to Him only. Others here think that no sin will be charged to their account and one or two unrepentant sins are not going to send them to Hell as long as they are faithful over a few things.

You get a little closer everyday but a miss is still a miss.

 

[Jason0047]

You get a little closer everyday but a miss is still a miss.

I have not said anything new. I have said this many, many times before, my friend.

 

[Sirk]

I have not said anything new. I have said this many, many times before, my friend.

Well I haven't given up hope on you.

 

[MarcR]

Then why did you single her out when there was several others who believe in OSAS LIKE YOU, and were also railing and making false accusations against us? Whom you also click the "like" button on after their verbal abuse and railings against us? LOL

Oh the height of hypocrisy!

I did not single her out!

I posted a general post suggesting we cool down the rhetoric.

Desired posted an argument to my post.

I responded to her argument

Desired asked what she did; and I responded that I wasn't aiming at her.

That is not singling her out.

 

[dcontroversal]

Your right! It's not by works of righteousness in which we have done. Titus 3:5 is absolutely rock solid and true. We are saved by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Now, read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does it say? Well, it essentially says God will give you a new heart and a new spirit and He will then put His Spirit within you whereby He will cause you to walk in His statutes (Commands). In other words, as I said to you many times before, it is God who does the work in you. The answer is... "not you." For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.

As for losing salvation: Well, salvation cannot be lost like I might lose a pair of car keys. However, a person can forfeit their salvation by willingly choosing of their own free will to rebel against God or Christ. For the BIble has always taught that sin is separation from God. Some of you here think that is not possible for a believer to reject God because some here think that God only chooses those who will turn out to be faithful to Him only. Others here think that no sin will be charged to their account and one or two unrepentant sins are not going to send them to Hell as long as they are faithful over a few things. As if God grades on a curve of man doing really evil things.

If one can lose salvation why the need or use of chastisement for the believer......if they lose sonship there is no need to whip them........it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever at all for God to chasten a SON whom he LOVES if they are no longer a SON because they lost it.........

 

[MarcR]

I have posted to affirm the scriptures as they speak on something. To let the scriptures bring forth the truth to us, and not take up angles.

Indeed you have; and I have no quarrel with you about it! I am still fond of you! I just disagree with your interpretation of some of the Scripture you cite. I don't want that to damage our friendship.

 

[Jeff_56]

(1) The very thought that we have to obey to love people reveals an unrenewed mind.

(3) There is plenty of Scripture that indicate once you believe you are saved.
(2) They are very few that indicate the opposite is true.......

(1) wrong.
(2) it only takes one (and you admit there are "few")
(3) wrong and wrong. Scripture says that even the demons believe
(God uses that as an example in Scripture)
to show that [ONLY|JUST|BARE MENTAL] believing by itself
DOES NOT INDICATE SAVED NOR UNSAVED.

In a thread where the Vine gets pruned and the cast forth branches go to the soapy water bucket I must say theres not much here to keep going with except to let it degrade into blossoms of the what is understood to be holiness.

So I will step out of this thread unless I feel there is something worthy to comment on.

because outside, carnal, and white-washed tombs can keep continuing to post in all these threads,
nothing in this site/ forum tends towards holiness. you may aim that way, so for a brief few seconds it is good, but then the outsiders clobber it back down..... (there appears to be no way to remedy that)...

I dont the guy

no worries at all. "IF" you were fair and balanced, you'd be as lost as the world is (and as lost as the posters who keep attacking Jesus' people....)

 

[Cee]

Let's use a Scripture that many people like to refer to combat OSAS....

1 Co 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Usually people stop here. But the next verse tells the real story of OSAS...

11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Washed - Soapy bucket anyone?
Sanctified - Were sanctified - not being.
Justified - Were justified - just as if it didn't happen.

By Christ and His Spirit.

Scripture points out what we shouldn't be doing, but it always leads us to WHO WE NOW ARE...

That's why Jesus said this:

Matthew 7:17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

Jesus changed your tree. And when you AGREE that you're a new creation. And the old has passed away and the new has come... you start to PROVE the WILL OF GOD for YOU.

Romans 12:2 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

What are you RENEWING YOUR MIND TO?

THE GOSPEL!

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[SUP]a[/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[SUP]b[/SUP] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

You're now in Christ Jesus and alive to God. And because of this "tree change" you bear fruit naturally. What fruit? The fruit of the Spirit. Stop trying to work for it. Rest in what He has done. And let His good works THAT HE PREPARED come naturally.

Ephesians 2:10 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

C.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Only every branch that bears fruit gets purged (not the ones that are gathered by men to be cast into the fire

Again, a bad translation by the KJV. The word doesn't translate "purged." It translates "pruned." You're confusing Christ's words, and it appears you do so deliberately. The Lord Himself will deal with you on that. My exegesis is correct. Yours is not.