OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[p_rehbein]

QUOTE:

Original Sin teaches that human beings are born in a state where they CANNOT obey God. Thus "sin we will and sin we must." This in turn redefines "grace" into being an "offset to inability."

Grace is not an offset to inability, grace is simply God's drawing upon the hearts of people when influencing them the way they ought to go, an influence given freely and with long suffering despite the rebellion of people.

When people view grace as an "inability offset" then "repentance" is redefined to be a mere "confession of sinfulness," a confession of inability. Thus people are deceived into a "wait upon God to change me" attitude. The Penal Substitution doctrine then provides the the "meanwhile cloak" for the ongoing state of manifest wickedness whilst people "wait on God" for they are a "work in progress."

All this is an ingenious and diabolical deception wrought by Satan and his ministers who appear as ministers of righteousness.



Seriously? Oh goodness

 

[Skinski7]

Willfull sin=beating your kids everyday
stumbling=having a bad day at work, coming home to chaos and getting angry and yelling at your kids.

I would say that most people on this site are the latter except the ones who can't admit they're the latter.....they just have themselves deceived into thinking they are all that and a box of wheaties.

Willful sin is sinning purposefully and it includes anger issues. A "bad day at work" is not an excuse to sin. Jesus had a very bad day on the cross and yet...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

There is no excuse for yielding to sin. Jesus overcame sin and so must we. It is not hard to understand.

We can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens us. Excuses for sin premised on "events" like bad says are an excuse. Our faith is meant to be tested and there is no temptation which we cannot endure.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Believe that. It is true.

We are set free from the law of sin and death via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. We are ot abide in that Spirit whereby we are able to overcome all obstacles. That is the power of the Gospel. We are literally raised up into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ if we truly repent and die to sin.

Many just don't believe it. They argue in favour of sin whilst pretending they are not doing so. I stopped going crazy at my son when I was redeemed. My inward state was transformed completely.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, PATIENCE, gentleness, goodmness, faith, meekness, TEMPERANCE.

Someone getting angry unjustly and losing control is not someone who is abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. That is a sign of someone who has yet to escape the bondage of sin.

 

[Sirk]

Willful sin is sinning purposefully and it includes anger issues. A "bad day at work" is not an excuse to sin. Jesus had a very bad day on the cross and yet...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

There is no excuse for yielding to sin. Jesus overcame sin and so must we. It is not hard to understand.

We can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens us. Excuses for sin premised on "events" like bad says are an excuse. Our faith is meant to be tested and there is no temptation which we cannot endure.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Believe that. It is true.

We are set free from the law of sin and death via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. We are ot abide in that Spirit whereby we are able to overcome all obstacles. That is the power of the Gospel. We are literally raised up into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ if we truly repent and die to sin.

Many just don't believe it. They argue in favour of sin whilst pretending they are not doing so. I stopped going crazy at my son when I was redeemed. My inward state was transformed completely.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, PATIENCE, gentleness, goodmness, faith, meekness, TEMPERANCE.

Someone getting angry unjustly and losing control is not someone who is abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. That is a sign of someone who has yet to escape the bondage of sin.

The whole point is that there is no excuse for sin. Thats why God sent His son.

 

[psychomom]

Seriously? Oh goodness

nothin' to do with goodness, p_r

 

[Skinski7]

Here's the interesting question..where did you get your theology?

Would you consider Charles Finney a good source of information?

I'm just wondering if you've read his positions on these sorts of things. He is a major cause of the issues with churches today in many ways. As RC Sproul has stated, he out-Pelagianized Pelagius. He created such a vacuum concerning theology that four major cults were borne within 250 miles of his center of influence....Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism, Christian Science and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Finney was a heretic who denied penal substitutionary atonement, justification by faith alone, imputed or acquired righteousness, moral inability and original sin. His position caused many to believe in sinless perfectionism (the ones who were consistent with it). Of course he rejected eternal security for the believer..he basically believed that you had to become righteous to be accounted righteous in God's sight.

Reading his teachings is like drinking from the toilet bowl in my opinion.

Charles Finney's theology is very dangerous because he held to a substitutional view of the atonement (Moral Government) and thus viewed justification in an abstract sense.

He correctly rejected Original Sin but erred in not rejecting Perseverance of the Saints (P in TULIP) and thus he also held to the I (Irrestistible Grace) which he just renamed "Effectual Grace." He also upheld the U (Unconditional Election) due to accepting an "Eternal Now" view of God. Many people are deceived by him today, especially many who have come out of the lies of Penal Substitution and Original Sin.

 

[valiant]

The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.

I am sorry but that statement is ridiculous. You may know people (who are possibly not saved) who talk like that, but a true believer in eternal security sees it as being a consequence of the fact that it is Jesus Who is saving them (John 6.39; 10.27-28). They believe that God is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13). That is why they seek to work out what God has worked in them (Phil 2.12). They believe that God has made them a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5.17). They believe that if they slacken off in allowing Him to live through them they will be subject to chastening, even severe chastening (Heb 12.3 ff).

On the other hand they rejoice because He has made it possible for them to be accounted righteous in Christ (Rom 3.24-25). They are confident that there is no judgment on those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8.1). And the consequence of their being in that position is that the Spirit works in them to counteract and defeat the fleshly nature (Rom 8.2 ff).

Your problem is that you think in terms of 'OSAS' instead of the saving power of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not dependent on us (any more than our being cured in a hospital is due to us). It is a consequence of Jesus Christ being our SAVIOUR. It is a task in which He will not fail. It is He Who is saving us, not we ourselves. And warning passages are there like spurs to spur us on in our walk with Him. But they do not mean that He will desert us or fail in His task.

It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. That is exactly what Paul was accused of. Because he also taught that salvation was wholly the consequence of the gracious activity of God (Rom 3.24-29) he was accused of saying 'let us sin that grace may abound' (Rom 6.1). As he then pointed out (Rom 6.2-11) that was wholly false. He pointed out that because salvation was the activity of the unmerited love and favour of God the consequence was that Christians died to themselves and allowed Christ to live through them. They reckoned on themselves as dead to sin and alive to God (Rom 6.11).

Salvation is All to do with us being made perfect before God. Initially we are saved from the guilt of sin (Tit 3.4-7; Rom 3.24-29). We are ACCOUNTED as righteous and perfect in Christ (Rom 3.24; Heb 10.14). Consequent on that our Saviour works on us and in us to save us from the power of sin (1 Cor 1.18). His final aim is that we be presented perfect before God (Eph 5.25-27; Phil 3.21).

 

[Grandpa]

OSAS is merely a symptom of a much greater deception and that deception is the lie of "abstract salvation."

Abstract or positional salvation is a view resultant of the teaching of Original Sin.

OSAS is a "symptom" of realizing that Salvation is by the Power of God and not the power of men.

Therefore, it is not reversible by men, but only by God.

God has told us in His Word that He will not take away His Gifts or Calling.

Ephesians 2:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

We are saved when we are down here. We are not made perfect down here. Because of that we will always need the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:42-50

[SUP]42 [/SUP]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Grandpa]

As far as Original Sin goes I have no beef with it.

Where does the Lust of the eyes, the Lust of the Flesh and the Pride of Life come from? Inherited from Adam?

I guess if you don't understand Original Sin you can't understand the dire predicament we are in.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Skinski7
The issue of "failure" can only be related to sins of ignorance. Willful rebellion is the forsaking of the light and the very moment one does such a thing spiritual death is wrought. To deny that is to believe that one can sin and not surely die.

If we sin knowing that what do is sin that is 'wilful sin'. If that immediately results in spiritual death none of us have any hope. We ALL sin wilfully at times. If we say that we have not sinned we make God a liar. (1 John 1.10). Did Peter die spiritually when he denied Christ wilfully, and even did it three times, knowing what he was doing? No he fell into the grace of God. As Jesus said, 'I have prayed for you that your faith will not fail'. I sometimes sin wilfully. Does that mean that I die spiritually? No, it means that God rebukes me and brings me to repentance. BECAUSE HE IS MY SAVIOUR..

When we sin as true Christians we have ALREADY died. We died in Christ. That is an essential part of the Gospel. The sin no longer produces further death. It produces repentance and advancement in holiness.

If one has an understanding of the right way and willfully refuses and instead goes the wrong way, it is an act of death. It is the manifest state of "doing evil" that God saves us from. God simply cannot and will not forgive any individual who is in a state of rebellion. OSAS ignores this.

Rather say the Gospel ignores this. The Gospel says that if we are His as forgiven sinners, when we sin we fall into the grace of God. God stoops down and picks us up, brushes us down, and sets us off again on the true path. As Jesus said, 'Those who are bathed need not but to wash their feet.' We are not shepherds. We are silly, foolish sheep. And as such we are following our Shepherd. And as such we may hang back, or wander off sideways, or even go astray. We are sinful. What does HE say to that?

'My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me. I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE (continual and eternal) and they will NEVER PERISH (if they go astray I will seek them until I find them - Luke15.4) and no one shall pluck them from My hand. (Do your worst Satan. But they are mine and I will never fail them' (John 10.27-28).

 

[Sirk]

As far as Original Sin goes I have no beef with it.

Where does the Lust of the eyes, the Lust of the Flesh and the Pride of Life come from? Inherited from Adam?

I guess if you don't understand Original Sin you can't understand the dire predicament we are in.

No one has idols anymore....esp Christ followers....right?!?!?!

 

[Grandpa]

QUOTE:

Original Sin teaches that human beings are born in a state where they CANNOT obey God. Thus "sin we will and sin we must." This in turn redefines "grace" into being an "offset to inability."

Grace is not an offset to inability, grace is simply God's drawing upon the hearts of people when influencing them the way they ought to go, an influence given freely and with long suffering despite the rebellion of people.

When people view grace as an "inability offset" then "repentance" is redefined to be a mere "confession of sinfulness," a confession of inability. Thus people are deceived into a "wait upon God to change me" attitude. The Penal Substitution doctrine then provides the the "meanwhile cloak" for the ongoing state of manifest wickedness whilst people "wait on God" for they are a "work in progress."

All this is an ingenious and diabolical deception wrought by Satan and his ministers who appear as ministers of righteousness.



Seriously? Oh goodness

Come on Prehbein, you can do better than that...

Don't tell me you haven't attained Sinless Perfection, and therefore Salvation, yet?

If you haven't, then you are like me. You have met Christ but He didn't make you Sinless or Perfect yet. It must be because of my lack of work. I could probably achieve it if I tried harder. And believed harder. And understood better.

I guess all I can do is rely on His Grace. I really hope its sufficient. Should I be nervous?

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Well that was a close call... whew!

 

[Grandpa]

No one has idols anymore....esp Christ followers....right?!?!?!

I guess I have never seen a Christian that is walking in the Spirit 100% of the time 100% perfectly.

I know I don't.

Maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong places...?

Hold on a sec, I have to change the channel on the t.v. and answer my phone... lol

 

[Jason0047]

Jason,

You didn't answer what I asked. This is what I asked which goes into the heart of the matter.

Originally Posted by SarahM777

Jason,What is at the root of what they are doing? (It's often NOT ADDRESSED) What have they gone into? And what is it a FORM OF? It boils down to what God is after.

I myself do not believe in OSAS. (I am still trying to reconcile certain passages that to me clearly show one CAN depart from the faith,and NO ONE will be saved in unbelief)

2,3 and 4 Sins that are sins of rebellion will not be forgiven. (Rebellion is a form of UNBELIEF,and until the rebellion stops they can not be forgiven)

3 We are a new creation in Christ,when we walk in our new nature it by nature CAN NOT SIN. It is when we walk in the old nature that we sin.

5 and 6 still thinking on at the moment.

Jason I am in disagreement only on certain parts of what you say. One of the biggest problems with OSAS is that too often it leads to NO VICTORY over sin. (Been there myself,God set us free from sin and we don't HAVE to live like that anymore,but we do still battle with our flesh and there times we fail and fail horribly. And scripture does deal with that too.)

One who is rebellion needs to be dealt with differently then one who is stumbling.

I believe the Tax Collector was more justified than the Pharisee. The thief on the cross was indeed saved. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. But these men's lives are not the standard of Godliness that a man of God is supposed to live. For Godliness means one has God abiding within them. The Scriptures say in,

1 Peter 4:18
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

 

[Jason0047]

I believe the Tax Collector was more justified than the Pharisee. The thief on the cross was indeed saved. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. But these men's lives are not the standard of Godliness that a man of God is supposed to live. For Godliness means one has God abiding within them. The Scriptures say in,

1 Peter 4:18
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

So then, how did these men make it? I believe God knows a person's heart and their potential free will choices. I think God knew these men. For if they were given a longer period of time to live, they would have lived righteously.

So then, how are they righteous?

By them repenting of their sins and continuing to abide with the Lord whereby God ended up imputing His righteousness to them.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Skinski7

OSAS proponents will NEVER EVER EVER quote scriptures like these...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Why should we not quote this. I have quoted it often. It is addressed to the wicked and the unrighteous. They have forsaken the LORD from birth. If they want mercy and forgiveness, if they want to be saved, they must return to Him and He will abundantly pardon them.

True believers can never be 'the wicked' and the 'the unrighteous'. In Paul's words, 'I as I am in myself with the mind serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin'. Because they have been born of the Spirit from above their minds are set to please God. Their problem lies in their sinful nature. THAT IS WHY THEY NEED A SAVING PROCESS TO BE GOING ON AS CHRIST SAVES THEM DAY BY DAY, HAVING INITIALLY SAVED THEM ONCE FOR ALL.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

But every believer in eternal security believes this. And he knows that his Saviour will at some stage in his rebellion shine His light on him so that his sins will be uncovered. Salvation is a lifelong process as well as an initial event. CHRIST IS AT WORK WITHIN HIM. Thus He will bring him back to repentance, or in the worst cases will cause him to die so that he will not be condemned with the world (1 Cor 11.30-32; James 5.19-20).

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I don't see any difficulty. Having been saved once for all by the grace of God from the guilt and judgment of sin (Eph 2.8-9) so that we are accounted as righteous before God, we then go through the process of being saved from the power of sin, partly through the implanted word which is well fitted to 'save our inner lives'.

The engrafted word is what actually saves the soul.

God forbid. It is Jesus Christ our Saviour Who through His redemptive work 'saves our souls'. The engrafted word is one of the means by which He carries out His purifying process working in us to transform our lives. .

The Word of God has to be received inwardly in order for the salvation of the soul to take place.

As James also says, 'Of His own will He begat us by the word of truth --' (James 1.18). Thus it is through the word that God brings us to faith in Christ and subsequent new birth. At that moment we are saved once for all (Tit 3.4-7). Then His engrafted word continues the work of 'saving our lives' from the grip and power of sin as we daily walk with Him.

This cannot occur in rebellion which is why James teach that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, not just some of it.

No true Christian is IN REBELLION in your terms. His rebellion is not that of an enemy who opposes God (if it is it because he has never been transformed by Christ), it is the rebellion of a child within the family, who then has to be disciplined (Heb 12.3 ff.).

Repentance purges the soul of rebellion where we may receive God within. Look at the words of Jesus...

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Precisely what I said.. The one who has been born of the Spirit will never be in hostile rebellion. He has received the Spirit and has been given life (unlike Judas)

Now compare to what Paul wrote...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Absolutely a once for all transformation. Spiritually we are now safe in Heaven with Him, living and reigning with Him. He will never let us go. 'This is the Father's will who sent me that of ALL whom He has given me I should lose nothing but should raise them up at the last day.' (John 6.39)

OSAS teaches that salvation is purely positional in nature. It utterly denies the union with God that is manifest in the real salvation experience. When one is in union with God one cannot be in rebellion. The moment rebellion takes place is the moment there is no union. Salvation is FROM sin, not in it.

you are simply being absurd. Anyone who teaches this has never been saved or is very much a babe in Christ. Salvation to those who believe in eternal security is positional (I am now saved), effectual (BEING saved through the power of the cross - 1 Cor 1.18), certain (we shall be presented perfect before Him

OSAS teaches saved IN sin.

If you mean that we are in sin when God reaches down to save us you are correct. He' justifies the ungodly' (Rom 4.5; 3.23-24). If you mean saved while continuing deliberately in sin then you are wrong. You are foolishly writing off the saving power of Christ.

Statements like this set alarm bells off for me...

Statements like yours reveal your total ignorance of what we believe!!!! GO AND LEARN.

 

[thecreationtutor]

I guess when Jesus says things like, no one can take them away, we are not supposed to take that by faith

 

[Jason0047]

So then, how did these men make it? I believe God knows a person's heart and their potential free will choices. I think God knew these men. For if they were given a longer period of time to live, they would have lived righteously.

So then, how are they righteous?

By them repenting of their sins and continuing to abide with the Lord whereby God ended up imputing His righteousness to them.

However, men of God (who He had made pure of heart by having them being born again by His Spirit) will live out holy lives because it the proof that God is indeed living within them. For Jesus said you will know a tree by it's fruit.

 

[Jason0047]

I guess when Jesus says things like, no one can take them away, we are not supposed to take that by faith

Is Jesus talking to unfaithful believers or faithful believers?

Do you know that the Scriptures say in John 12:48 about what happens to those who reject His Word? For Jesus said that if one is ashamed of his words, he will be ashamed of them when he comes in His glory.

 

[Reborn]

I read your take on the parable of the wedding feast, Jason.

Sort of agree.
Sort of don't.

 

[Pumicestone]

.... the modern translations inexplicably carry over a bad translation from the KJV for no good reason.

Makes it a bit hard for the poor old non-Christian to know what to believe ....