OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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And I strongly disagree with you. I believe otherwise by the Spirit and God's Word. And there is no pride in such an issue. It is a pure logical deduction of the Scriptures. But I think it is best to agree to disagree. We have already discussed it with Scripture and I do not think we are going to change each other's minds.
I have already provided 1 John 3:15 as proof that suicide is a sin. However, if you are looking for 2-3 more verses, here is an article on the subject.
Where does the Bible say suicide is a sin?
Where does the Bible say suicide is a sin?
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So you are saying that every time a believer commits a sin, they are unforgiven all over again until they confess that specific sin, then they are forgiven all over again? Don't forget that 1 John 1:9 is IN CONTRAST TO 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. AND 1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. John did not say if we confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them we remain cleansed (unforgiven) but if we forget one we are no longer cleansed (forgiven).
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - if we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
*Compare "do not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with "does not practice righteousness" in 1 John 3:10. John clearly states that whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God" in 1 John 3:10.
*Compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare "in darkness" in 1 John 2:9 with "turn them from darkness to light" in Acts 26:18.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. So who walks in the light? Believers or unbelievers? Has to or does?
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - if we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
*Compare "do not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with "does not practice righteousness" in 1 John 3:10. John clearly states that whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God" in 1 John 3:10.
*Compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare "in darkness" in 1 John 2:9 with "turn them from darkness to light" in Acts 26:18.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. So who walks in the light? Believers or unbelievers? Has to or does?
No, not true. Lost unbelievers are not the only ones in darkness. The children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness. The son of man will send forth his angels and gather out of kingdom all that offend and do iniquity. It's why Jesus says to a certain group of believers to be cast out before his presence. They had put into practice Ezekiel 18 whereby if they turned and did evil, God would forget their righteousness. God will forget them as a righteous person and say he never knew them for the iniquity that they turned to doing.
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I have already listed the various false beliefs associated with what a lot of people believe who believe in either OSAS or some variation of a sin and still be saved type belief several times.
But just in case you missed it.
1. Future sin is forgiven a believer (This causes a person to think that they can have a license to sin if no disclaimer is given).
2. A believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins and still be saved (Sins like "lying", "looking upon a woman in lust", and "hating your brother").
3. Believers will always be a slave to their sin. It is impossible for any believer to stop sinning. It is considered as heresy by some of you do stop sinning (Please note: These are the types of sins that lead unto death that Paul lists several times in the New Testament, i.e. Those sin that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
4. There are two group of OSAS proponents that condone evil or sin that I have talked with. The first group believes they could murder, rape, hate, (or live in any extreme amount of sin) and still be saved. The second group I have talked with say that a believer will generally live a holy life but having one or two sins in their life (Like maybe lying, or something) will not separate them from the Kingdom. As if a little bit of sin is more acceptable than a lot of sin (for some odd reason).
5. Confession of sin is also not necessary to be forgiven by some, either.
6. Suicide does not lead unto spiritual death.
Hopefully this should help you to understand the problem we are dealing with here.
For God's people are good; They are not evil. God will not condone anyone in doing evil. It's just not possible because He is Holy.
But just in case you missed it.
1. Future sin is forgiven a believer (This causes a person to think that they can have a license to sin if no disclaimer is given).
2. A believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins and still be saved (Sins like "lying", "looking upon a woman in lust", and "hating your brother").
3. Believers will always be a slave to their sin. It is impossible for any believer to stop sinning. It is considered as heresy by some of you do stop sinning (Please note: These are the types of sins that lead unto death that Paul lists several times in the New Testament, i.e. Those sin that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
4. There are two group of OSAS proponents that condone evil or sin that I have talked with. The first group believes they could murder, rape, hate, (or live in any extreme amount of sin) and still be saved. The second group I have talked with say that a believer will generally live a holy life but having one or two sins in their life (Like maybe lying, or something) will not separate them from the Kingdom. As if a little bit of sin is more acceptable than a lot of sin (for some odd reason).
5. Confession of sin is also not necessary to be forgiven by some, either.
6. Suicide does not lead unto spiritual death.
Hopefully this should help you to understand the problem we are dealing with here.
For God's people are good; They are not evil. God will not condone anyone in doing evil. It's just not possible because He is Holy.
Jason,
You didn't answer what I asked. This is what I asked which goes into the heart of the matter.
Jason,What is at the root of what they are doing? (It's often NOT ADDRESSED) What have they gone into? And what is it a FORM OF? It boils down to what God is after.
I myself do not believe in OSAS. (I am still trying to reconcile certain passages that to me clearly show one CAN depart from the faith,and NO ONE will be saved in unbelief)
2,3 and 4 Sins that are sins of rebellion will not be forgiven. (Rebellion is a form of UNBELIEF,and until the rebellion stops they can not be forgiven)
3 We are a new creation in Christ,when we walk in our new nature it by nature CAN NOT SIN. It is when we walk in the old nature that we sin.
5 and 6 still thinking on at the moment.
Jason I am in disagreement only on certain parts of what you say. One of the biggest problems with OSAS is that too often it leads to NO VICTORY over sin. (Been there myself,God set us free from sin and we don't HAVE to live like that anymore,but we do still battle with our flesh and there times we fail and fail horribly. And scripture does deal with that too.)
One who is rebellion needs to be dealt with differently then one who is stumbling.
The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
The issue of "failure" can only be related to sins of ignorance. Willful rebellion is the forsaking of the light and the very moment one does such a thing spiritual death is wrought. To deny that is to believe that one can sin and not surely die.
If one has an understanding of the right way and willfully refuses and instead goes the wrong way, it is an act of death. It is the manifest state of "doing evil" that God saves us from. God simply cannot and will not forgive any individual who is in a state of rebellion. OSAS ignores this.
OSAS proponents will NEVER EVER EVER quote scriptures like these...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The engrafted word is what actually saves the soul. The Word of God has to be received inwardly in order for the salvation of the soul to take place. This cannot occur in rebellion which is why James teach that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, not just some of it.
Repentance purges the soul of rebellion where we may receive God within. Look at the words of Jesus...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now compare to what Paul wrote...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
OSAS teaches that salvation is purely positional in nature. It utterly denies the union with God that is manifest in the real salvation experience. When one is in union with God one cannot be in rebellion. The moment rebellion takes place is the moment there is no union. Salvation is FROM sin, not in it.
OSAS teaches saved IN sin.
Statements like this set alarm bells off for me...
If you mean "willful sin" in that statement then you do not understand salvation. If you mean sins of ignorance, ie. doing the wrong thing unintentionally then that is a different matter.
Willful sin is always a sin unto death. Always.
Satan wants people to believe that willful sin is not unto death. If Satan can convince people that they can engage in a single act of rebellion to God and not surely die then those convinced are doomed. The one lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is the most dangerous lie to ever be mouthed into existence. So many believe it even though it is the very first lie of Satan in the Bible.
Be very, very careful in what you believe and examine everything very carefully. If your heart is genuinely honest you will know these things are true as none of this is complicated.
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
The issue of "failure" can only be related to sins of ignorance. Willful rebellion is the forsaking of the light and the very moment one does such a thing spiritual death is wrought. To deny that is to believe that one can sin and not surely die.
If one has an understanding of the right way and willfully refuses and instead goes the wrong way, it is an act of death. It is the manifest state of "doing evil" that God saves us from. God simply cannot and will not forgive any individual who is in a state of rebellion. OSAS ignores this.
OSAS proponents will NEVER EVER EVER quote scriptures like these...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The engrafted word is what actually saves the soul. The Word of God has to be received inwardly in order for the salvation of the soul to take place. This cannot occur in rebellion which is why James teach that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, not just some of it.
Repentance purges the soul of rebellion where we may receive God within. Look at the words of Jesus...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now compare to what Paul wrote...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
OSAS teaches that salvation is purely positional in nature. It utterly denies the union with God that is manifest in the real salvation experience. When one is in union with God one cannot be in rebellion. The moment rebellion takes place is the moment there is no union. Salvation is FROM sin, not in it.
OSAS teaches saved IN sin.
Statements like this set alarm bells off for me...
If you mean "willful sin" in that statement then you do not understand salvation. If you mean sins of ignorance, ie. doing the wrong thing unintentionally then that is a different matter.
Willful sin is always a sin unto death. Always.
Satan wants people to believe that willful sin is not unto death. If Satan can convince people that they can engage in a single act of rebellion to God and not surely die then those convinced are doomed. The one lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is the most dangerous lie to ever be mouthed into existence. So many believe it even though it is the very first lie of Satan in the Bible.
Be very, very careful in what you believe and examine everything very carefully. If your heart is genuinely honest you will know these things are true as none of this is complicated.
S
The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
The issue of "failure" can only be related to sins of ignorance. Willful rebellion is the forsaking of the light and the very moment one does such a thing spiritual death is wrought. To deny that is to believe that one can sin and not surely die.
If one has an understanding of the right way and willfully refuses and instead goes the wrong way, it is an act of death. It is the manifest state of "doing evil" that God saves us from. God simply cannot and will not forgive any individual who is in a state of rebellion. OSAS ignores this.
OSAS proponents will NEVER EVER EVER quote scriptures like these...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The engrafted word is what actually saves the soul. The Word of God has to be received inwardly in order for the salvation of the soul to take place. This cannot occur in rebellion which is why James teach that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, not just some of it.
Repentance purges the soul of rebellion where we may receive God within. Look at the words of Jesus...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now compare to what Paul wrote...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
OSAS teaches that salvation is purely positional in nature. It utterly denies the union with God that is manifest in the real salvation experience. When one is in union with God one cannot be in rebellion. The moment rebellion takes place is the moment there is no union. Salvation is FROM sin, not in it.
OSAS teaches saved IN sin.
Statements like this set alarm bells off for me...
If you mean "willful sin" in that statement then you do not understand salvation. If you mean sins of ignorance, ie. doing the wrong thing unintentionally then that is a different matter.
Willful sin is always a sin unto death. Always.
Satan wants people to believe that willful sin is not unto death. If Satan can convince people that they can engage in a single act of rebellion to God and not surely die then those convinced are doomed. The one lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is the most dangerous lie to ever be mouthed into existence. So many believe it even though it is the very first lie of Satan in the Bible.
Be very, very careful in what you believe and examine everything very carefully. If your heart is genuinely honest you will know these things are true as none of this is complicated.
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
The issue of "failure" can only be related to sins of ignorance. Willful rebellion is the forsaking of the light and the very moment one does such a thing spiritual death is wrought. To deny that is to believe that one can sin and not surely die.
If one has an understanding of the right way and willfully refuses and instead goes the wrong way, it is an act of death. It is the manifest state of "doing evil" that God saves us from. God simply cannot and will not forgive any individual who is in a state of rebellion. OSAS ignores this.
OSAS proponents will NEVER EVER EVER quote scriptures like these...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The engrafted word is what actually saves the soul. The Word of God has to be received inwardly in order for the salvation of the soul to take place. This cannot occur in rebellion which is why James teach that we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, not just some of it.
Repentance purges the soul of rebellion where we may receive God within. Look at the words of Jesus...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now compare to what Paul wrote...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
OSAS teaches that salvation is purely positional in nature. It utterly denies the union with God that is manifest in the real salvation experience. When one is in union with God one cannot be in rebellion. The moment rebellion takes place is the moment there is no union. Salvation is FROM sin, not in it.
OSAS teaches saved IN sin.
Statements like this set alarm bells off for me...
If you mean "willful sin" in that statement then you do not understand salvation. If you mean sins of ignorance, ie. doing the wrong thing unintentionally then that is a different matter.
Willful sin is always a sin unto death. Always.
Satan wants people to believe that willful sin is not unto death. If Satan can convince people that they can engage in a single act of rebellion to God and not surely die then those convinced are doomed. The one lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is the most dangerous lie to ever be mouthed into existence. So many believe it even though it is the very first lie of Satan in the Bible.
Be very, very careful in what you believe and examine everything very carefully. If your heart is genuinely honest you will know these things are true as none of this is complicated.
stumbling=having a bad day at work, coming home to chaos and getting angry and yelling at your kids.
I would say that most people on this site are the latter except the ones who can't admit they're the latter.....they just have themselves deceived into thinking they are all that and a box of wheaties.
OSAS is merely a symptom of a much greater deception and that deception is the lie of "abstract salvation."
Abstract or positional salvation is a view resultant of the teaching of Original Sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are born in a state where they CANNOT obey God. Thus "sin we will and sin we must." This in turn redefines "grace" into being an "offset to inability."
Grace is not an offset to inability, grace is simply God's drawing upon the hearts of people when influencing them the way they ought to go, an influence given freely and with long suffering despite the rebellion of people.
When people view grace as an "inability offset" then "repentance" is redefined to be a mere "confession of sinfulness," a confession of inability. Thus people are deceived into a "wait upon God to change me" attitude. The Penal Substitution doctrine then provides the the "meanwhile cloak" for the ongoing state of manifest wickedness whilst people "wait on God" for they are a "work in progress."
All this is an ingenious and diabolical deception wrought by Satan and his ministers who appear as ministers of righteousness.
The vast majority of professing Christianity is enslaved totally to this delusion and this explains why they simply cannot deal with any notion of "escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust" as well as deny that repentance brings about the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires.
God literally and manifestly saves us from wickedness. God literally and manifestly saves us from sin. Salvation is real and powerful. God is not weak. God really saves people.
This notion of being saved and left in a wretches state is such foolishness. Paul's writings are butchered beyond belief by these people. It is not a slight error but the very work of Satan in our midst.
Satan is a roaring lion, not a kitty cat.
Abstract or positional salvation is a view resultant of the teaching of Original Sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are born in a state where they CANNOT obey God. Thus "sin we will and sin we must." This in turn redefines "grace" into being an "offset to inability."
Grace is not an offset to inability, grace is simply God's drawing upon the hearts of people when influencing them the way they ought to go, an influence given freely and with long suffering despite the rebellion of people.
When people view grace as an "inability offset" then "repentance" is redefined to be a mere "confession of sinfulness," a confession of inability. Thus people are deceived into a "wait upon God to change me" attitude. The Penal Substitution doctrine then provides the the "meanwhile cloak" for the ongoing state of manifest wickedness whilst people "wait on God" for they are a "work in progress."
All this is an ingenious and diabolical deception wrought by Satan and his ministers who appear as ministers of righteousness.
The vast majority of professing Christianity is enslaved totally to this delusion and this explains why they simply cannot deal with any notion of "escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust" as well as deny that repentance brings about the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires.
God literally and manifestly saves us from wickedness. God literally and manifestly saves us from sin. Salvation is real and powerful. God is not weak. God really saves people.
This notion of being saved and left in a wretches state is such foolishness. Paul's writings are butchered beyond belief by these people. It is not a slight error but the very work of Satan in our midst.
Satan is a roaring lion, not a kitty cat.
S
Here's the interesting question..where did you get your theology?
Would you consider Charles Finney a good source of information?
I'm just wondering if you've read his positions on these sorts of things. He is a major cause of the issues with churches today in many ways. As RC Sproul has stated, he out-Pelagianized Pelagius. He created such a vacuum concerning theology that four major cults were borne within 250 miles of his center of influence....Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism, Christian Science and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Finney was a heretic who denied penal substitutionary atonement, justification by faith alone, imputed or acquired righteousness, moral inability and original sin. His position caused many to believe in sinless perfectionism (the ones who were consistent with it). Of course he rejected eternal security for the believer..he basically believed that you had to become righteous to be accounted righteous in God's sight.
Reading his teachings is like drinking from the toilet bowl in my opinion.
Would you consider Charles Finney a good source of information?
I'm just wondering if you've read his positions on these sorts of things. He is a major cause of the issues with churches today in many ways. As RC Sproul has stated, he out-Pelagianized Pelagius. He created such a vacuum concerning theology that four major cults were borne within 250 miles of his center of influence....Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism, Christian Science and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Finney was a heretic who denied penal substitutionary atonement, justification by faith alone, imputed or acquired righteousness, moral inability and original sin. His position caused many to believe in sinless perfectionism (the ones who were consistent with it). Of course he rejected eternal security for the believer..he basically believed that you had to become righteous to be accounted righteous in God's sight.
Reading his teachings is like drinking from the toilet bowl in my opinion.