OSAS doctrine denies the faith
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
I wouldn't fit into any of those categories.
A person who is saved is eternally secure, but along with that comes a regenerated nature that wants to obey God. Obedience is never perfect, though, and believers can stumble and fall back into sin. They can even backslide for a long time.
God restores the relationship, and their regenerate nature seeks that restoration.
By the way, what do you think of Charles Finney and his theology? I'd like to know if you are being influenced by it. If you could reply directly to that question, I would appreciate it.
A person who is saved is eternally secure, but along with that comes a regenerated nature that wants to obey God. Obedience is never perfect, though, and believers can stumble and fall back into sin. They can even backslide for a long time.
God restores the relationship, and their regenerate nature seeks that restoration.
By the way, what do you think of Charles Finney and his theology? I'd like to know if you are being influenced by it. If you could reply directly to that question, I would appreciate it.
Let us reason together please.
Originally Posted by Skinski7
The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.
I am sorry but that statement is ridiculous. You may know people (who are possibly not saved) who talk like that, but a true believer in eternal security sees it as being a consequence of the fact that it is Jesus Who is saving them (John 6.39; 10.27-28). They believe that God is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13). That is why they seek to work out what God has worked in them (Phil 2.12). They believe that God has made them a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5.17). They believe that if they slacken off in allowing Him to live through them they will be subject to chastening, even severe chastening (Heb 12.3 ff). You argue in favour of being able to sin and not surely die in this paragraph. The consequences for what you call "slackening off in allowing God to live through them" is "severe chastening."
The Bible teaches different. It says...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Willful sin after having entered into the New Covenant and having therefore been sanctified by the blood reaps immediate condemnation. You don't believe that even though the Bible clearly states it is a fact in the above passage.
The chastening of Hebrews 12 is presented in the context of sins not unto death, ie. sins of ignorance, not the "willful sin" of Hebrews chapter 10. We cannot treat the Bible as a menu and pick little bits and pieces whilst ignoring other parts. The message of the Bible is a harmonious whole.
The "will and to do of His good pleasure" is a reference to growing in grace and knowledge to maturity, NOT sinning/rebelling less. There is no rebellion to God in salvation, none.
You assert that Christianity is a mere "belief" in being a "new creation in Christ" whereby one still "slacks off in allowing God to live through them."
"Slacking off in allowing God to live through you" = "Refusing to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ."
It is to reject grace and trample the blood of Jesus Christ.
The statement of mine quoted above stands true and your response affirms its truth because you assert this positional/abstract notion of salvation.
On the other hand they rejoice because He has made it possible for them to be accounted righteous in Christ (Rom 3.24-25). They are confident that there is no judgment on those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8.1). And the consequence of their being in that position is that the Spirit works in them to counteract and defeat the fleshly nature (Rom 8.2 ff).
Romans 8:1 says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. You are disconnecting the WALK from the "no condemnation." Look at the next 3 verses...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. We are set free from sinning unto death via abiding in Jesus Christ. That means when we are WALKING according to the Spirit we are not in a situation where we are sinning unto death. This is how the power of God works, it is MANIFEST and we experience it as a MANIFEST REALITY. It is not positional or abstract at all.
The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who WALK after the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The sons of God are only those whom are led by the Spirit of God. If one is not led by that Spirit then one is not a son of God. Remember the words of Jesus...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Disobedience to God does not mix with being set free from condemnation. We cannot obey Satan and God at the same time. We have to choose whom we will serve and not be double minded about it.
Justification is connected to "redemption IN Jesus Christ."
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Being IN Christ is an abiding state. Being IN Christ means to be abiding in the Spirit of His life (Rom 8:2). There is no condemnation upon us if we are in that state. If we are willfully sinning there is most definitely condemnation. Remember Heb 10:26 specifically states that there is only a fearful expectation of judgement if we willfully sin, this is why the willful has to stop. Stop as in NEVER again.
Your problem is that you think in terms of 'OSAS' instead of the saving power of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not dependent on us (any more than our being cured in a hospital is due to us). You are wrong. The problem is with what you believe. Salvation is dependent on "working together" with God.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
You have to completely ignore that verse or pretend that it doesn't mean what it says in order to uphold what you believe. Paul wrote those words immediately after...
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We are only "made the righteousness of God IN Him" so long as we are "working together with Him" which means we are abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. There is NOTHING positional about it, it is a practical manifest reality. It has to do with the true condition of our hearts.
"Workers together" from 2Cor 6:1 means this...
sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Cooperation requires TWO not one. If we do not cooperate with God then we receive God's grace in vain.
Look at how James ties the forsaking of rebellion to God with receiving the implanted whereby an outcome of salvation can be achieved.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
God leads the way with the word but we have to DO it. Salvation is dependent on us DOING.
Even Jesus said that it is the DOERS who will inherit the kingdom.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
How can you possible proclaim that salvation is not dependent on us? It is certainly not dependent on "us alone" for we cannot save ourselves apart from the grace of God, we cannot save ourselves apart from the implanted word, we cannot save ourselves apart from the Spirit of life In Jesus Christ. Yet that doesn't mean we have nothing to do with it. Jesus said we have to strive, dig deep, count the cost, die in order to live, keep his commandments, keep his words etc. You are denyiing the very words of Jesus Christ. Why deny those teachings? It is foolish.
It is a consequence of Jesus Christ being our SAVIOUR. It is a task in which He will not fail. It is He Who is saving us, not we ourselves. And warning passages are there like spurs to spur us on in our walk with Him. But they do not mean that He will desert us or fail in His task. If an Isrealite had refused to leave Egypt would they have been saved from bondage?
Well would they?
Jesus is only the saviour of those whom follow Him. Those who refuse to follow Him receive the grace of God in vain, that is what the Bible teaches.
WE have to build our houses upon the rock. God does not build our houses for us. You are asserting that we don't have to do anything and that God does it all. If you stick that that belief then obviously you don't really believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you believe in some other Jesus as twisted by the doctrines and rhetoric of men.
Originally Posted by Skinski7
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. That is exactly what Paul was accused of. Because he also taught that salvation was wholly the consequence of the gracious activity of God (Rom 3.24-29) he was accused of saying 'let us sin that grace may abound' (Rom 6.1). As he then pointed out (Rom 6.2-11) that was wholly false. He pointed out that because salvation was the activity of the unmerited love and favour of God the consequence was that Christians died to themselves and allowed Christ to live through them. They reckoned on themselves as dead to sin and alive to God (Rom 6.11).
Salvation is via grace THROUGH faith and that is speaking of the working dynamic of cooperation which produces purity of heart. Grace is not "unmerited favour," grace is the free provision of God provided to all men to direct them to life. Grace is the divine influence of God upon our hearts. We have to make grace effectual to the saving of the soul through a working faith. In other words we have to DO what God commands us to do.
We have to YIELD to God.
Of course salvation is the result of the gracious activity of God, the grace of God is the light directing all men where to go. Without grace there would be total darkness and we would be lost. When Paul spoke of "abounding grace" the context is that of how God's grace has remained available to men even when they are still in rebellion, thus grace has abounded when sin has abounded. Paul asks if we should continue in sin that grace abound even more? Certainly not he says, for if we have indeed experiences the cross then we ought not be serving sin anymore. Our old man is crucified, the body of sin destroyed, whereby we no longer serve sin. He who is dead is freed from sin. This has to happen.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Believe what the text actually says and stop imposing rhetoric upon it. The law was used to set a standard which contrasted wickedness. Yet when wickedness was abounding the grace of God abounded even more. Does this mean we ought to sin magnify grace? NO!
Don't we realise that if we are dead to sin then how could it be possible to continue in that which we are dead to?
Paul connects being "baptised into the death of Christ" with "being dead to sin" with a cessation of "serving sin." Instead we WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. We don't walk in the oldness of sin if we are Christians. We may err in ignorance and need correction (ala 1Cor in promoting one teacher over another or using human courts to solve disagreements between Chrisitans) but we don't SERVE sin, we don't sin willfully. We are slaves to whom we obey and obedience is related to how we exercise our will.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
There is no possible way you van believe what the above scriptures plainly state and at the same time assert things like...
The Bible specifically teaches that WE HAVE TO OBEY. Obedience from the heart to the doctrine once delivered is what sets us free from sin. That is Bible. Why oppose it?
Salvation is All to do with us being made perfect before God. Initially we are saved from the guilt of sin (Tit 3.4-7; Rom 3.24-29). We are ACCOUNTED as righteous and perfect in Christ (Rom 3.24; Heb 10.14). Consequent on that our Saviour works on us and in us to save us from the power of sin (1 Cor 1.18). His final aim is that we be presented perfect before God (Eph 5.25-27; Phil 3.21). Yes there is growth in salvation but such growth is not rebelling less or slacking off less. The growth is the purging of ignorance as we grow to maturity.
We are only accounted righteous so much as we have a faith that works by love which fulfills the law. God reckons FAITH as righteousness and faith has a corresponding walk because faith is ACTIVE not passive.
OSAS teaches that there is NOTHING a "saved" individual can do which can bring condemnation. Thus if a "saved" individual knowingly steals a lollipop they still remain justified. Likewise if a "saved" individual knowingly rapes and murders people they still remain justified also.
OSAS = Saved IN sin.
The Bible teaches saved FROM sin (Mat 1:21) and the Bible teaches that we are slaves to whom we obey. If one is obeying sin then one is still in bondage serving sin, they have not been saved from it.
The salvation of OSAS is not salvation at all, it is a mere descriptive term for some nebulous abstract position which people can find comfort in whilst they continue in their rebellion to God.
Please consider what I have written. Read it a few times and reflect on it. Feel free to ask any serious questions. Quote a section and use the Bible to demonstrate it false. I am happy to engage. Please do not resort to empty quips, name calling or empty rhetoric. Respond with substance.
valiant;2078134[QUOTE said:
The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.
The Bible teaches different. It says...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Willful sin after having entered into the New Covenant and having therefore been sanctified by the blood reaps immediate condemnation. You don't believe that even though the Bible clearly states it is a fact in the above passage.
The chastening of Hebrews 12 is presented in the context of sins not unto death, ie. sins of ignorance, not the "willful sin" of Hebrews chapter 10. We cannot treat the Bible as a menu and pick little bits and pieces whilst ignoring other parts. The message of the Bible is a harmonious whole.
The "will and to do of His good pleasure" is a reference to growing in grace and knowledge to maturity, NOT sinning/rebelling less. There is no rebellion to God in salvation, none.
You assert that Christianity is a mere "belief" in being a "new creation in Christ" whereby one still "slacks off in allowing God to live through them."
"Slacking off in allowing God to live through you" = "Refusing to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ."
It is to reject grace and trample the blood of Jesus Christ.
The statement of mine quoted above stands true and your response affirms its truth because you assert this positional/abstract notion of salvation.
On the other hand they rejoice because He has made it possible for them to be accounted righteous in Christ (Rom 3.24-25). They are confident that there is no judgment on those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8.1). And the consequence of their being in that position is that the Spirit works in them to counteract and defeat the fleshly nature (Rom 8.2 ff).
Romans 8:1 says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. You are disconnecting the WALK from the "no condemnation." Look at the next 3 verses...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. We are set free from sinning unto death via abiding in Jesus Christ. That means when we are WALKING according to the Spirit we are not in a situation where we are sinning unto death. This is how the power of God works, it is MANIFEST and we experience it as a MANIFEST REALITY. It is not positional or abstract at all.
The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who WALK after the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The sons of God are only those whom are led by the Spirit of God. If one is not led by that Spirit then one is not a son of God. Remember the words of Jesus...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Disobedience to God does not mix with being set free from condemnation. We cannot obey Satan and God at the same time. We have to choose whom we will serve and not be double minded about it.
Justification is connected to "redemption IN Jesus Christ."
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Being IN Christ is an abiding state. Being IN Christ means to be abiding in the Spirit of His life (Rom 8:2). There is no condemnation upon us if we are in that state. If we are willfully sinning there is most definitely condemnation. Remember Heb 10:26 specifically states that there is only a fearful expectation of judgement if we willfully sin, this is why the willful has to stop. Stop as in NEVER again.
Your problem is that you think in terms of 'OSAS' instead of the saving power of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not dependent on us (any more than our being cured in a hospital is due to us). You are wrong. The problem is with what you believe. Salvation is dependent on "working together" with God.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
You have to completely ignore that verse or pretend that it doesn't mean what it says in order to uphold what you believe. Paul wrote those words immediately after...
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We are only "made the righteousness of God IN Him" so long as we are "working together with Him" which means we are abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. There is NOTHING positional about it, it is a practical manifest reality. It has to do with the true condition of our hearts.
"Workers together" from 2Cor 6:1 means this...
sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Cooperation requires TWO not one. If we do not cooperate with God then we receive God's grace in vain.
Look at how James ties the forsaking of rebellion to God with receiving the implanted whereby an outcome of salvation can be achieved.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
God leads the way with the word but we have to DO it. Salvation is dependent on us DOING.
Even Jesus said that it is the DOERS who will inherit the kingdom.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
How can you possible proclaim that salvation is not dependent on us? It is certainly not dependent on "us alone" for we cannot save ourselves apart from the grace of God, we cannot save ourselves apart from the implanted word, we cannot save ourselves apart from the Spirit of life In Jesus Christ. Yet that doesn't mean we have nothing to do with it. Jesus said we have to strive, dig deep, count the cost, die in order to live, keep his commandments, keep his words etc. You are denyiing the very words of Jesus Christ. Why deny those teachings? It is foolish.
It is a consequence of Jesus Christ being our SAVIOUR. It is a task in which He will not fail. It is He Who is saving us, not we ourselves. And warning passages are there like spurs to spur us on in our walk with Him. But they do not mean that He will desert us or fail in His task. If an Isrealite had refused to leave Egypt would they have been saved from bondage?
Well would they?
Jesus is only the saviour of those whom follow Him. Those who refuse to follow Him receive the grace of God in vain, that is what the Bible teaches.
WE have to build our houses upon the rock. God does not build our houses for us. You are asserting that we don't have to do anything and that God does it all. If you stick that that belief then obviously you don't really believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you believe in some other Jesus as twisted by the doctrines and rhetoric of men.
It is impossible to hold to OSAS and teach that salvation has anything to do with manifest purity of heart and a true setting free from sin. That is the major issue.
Salvation is via grace THROUGH faith and that is speaking of the working dynamic of cooperation which produces purity of heart. Grace is not "unmerited favour," grace is the free provision of God provided to all men to direct them to life. Grace is the divine influence of God upon our hearts. We have to make grace effectual to the saving of the soul through a working faith. In other words we have to DO what God commands us to do.
We have to YIELD to God.
Of course salvation is the result of the gracious activity of God, the grace of God is the light directing all men where to go. Without grace there would be total darkness and we would be lost. When Paul spoke of "abounding grace" the context is that of how God's grace has remained available to men even when they are still in rebellion, thus grace has abounded when sin has abounded. Paul asks if we should continue in sin that grace abound even more? Certainly not he says, for if we have indeed experiences the cross then we ought not be serving sin anymore. Our old man is crucified, the body of sin destroyed, whereby we no longer serve sin. He who is dead is freed from sin. This has to happen.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Believe what the text actually says and stop imposing rhetoric upon it. The law was used to set a standard which contrasted wickedness. Yet when wickedness was abounding the grace of God abounded even more. Does this mean we ought to sin magnify grace? NO!
Don't we realise that if we are dead to sin then how could it be possible to continue in that which we are dead to?
Paul connects being "baptised into the death of Christ" with "being dead to sin" with a cessation of "serving sin." Instead we WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. We don't walk in the oldness of sin if we are Christians. We may err in ignorance and need correction (ala 1Cor in promoting one teacher over another or using human courts to solve disagreements between Chrisitans) but we don't SERVE sin, we don't sin willfully. We are slaves to whom we obey and obedience is related to how we exercise our will.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
There is no possible way you van believe what the above scriptures plainly state and at the same time assert things like...
The Bible specifically teaches that WE HAVE TO OBEY. Obedience from the heart to the doctrine once delivered is what sets us free from sin. That is Bible. Why oppose it?
Salvation is All to do with us being made perfect before God. Initially we are saved from the guilt of sin (Tit 3.4-7; Rom 3.24-29). We are ACCOUNTED as righteous and perfect in Christ (Rom 3.24; Heb 10.14). Consequent on that our Saviour works on us and in us to save us from the power of sin (1 Cor 1.18). His final aim is that we be presented perfect before God (Eph 5.25-27; Phil 3.21). Yes there is growth in salvation but such growth is not rebelling less or slacking off less. The growth is the purging of ignorance as we grow to maturity.
We are only accounted righteous so much as we have a faith that works by love which fulfills the law. God reckons FAITH as righteousness and faith has a corresponding walk because faith is ACTIVE not passive.
OSAS teaches that there is NOTHING a "saved" individual can do which can bring condemnation. Thus if a "saved" individual knowingly steals a lollipop they still remain justified. Likewise if a "saved" individual knowingly rapes and murders people they still remain justified also.
OSAS = Saved IN sin.
The Bible teaches saved FROM sin (Mat 1:21) and the Bible teaches that we are slaves to whom we obey. If one is obeying sin then one is still in bondage serving sin, they have not been saved from it.
The salvation of OSAS is not salvation at all, it is a mere descriptive term for some nebulous abstract position which people can find comfort in whilst they continue in their rebellion to God.
We cannot just pick random verses, we have to look at the whole counsel of God. True faith is shown by our works, our works is not what saves us. This will be my only post in this thread, I do not want to argue over the meaning of the Bible. We are to love our brothers and sisters in Christ, so I am not going to argue over who is correct. This is just stating what I believe the Bible is saying and what the Lord has revealed to me.
Galatians 2:16- "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
Belief in Jesus is what saves us, we have to accept his gift. There is more to it than that though, because even the demons believe. We are called to build a relationship with God.
James 2:18-20 clearly says that true faith contains works. Our actions will show that we are truly believers. I like the example of the disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection. They preached what they believed, and were even willing to die for it. This shows that they truly believed what they taught.
1 John 1:8- "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." Jesus' blood cleanses us from our sin and if we confess, He will forgive us.
James 5:19-20-"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
Where does this say that they are a true believer? Even the demons know the truth. There is a difference between true believing and knowing the truth. We are called to bring people to the truth that have fallen from it. From there, they have to make the decision to truly follow Christ.
Ephesians 1:13-14- "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,who is the guaranteeof our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory."
1John 2:19- "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
We are given the seal of the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus' gift. If we are not true believers, we can depart, for if we stay, we are believers.
Romans 8:38-39 "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
John 10:27-28- "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."
If we leave God, we were never truly of Him and living for Him. We will be known by our fruit if we are truly Christians.
Galatians 5:13-15- "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."
Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...."
If we truly believe in God and live for Him, our actions and fruit will show it. But the Bible also makes it clear that nothing can take true believers from God's hands. If we truly believe in God and live for him, we will stay with God and our actions will show this. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and is our seal.
Galatians 2:16- "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
Belief in Jesus is what saves us, we have to accept his gift. There is more to it than that though, because even the demons believe. We are called to build a relationship with God.
James 2:18-20 clearly says that true faith contains works. Our actions will show that we are truly believers. I like the example of the disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection. They preached what they believed, and were even willing to die for it. This shows that they truly believed what they taught.
1 John 1:8- "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." Jesus' blood cleanses us from our sin and if we confess, He will forgive us.
James 5:19-20-"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
Where does this say that they are a true believer? Even the demons know the truth. There is a difference between true believing and knowing the truth. We are called to bring people to the truth that have fallen from it. From there, they have to make the decision to truly follow Christ.
Ephesians 1:13-14- "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,who is the guaranteeof our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory."
1John 2:19- "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
We are given the seal of the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus' gift. If we are not true believers, we can depart, for if we stay, we are believers.
Romans 8:38-39 "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
John 10:27-28- "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."
If we leave God, we were never truly of Him and living for Him. We will be known by our fruit if we are truly Christians.
Galatians 5:13-15- "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."
Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...."
If we truly believe in God and live for Him, our actions and fruit will show it. But the Bible also makes it clear that nothing can take true believers from God's hands. If we truly believe in God and live for him, we will stay with God and our actions will show this. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and is our seal.
The natural passions of the flesh are not sinful.
Original Sin teaches that Adam passed down a defect of nature wrought by his sin. Yet the Bible teaches that the natural passions were present BEFORE Adam sinned...
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Temptation is common to man. Temptation is natural. Sin is not natural. Sin is a violation of nature.
This is what happened to Eve...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Eve was drawn away by the lust of her eyes and the desire to be wise. Eve was enticed into sin and Adam likewise in joining his wife in her crime.
The descendents of Adam were and are born with the same natural passions and sin is a result of the same yielding to enticement. Sin is a CHOICE.
Original Sin blames a birth defect wrought into the human race by Adam for sinning. Thus under the notion of Original Sing being true people blame their birth nature instead of coming clean about the choice they CHOSE to make.
We are all accountable for our own sin. To blame it on a birth defect or on Adam is irresponsible.
If Satan can convince people that sin is the result of a birth state then people easily conclude, "hey it is not my fault, I cannot help it." Thus "sin you will and sin you must" is upheld in the heart. One CANNOT repent if one does not take full responsibility for their crimes against God.
There early church refuted the notion of Original Sin. The Gnostics taught a dual nature doctrine and blamed sin on the flesh. Augustine was indoctrinated into this teaching by the Manicheans as well as heavily influenced by Neo-Platonic philosophy. Augustine brought the dual nature teaching into Christianity and called it "Original Sin."
Original Sin is a dangerous deception.
Here is a fully annotated documentary I put together in regards to the origin of Original Sin and how it infiltrated nominal Christianity.
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
I duplicated all the research of the speaker and I made images of much of the material and annotated in tangent with the speakers words. I am tempted to make another documentary on the subject which goes even deeper because this one really only just touches the surface.
Original Sin teaches that Adam passed down a defect of nature wrought by his sin. Yet the Bible teaches that the natural passions were present BEFORE Adam sinned...
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Temptation is common to man. Temptation is natural. Sin is not natural. Sin is a violation of nature.
This is what happened to Eve...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Eve was drawn away by the lust of her eyes and the desire to be wise. Eve was enticed into sin and Adam likewise in joining his wife in her crime.
The descendents of Adam were and are born with the same natural passions and sin is a result of the same yielding to enticement. Sin is a CHOICE.
Original Sin blames a birth defect wrought into the human race by Adam for sinning. Thus under the notion of Original Sing being true people blame their birth nature instead of coming clean about the choice they CHOSE to make.
We are all accountable for our own sin. To blame it on a birth defect or on Adam is irresponsible.
If Satan can convince people that sin is the result of a birth state then people easily conclude, "hey it is not my fault, I cannot help it." Thus "sin you will and sin you must" is upheld in the heart. One CANNOT repent if one does not take full responsibility for their crimes against God.
There early church refuted the notion of Original Sin. The Gnostics taught a dual nature doctrine and blamed sin on the flesh. Augustine was indoctrinated into this teaching by the Manicheans as well as heavily influenced by Neo-Platonic philosophy. Augustine brought the dual nature teaching into Christianity and called it "Original Sin."
Original Sin is a dangerous deception.
Here is a fully annotated documentary I put together in regards to the origin of Original Sin and how it infiltrated nominal Christianity.
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
I duplicated all the research of the speaker and I made images of much of the material and annotated in tangent with the speakers words. I am tempted to make another documentary on the subject which goes even deeper because this one really only just touches the surface.
Last edited:
Here is an article I wrote on Romans 5:12 where I clearly show its context by carefully comparing scripture with scripture.
The Pearl of Great Price: Spiritual Death
Augustine twisted Romans 5:12 because he fell victim to a mistranslation found in the Latin Vulgate in which it is "in whom" is used instead of "because of" or "for that."
Augustine took Hebrews 7:9 and read the Gnostic fundamentals he held to into that verse and thus concluded that all human beings were actually present in Adam when he sinned. Thus by combining his views of both Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:9 Augustine concluded that all human beings were actually guilty of Adam's sin and that all human beings also "died" in Adam.
The Bible does not teach what Augustine concluded. Augustine is the father of the inability doctrine (born a sinner) which pervades the nominal church today.
The Pearl of Great Price: Spiritual Death
Augustine twisted Romans 5:12 because he fell victim to a mistranslation found in the Latin Vulgate in which it is "in whom" is used instead of "because of" or "for that."
Augustine took Hebrews 7:9 and read the Gnostic fundamentals he held to into that verse and thus concluded that all human beings were actually present in Adam when he sinned. Thus by combining his views of both Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:9 Augustine concluded that all human beings were actually guilty of Adam's sin and that all human beings also "died" in Adam.
The Bible does not teach what Augustine concluded. Augustine is the father of the inability doctrine (born a sinner) which pervades the nominal church today.
We can only reason together if you present your opponent's case fairly and accurately. I repeat your portrayal of those who believe in eternal security was RIDICULOUS. It was a TOTAL PARODY. You set up a MAN OF STRAW. It had nothing to do with the truth. It is YOUR statements which are empty and pure rhetoric.
S
To be succinct, Charles Finney denied the fundamentals of Evangelical Christianity, including the following: Original Sin, Imputed Righteousness, Justification by Faith Alone, Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
Which of these do you deny? All of them?
Charles Finney was worse than a Pelagian. He out-Pelagianized Pelagius.
Which of these do you deny? All of them?
Charles Finney was worse than a Pelagian. He out-Pelagianized Pelagius.
The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.
Your problem is that you do not understand the Scriptures. The writer was writing to JEWS who were considering following Christ and were being deterred by the possibility of severe persecution. What he is pointing out here is that if they sin wilfully (as we all do) AFTER they have received the knowledge of the truth (after they have been made aware of Jesus Christ as their Messiah Who was sacrificed for their sins) they can no longer rely on Judaistic sacrifices. 'There remains no more a sacrifice for sins'. The Old Testament sacrifices are no longer valid.
Furthermore they will be crucifying Jesus Christ afresh, for they will be deliberately siding with what their fathers did.
It doesn't teach what you say at all. YOU have sinned wilfully since you were converted (I will assume that you have been converted). Did that immediately result in your having no further hope? Of course not. You repented and God forgave you. That is why we pray daily, 'forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.' It is because we KNOW our wilful sins can be forgiven.
Last edited:
Romans 5:12-19
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I'll just go by what the bible actually says. I think I've seen enough of your commentary.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I'll just go by what the bible actually says. I think I've seen enough of your commentary.