OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Skinski7]

Use your reason and believe what the Bible actually says.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

The number one issue in regards to OSAS is it redefines salvation, by necessity, to being something that is abstract or positional.

Originally Posted by valiant;2078134
I am sorry but that statement is ridiculous. You may know people (who are possibly not saved) who talk like that, but a true believer in eternal security sees it as being a consequence of the fact that it is Jesus Who is saving them (John 6.39; 10.27-28). They believe that God is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13). That is why they seek to work out what God has worked in them (Phil 2.12). They believe that God has made them a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5.17). They believe that if they slacken off in allowing Him to live through them they will be subject to chastening, even severe chastening (Heb 12.3 ff).

Originally Posted by Skinski7
You argue in favour of being able to sin and not surely die in this paragraph. The consequences for what you call "slackening off in allowing God to live through them" is "severe chastening."

The Bible teaches different. It says...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Your problem is that you do not understand the Scriptures. The writer was writing to JEWS who were considering following Christ and were being deterred by the possibility of severe persecution. The writer is speaking of the man who has been sanctified by the blood.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

My problem is not that I don't understand scripture. The problem is with you who doesn't actually believe what is plainly says whereby you attempt to twist it into meaning something else more agreeable.

The writer of Hebrews is speaking of how the New Covenant actually works in Hebrews 10, the writer explains how one approaches God via the blood, comes clean, and is cleansed...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

It is in the context of this cleansing that the writer then writes...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

God's grace is not a license to sin. God's grace is not a get out of jail free card to be used at our leisure. To treat it as such it to trample it, it is to treat it as cheap and unholy.

We are cleansed in order to stay clean. To willfully defile ourselves with rebellion again after having been cleansed is a serious matter, there is no ongoing sacrifice for that. There is no such thing as a sin/repent/sin/repent/obey/disobey/obey/disobey Christianity. Repentance is not meant to be repeated. There is no guarantee of a second repentance because the defilement willful sin wrought from a full knowledge of the truth is extreme. We are warned to not put ourselves in such a situation. This warning means nothing to those whom have a false views of repentance, sin, salvation, faith, grace and why Jesus died. People like you, who just blow it off and say it doesn't mean what it says. The text says...

If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

The text says...

How much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It means what it says.

What he is pointing out here is that if they sin wilfully (as we all do) AFTER they have received the knowledge of the truth (after they have been made aware of Jesus Christ as their Messiah Who was sacrificed for their sins) they can no longer rely on Judaistic sacrifices. 'There remains no more a sacrifice for sins'. The Old Testament sacrifices are no longer valid.

The writer did not say that. You are saying that. The writer speaks of "willful sin" bringing condemnation because it treats the blood by which the willful sinner was sanctified as an unholy thing.

The blood has not sanctified an unrepentant Jew. The writer specifically uses the term "shall he" and relates it to "he blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified." You are ignoring that connection because you don't want the passage to be a reference to the individual cleansed in verse 22.

Our opinions mean nothing if they are not in alignment with reality.


Furthermore they will be crucifying Jesus Christ afresh, for they will be deliberately siding with what their fathers did.

The blood of Christ is meant to cleanse us of our past crimes ONCE and to go back into rebellion after having repented is to crucify Christ afresh because it is a denial of a once and for all cleansing. Those who do such a thing are treating the blood of Christ as something like a voucher they can use at their leisure. It is treating God's mercy and longsuffering with utter contempt.

Willful sin after having entered into the New Covenant and having therefore been sanctified by the blood reaps immediate condemnation. You don't believe that even though the Bible clearly states it is a fact in the above passage.

It doesn't teach what you say at all. YOU have sinned wilfully since you were converted (I will assume that you have been converted). Did that immediately result in your having no further hope? Of course not. You repented and God forgave you. That is why we pray daily, 'forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.' It is because we KNOW our wilful sins can be forgiven. I said not a word about "no future hope." What I did say that there is no forgiveness IN sin, there is only condemnation in sin. You cannot sin against God and not surely die. One single act of rebellion to God is death because God is life. To turn from life is death. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and we can only approach God through Him, the Spirit of His life. We cannot approach God in sin, we have to be set free from sin.

We ask for forgiveness of sins of ignorance. Willful sin has to stop. Hebrews 10:26 specifically speaks of WILLFUL SIN, not sins of ignorance.

Willful sin is unto death.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

"Sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness."

"sin unto death" is the equivalent of "disobedience unto unrighteousness."

We are not even to pray for sin unto death. Sin unto death is rooted in the will, it is a choice people make. God does not force the will of someone. Sinners have to repent and thus choose to forsake evil.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

The solution to sin unto death is REPENTANCE PROVEN BY DEEDS and FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST whereby one can be cleansed of their past sins. Sin not unto death requires reproof and patience for it is a result of ignorance and immaturity.

 

[gb9]

This view you're presenting is Pelagianism/Finneyism and it's heretical. It is also associated with Moral Government Theology.

Jesse Morrell amongst others are proclaiming Charles Finney's teachings.

It strips the guts right out of the gospel message, and denies core teachings of Evangelical Christianity. Original sin, moral inability, justification by faith alone, imputed or forensic righteousness and penal substitutionary atonement are all denied by these heresies. It also logically leads to sinless perfectionism if the person is consistent in their theology.

The funny thing is that these people who hold this view say the nastiest, most vile things to people they are supposedly "evangelizing" and yet declare their sinlessness.

They remind me very much of the Pharisee in this parable:

Luke 18: [SUP]9 [/SUP]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[SUP][a][/SUP] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I have seen the vileness of people who hold this theology, and it is astounding that they consider themselves to be sinless.

thank you for posting this. I have long wondered where they got this garbage they try to push from, but it most certainly was NOt from the Word.

 

[Skinski7]

Romans 5:12-19
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'll just go by what the bible actually says. I think I've seen enough of your commentary.

Which verse teaches an inherited sin nature Grandpa?

Could you point out exactly where that is taught?

Death is passed on because all sinned. It doesn't say sin is passed on because Adam sinned.

 

[Skinski7]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

1. Sin entered the world by one man.
2. That man was Adam. Before Adam there was no sin in the world.
3. Death came also by sin.

The verse does not say sin is passed on. It teaches...

Sin enters world ----------> Death enters world
All have sinned --------------> Death passed upon all men.

We see this pattern taught elsewhere in the Bible...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1. Temptation/Enticement -------------> Lust Conceived/Lust Obeyed ------------> Sin Produced
2. Sin brings forth death/death by sin.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

1. Commandment ------------> Evil Desire/Temptation ---------------> Sin
2. Sin Kills

The Bible teaches that death reigned from Adam to Moses without law even though sin is not reckoned absent of law. Death still reigned, despite this absence of the law, because people sinned against the light of their conscience.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam violated a direct commandment of God. Those between Adam and Moses violated this...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom chapter 5 says not a single word on "sin" being inherited.

 

[Skinski7]

Original Sin is a very tempting doctrine to believe because it serves as the perfect excuse for sinning.

"I was born this way."

"I cannot help it."

"I was born a sinner."

What a cop out.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is what Justin Martyr wrote about human responsibility...

Chapter 43. Responsibility asserted

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suflcr persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology

Original Sin is just ancient Gnosticism hiding in Bible clothes. It is the same with what most people perceive as Christianity today. It is just Gnosticism with a Jesus flavour.

Real Christianity involves actually DOING what Jesus said to do and actually involves FOLLOWING Him. We have no excuse to do otherwise.


Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Grandpa]

Which verse teaches an inherited sin nature Grandpa?

Could you point out exactly where that is taught?

Death is passed on because all sinned. It doesn't say sin is passed on because Adam sinned.

What difference does it make? Its all semantics.

Sin entered the world. Death is the result of it.

We all are given the Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life at birth. That's called inherited.

You can try to say its not inherited but you are wrong. Otherwise there would be some who could get through without sin, without the lust of the eyes, the flesh and pride of life. Without the need of Christ.

Just use your brain for a minute instead of trying to twist scripture. Who gave us the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life? We had it at birth. Its been passed down since Adam. Romans 5 tells you but you refuse to see or you are blind.

The exact words aren't there but the thought absolutely is. Sin and death was given to all men through Adam. Do all men sin like Adam? No, some men are even more creative at their sinning than he was...

Doesn't verse 19 tell you this???

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[sparkman]

Are you one of those guys who claims that you are sinless since salvation?

Here is what Justin Martyr wrote about human responsibility...

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Justin Martyr, Second Apology

Original Sin is just ancient Gnosticism hiding in Bible clothes. It is the same with what most people perceive as Christianity today. It is just Gnosticism with a Jesus flavour.

Real Christianity involves actually DOING what Jesus said to do and actually involves FOLLOWING Him. We have no excuse to do otherwise.


Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is an example of God appealing to peoples reasoning faculties. God wants people to repent and yield to His ways.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Original Sin is the foundation doctrine implying "sin you will and sin you must."

If "sin we will and sin we must" then why would God appeal to people to "cease to do evil" ?

So many people claim that we cannot cease to do evil and their excuse is the flesh body. They believe that the flesh itself is sinful. This is an ancient Gnostic lie and anyone can do the research in order to verify this fact.

John refutes this lie in his first epistle. Many will twist 1Joh 1:8 and use it as a proof text for "sin we will and sin we must" when the true context of that verse is in coming clean with God in initial repentance. It has nothing to do with ongoing wickedness and having to be continually washed over and over. John clearly teaches that deeds reflect true Christians.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So many people who argue in favour of sin will quote 1Joh 1:8 as proof of "sin you will and sin you must" but will NEVER quote 1Jn 2:3-6 where deeds are connected to a genuine faith.

It is the same with John chapter 3 where he warns...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Gnostics at the time were teaching that sin was a natural state due to the flesh body. Thus they would teach that one could be "in Christ" whilst still engaging in sin. The salvation of the Gnostics was purely a position held premised on ascertaining to gnosis (knowledge/enlightenment).

The modern establishment of Christianity basically teaches the same thing as the Gnostics taught way back when. The special knowledge of modern Christianity is "Jesus paid my fine" and "His righteosuness is credited to my account." If one believes that knowledge then they are pronounced "saved" and their manifest deeds have absolutely nothing to do with their saved position.

Yet John wrote...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


The children of God are manifest by the fact that they DO righteousness.

The children of God DO righteousness because they truly LOVE.

If we truly love then we don't work ill to anyone.

The modern establishment of Christianity generally treats sin as a disease wrought through a birth defect. Thus it coddles sinners in their rebellion to God by promoting "inability."

"Oh God is working on me, I am a wretched man, but I trust in the provisional legal exchange of the cross and am therefore saved." It is hogwash. The Bible doesn't teach anything like that. There was no provisional legal exchange wrought by the death of Christ on the cross. Jesus simply brought into effect the New Covenant and purchased the church. We have to forsake our rebellion to God and yield to His Spirit in order to partake in the cleansing of the blood. The result of that experience is deeds that match the profession. We truly love one another with a pure heart because we have been born again.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[sparkman]

Have you sinned since you received salvation?

Here is an example of God appealing to peoples reasoning faculties. God wants people to repent and yield to His ways.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Original Sin is the foundation doctrine implying "sin you will and sin you must."

If "sin we will and sin we must" then why would God appeal to people to "cease to do evil" ?

So many people claim that we cannot cease to do evil and their excuse is the flesh body. They believe that the flesh itself is sinful. This is an ancient Gnostic lie and anyone can do the research in order to verify this fact.

John refutes this lie in his first epistle. Many will twist 1Joh 1:8 and use it as a proof text for "sin we will and sin we must" when the true context of that verse is in coming clean with God in initial repentance. It has nothing to do with ongoing wickedness and having to be continually washed over and over. John clearly teaches that deeds reflect true Christians.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So many people who argue in favour of sin will quote 1Joh 1:8 as proof of "sin you will and sin you must" but will NEVER quote 1Jn 2:3-6 where deeds are connected to a genuine faith.

It is the same with John chapter 3 where he warns...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Gnostics at the time were teaching that sin was a natural state due to the flesh body. Thus they would teach that one could be "in Christ" whilst still engaging in sin. The salvation of the Gnostics was purely a position held premised on ascertaining to gnosis (knowledge/enlightenment).

The modern establishment of Christianity basically teaches the same thing as the Gnostics taught way back when. The special knowledge of modern Christianity is "Jesus paid my fine" and "His righteosuness is credited to my account." If one believes that knowledge then they are pronounced "saved" and their manifest deeds have absolutely nothing to do with their saved position.

Yet John wrote...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


The children of God are manifest by the fact that they DO righteousness.

The children of God DO righteousness because they truly LOVE.

If we truly love then we don't work ill to anyone.

The modern establishment of Christianity generally treats sin as a disease wrought through a birth defect. Thus it coddles sinners in their rebellion to God by promoting "inability."

"Oh God is working on me, I am a wretched man, but I trust in the provisional legal exchange of the cross and am therefore saved." It is hogwash. The Bible doesn't teach anything like that. There was no provisional legal exchange wrought by the death of Christ on the cross. Jesus simply brought into effect the New Covenant and purchased the church. We have to forsake our rebellion to God and yield to His Spirit in order to partake in the cleansing of the blood. The result of that experience is deeds that match the profession. We truly love one another with a pure heart because we have been born again.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[valiant]

Here is an example of God appealing to peoples reasoning faculties. God wants people to repent and yield to His ways.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Original Sin is the foundation doctrine implying "sin you will and sin you must."

If "sin we will and sin we must" then why would God appeal to people to "cease to do evil" ?

So many people claim that we cannot cease to do evil and their excuse is the flesh body. They believe that the flesh itself is sinful. This is an ancient Gnostic lie and anyone can do the research in order to verify this fact.

John refutes this lie in his first epistle. Many will twist 1Joh 1:8 and use it as a proof text for "sin we will and sin we must" when the true context of that verse is in coming clean with God in initial repentance. It has nothing to do with ongoing wickedness and having to be continually washed over and over. John clearly teaches that deeds reflect true Christians.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So many people who argue in favour of sin will quote 1Joh 1:8 as proof of "sin you will and sin you must" but will NEVER quote 1Jn 2:3-6 where deeds are connected to a genuine faith.

It is the same with John chapter 3 where he warns...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Gnostics at the time were teaching that sin was a natural state due to the flesh body. Thus they would teach that one could be "in Christ" whilst still engaging in sin. The salvation of the Gnostics was purely a position held premised on ascertaining to gnosis (knowledge/enlightenment).

The modern establishment of Christianity basically teaches the same thing as the Gnostics taught way back when. The special knowledge of modern Christianity is "Jesus paid my fine" and "His righteosuness is credited to my account." If one believes that knowledge then they are pronounced "saved" and their manifest deeds have absolutely nothing to do with their saved position.

Yet John wrote...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


The children of God are manifest by the fact that they DO righteousness.

The children of God DO righteousness because they truly LOVE.

If we truly love then we don't work ill to anyone.

The modern establishment of Christianity generally treats sin as a disease wrought through a birth defect. Thus it coddles sinners in their rebellion to God by promoting "inability."

"Oh God is working on me, I am a wretched man, but I trust in the provisional legal exchange of the cross and am therefore saved." It is hogwash. The Bible doesn't teach anything like that. There was no provisional legal exchange wrought by the death of Christ on the cross. Jesus simply brought into effect the New Covenant and purchased the church. We have to forsake our rebellion to God and yield to His Spirit in order to partake in the cleansing of the blood. The result of that experience is deeds that match the profession. We truly love one another with a pure heart because we have been born again.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I really don't think you should come on this site with all it sinful people. You might become tainted (or wake up to the truth about yourself). You should start a site for sinless people. Then you can talk to yourself.

 

[p_rehbein]

This really is what we end up with when someone preaches/teaches the wisdom of man rather than the Word of God. Honestly, it is truly sad, but such is the world today.

 

[Grandpa]

Original Sin is a very tempting doctrine to believe because it serves as the perfect excuse for sinning.

"I was born this way."

"I cannot help it."

"I was born a sinner."

What a cop out.

Perfect excuse for sinning?

Who are you going to give this excuse to? You don't see anyone giving an excuse in the bible. But you don't see them denying it either.

Why does the Lord Jesus say that the sinner is justified rather than the pharisee after their prayers? Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

Its not because we are trying to excuse it. Its because we are being honest.

I was born this way.

But I was re-born a different way.

These two natures fight inside me.

Therefore, my prayer will always be like the publican, the sinner. I will always ask the Lord for His Mercy. I will never tell the Lord I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners.

Its just honest. Were you born a sinner? Yes, yes you were. Did you use it as an excuse when you came to Christ? I didn't. It didn't occur to me to try and excuse anything. I just asked to be changed. If it was His Will I would have been perfected right then.

Apparently His Grace is sufficient for me, just as it was for Paul.

 

[sparkman]

I find it interesting that many people who claim to be sinless are open theists and anthropomorphize God to the extreme. The reason is clear. They need to drag Him down to their level in order to proclaim their righteousness.

They are de facto idolaters in that regard.

If they really accepted God's holiness as their standard, they would realize their spiritual nakedness. They might even come to faith and accept Jesus as their righteousness.

 

[sparkman]

Perfect excuse for sinning?

Who are you going to give this excuse to? You don't see anyone giving an excuse in the bible. But you don't see them denying it either.

Why does the Lord Jesus say that the sinner is justified rather than the pharisee after their prayers? Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

Its not because we are trying to excuse it. Its because we are being honest.

I was born this way.

But I was re-born a different way.

These two natures fight inside me.

Therefore, my prayer will always be like the publican, the sinner. I will always ask the Lord for His Mercy. I will never tell the Lord I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners.

Its just honest. Were you born a sinner? Yes, yes you were. Did you use it as an excuse when you came to Christ? I didn't. It didn't occur to me to try and excuse anything. I just asked to be changed. If it was His Will I would have been perfected right then.

Apparently His Grace is sufficient for me, just as it was for Paul.

Yes....why is it that "sinless" people always accuse others of liking their sin? It's like they do not understand that those who believe in eternal security are making no excuse for their sins. In fact, they are the ones who can be transparent about their sinfulness, instead of lying or deceiving themselves into thinking they have no sin. They are able to confess their sin and receive cleansing. You can't confess what you deny you have.

1 John 1:8-9King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Sirk]

Yes....why is it that "sinless" people always accuse others of liking their sin? It's like they do not understand that those who believe in eternal security are making no excuse for their sins. In fact, they are the ones who can be transparent about their sinfulness, instead of lying or deceiving themselves into thinking they have no sin. They are able to confess their sin and receive cleansing. You can't confess what you deny you have.

1 John 1:8-9King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It's psychological gimmickry that allows them to think they have strong faith, no doubts and no sin.

 

[Skinski7]

What difference does it make? Its all semantics. It is not mere semantics. The difference between being "born a sinner" and being "a sinner by choice" is HUGE. If we are born sinners then our sin is not our fault, we are victims. If we sinned due to a free choice then we are fully responsible for our predicament.

Sin entered the world. Death is the result of it.

We all are given the Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life at birth. That's called inherited. The passions and desires of the flesh are not sin, they are natural. The natural passions are a source of temptation. Sin is when that temptation is yielded to in discordance with the known will of God.

Sin is rebellion.

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Jesus was in a flesh body. Was Jesus sinful?

The Gnostics had a problem with Jesus being in a flesh body because they viewed the flesh as sinful. Thus they resorted to strange notions like Jesus being some kind of avatar or something. Supposed Christian theologians have had the same problems as the Gnostics and that is why doctrines like "seminal identity" were invented. They would teach that Jesus bypassed the sinful nature because sin is somehow passed down in the male sperm.

John MacArthur is a good example of a popular theologian who believes in such nonsense. John MacArthur literally believes the the sexual union between a male and a female produces sin and that Jesus bypassed this because He was born of a virgin. Is it any wonder that many people view Christianity as absurd when such nonsense is proclaimed by what many view as its popular figures?

The Bible teaches that the marriage bed is undefiled and yet John MacArthur teaches that it is utterly defiled. Unbelievable stuff.

You can try to say its not inherited but you are wrong. Otherwise there would be some who could get through without sin, without the lust of the eyes, the flesh and pride of life. Without the need of Christ. Jesus is light of all men.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It is silly to claim that in absence of Original Sin that there is no need for Jesus. Jesus is the light that shines in the darkness, without the light we would be lost in darkness. Not only that but the remission of sin is only possible via the New Covenant which Jesus established with His blood and because we have all chosen to sin we have to approach God in order to be reconciled in the way God has set forth for us.

The idea that "no original sin" means "no need for Jesus" is a silly strawman wrought from ignorance. It is rooted in a lack of understanding of what the Bible actually teaches on these things. I can understand why people constantly draw that conclusion though, for their mind is filled with this "legal exchange being necessary" in order to deal with "sin you will and sin you must." Thus if there is no "sin you will and sin you must" there is no need for the "legal exchange." The problem is that both the "legal exchange" and "sin you will and sin you must are false." It is a deception rooted in a two pronged symbiosis where both errors support each other, which is a very effective way to deceive people.

When I state that Satan is a master theologian I really mean it. The scale and ingenuity of the deception at work in the world today is absolutely mind boggling. Very few people who are under it will ever come out due to how elaborate it is and how one construct of the deception will uphold another part which serves to inoculate the mind against an expose of one part.

Just use your brain for a minute instead of trying to twist scripture. Who gave us the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life? We had it at birth. Its been passed down since Adam. Romans 5 tells you but you refuse to see or you are blind.

So what? The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life IS NOT SIN. It is simply CARNAL OR BASE. It is in the exercise our base passions where both vice and virtue are wrought.

God gave us our base carnal passions. Eve had them BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Sin is the abuse of our natural faculties. Our natural passions are not evil, they serve to draw people to evil. Sexual desire is a very good example of this. God created sexual desire for the purpose of bonding man and woman in a family unit. Gratification of sexual desire outside of this intended purpose is an abuse of its function.

Sinning is a choice and that is why God holds us all accountable for our actions.

Romans chapter 5 says not a single word about sin being inherited. Sin cannot be inherited because sin is a moral issue, not an issue of material substance. Vice and virtue are reflective of CHARACTER not flesh and blood.

We can act like animals driven exclusively by our passions and forsake the light of conscience. Or we can order our behaviour in accordance with the light revealed to us. We CHOOSE. Original Sin denies this choice.

The exact words aren't there but the thought absolutely is. Neither the exact words nor any sentiment expressing Original Sin is there at all. Don't you find it strange you cannot quote any verse from the Bible which teaches Original Sin? Sin and death was given to all men through Adam. Where does the Bible state that? We inherit physical death due to being mortal. Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life but were denied access to it after their rebellious action to God.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Do all men sin like Adam? No, some men are even more creative at their sinning than he was...

Paul wrote this...

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

That is why it is possible to sin without the law. In the very same book written by the very same author we read...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses despite the fact that sin is not imputed when there is no law. That is because death reigned even over those who did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Those people sinned without the law in the same way as the people described in Romans 2:12. It could not be clearer as to what Paul is saying here. Paul is not teaching that sin is inherited, he doesn't say that. Death is passed on to all men in the same manner that death passed onto Adam via sinning unto death. Adam sinned and Adam died. We sinned and we died. Paul even speaks of this in Chapter 7...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin unto death is only possible when knowledge of the right way is present. Hence either the law of conscience or a direct commandment from God makes sinning possible. Sin is transgression.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is refusing to do the right thing.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

In other words "sin unto death" is rebellion.

Doesn't verse 19 tell you this???

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Made sinners by example not by inherited genetics. Look at the second part of the verse...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now look at the previous verse...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Judgement came upon all men to condemnation by the offense of Adam. In other words Adam led the way and others followed.

The free gift likewise comes upon all men unto justification of life by the righteousness of one. Jesus led the way and others follow.

Choice in involved in both example. By believing in Original Sin you blame your own sin on your birth state. There is no way you can take responsibility for your sin in your own mind if you believe that because you don't think free moral agency had anything to do with it.

You didn't quote a single verse which teaches that sin is inherited. The reason you didn't is because there aren't any.

Please consider carefully and seriously think about it.

Are you responsible for your actions? Or do you blame something else?

 

[Skinski7]

Have you sinned since you received salvation?

Willful sin, no. God forbid I would do that.

Instead of addressing the specific issues I raise people like you often try to malign the character of others.

Let me ask you a question now.

What willful sin can you not cease from?

 

[sparkman]

Willful sin, no. God forbid I would do that.

Instead of addressing the specific issues I raise people like you often try to malign the character of others.

Let me ask you a question now.

What willful sin can you not cease from?

You want a rundown of my sins? Confession is to God, not man. Define willful.

 

[Shannon50]

Ok-- I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but eventhough I seem to cringe as I do read through these posts, I feel compelled to come into this chat forum and say my peace---

--- I just want to say that I believe that Jesus died Once and For All to save me from ALL my unrighteousness; and I will say that it doesn't seem FAIR-- just like it doesn't seem fair that someone in their old age could come to Jesus on their deathbed where other's follow him their whole lives and get rewarded--- But God doesn't follow my agreement of what is FAIR-- He is always perfectly just. And because it isn't at all FAIR, that's where Grace comes in. And covers ALL my sin.

I might also suggest before anyone jump on this to consider how things might change in this debate if we consider that God is Eternal and that a moment is the same as 1000 years to Him-- if you consider that then time as we see and experience it is NOT the same to Our Heavenly Father-- Jesus said in the NT to Fear Not, for He Has Overcome the World-- ALREADY-- not that he is in the process of Overcoming it, or that Soon He would die and Rise again and overcome it--

-- anyway, I believe that if He didn't save me once and for all, then if I ask for forgiveness on Sunday AM and have an impure thought on Sunday evening then His Grace would not continue to cover me. It is the human experience that makes us a judge in this, because we make it Our place to judge sins-- how many-- when-- how extreme they are, "whether the sin is willfull or not" when it is definitely not our place.