OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Jason0047]

Skinski7, Pelagianism teaches that repentance must occur for every sin or the person will be lost.

According to Hebrews 9:7, there are sins committed in ignorance, therefore you can never confess and be forgiven of those sins, since you don't know about them.

Hebrews 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

So, my question is, since you commit sins unknowingly, how can you escape condemnation since you can never confess and repent of them?


By the way, I think it's ironic that I stated multiple times that I believe in I John 1:8-9 concerning confession and asking forgiveness of sins, but you keep accusing me otherwise.

I am just not a whitewashed sepulchre who thinks that I am the agent behind my salvation. I John 1:9 clearly states that it is God who cleanses us.

1 John 1:9 is in context to sins unto death. For clearly Christ has forgiven of us of sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. Psalm 19:12 is what I believe the sins that do not lead unto death are. They are hidden or secret faults we are not aware of ourselves. Like maybe a believer could be better at his job as a testimony for Christ. Maybe a believer goes a little over the speed limit when he or she shouldn't, etc. Sins unto death would be lying, having lustful thoughts, hating, stealing, getting drunk, etc. They are the sins that Paul lists several times whereby one who partakes in such sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God. One must confess of these sins in order to be forgiven of them. That is what 1 John 1:9 simply says in a straight forward normal reading. 1 John 1:7 says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. Meaning.... we are to confess and forsake sin as a part of a believer's repentance. If one dies and does not get a chance to confess of a sin like say lying or hurting another human being physically, they will die in that sin (having rebelled against God). Because God determines when we die. He lets us know if we were truly living for Him or not.

 

[Grandpa]

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This is what many do not believe. Many cannot conceive a possibility of resisting temptation every single time which is what God requires us to do.

You don't believe that. You believe you must resist every temptation every single time.

But you are ignorant before God. You are as a beast before Him.

But God has the Power to Deliver His People out of temptations.

That is what People who believe God, believe. That He will Deliver them. Not just from Temptations, but from Doubt and every other enemy of Faith.

Romans 8:37-39
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is from Paul!!! He is believing, and teaching (if its possible), OSAS.


God requires, under the law.

God Provides, under the gospel of Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

1. Penal Substitution is only a 400 year old doctrine. It was invented by the reformers as an adaption of Anselm's 12th century satisfaction view. This is historical fact which one can prove very easily. Penal Substitution was not held by the early church nor does the Bible teach it.

2. What Jesus suffered on the cross can in no way be a substitute for the punishment due sin. Physical death on the cross is not the punishment due sin, the punishment due sin is the Lake of Fire and Jesus did not endure the Lake of Fire. Not only that but our crimes cannot be transferred to someone else whereby they are held guilty in our place, that would be unjust. Vice is not a transferable property, it has to be purged through repentance.

3. Penal Substitution upholds either OSAS or Universal Salvation as I outlined above. Which do you prefer?

4. Penal Substitution denies that God actually forgives sins. The sins are "paid for" NOT "forgiven." Let's us use common sense here please.

Isn't it an evil sin to lie?

Penal substitution has been around since the book of Isaiah. Have you read it???

Isaiah 53:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Do you understand this or do we need to go over it point by point?

Also, your huge posts full of error are quite laboring. I've been over most of this with you before...

He was wounded for our transgressions. That's penal substitution.
He was bruised for our iniquities. More penal substitution.
The chastisement of our peace was upon Him. More penal substitution if you didn't understand the first two.

But thanks for helping Jason see that your error actually helps teach OSAS.

Maybe you haven't read the OT???

 

[sparkman]

1 John 1:9 is in context to sins unto death. For clearly Christ has forgiven of us of sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. Psalm 19:12 is what I believe the sins that do not lead unto death are. They are hidden or secret faults we are not aware of ourselves. Like maybe a believer could be better at his job as a testimony for Christ. Maybe a believer goes a little over the speed limit when he or she shouldn't, etc. Sins unto death would be lying, having lustful thoughts, hating, stealing, getting drunk, etc. They are the sins that Paul lists several times whereby one who partakes in such sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God. One must confess of these sins in order to be forgiven of them. That is what 1 John 1:9 simply says in a straight forward normal reading. 1 John 1:7 says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. Meaning.... we are to confess and forsake sin as a part of a believer's repentance. If one dies and does not get a chance to confess of a sin like say lying or hurting another human being physically, they will die in that sin (having rebelled against God). Because God determines when we die. He lets us know if we were truly living for Him or not.

The verses clearly say "ALL unrighteousness." Do you know that cults practice the very technique you are using to justify your eisegesis? It's called "collapsing the context". Sin unto death isn't even mentioned until I John 5:16.

[SUP]I John 1: 8 [/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Grandpa]

4. Penal Substitution denies that God actually forgives sins. The sins are "paid for" NOT "forgiven." Let's us use common sense here please.

Sins are Atoned by the Unblemished Blood of the Lamb. Ask any legalist. They know.

Hebrews 9:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is starting to get fun.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, if anyone wants a summary of Mike Desario's teachings, from which Skinski7 derives his theology, it is available here. He lists 9 points of disagreement. He falls into the category of Pelagian-Finneyism as clearly as anyone I've seen.

His remarks are easily refuted. I might take the time to refute each one. The only problem is that reading such swill makes me feel dirty and gives me a headache.

Mike Desario clearly denies that Christ died as our substitutionary atonement. This is not a small matter. Substitutionary atonement is the crux of the Gospel message. It is such an important issue that I would not consider a person who denied it to be a Christian.

http://www.dividingword.net/Original%20Sin/Fallacies%20of%20the%20Present%20Day%20Church.pdf

 

[BradC]

The context of the word evil is evil here; Verse 2 says be not conformed to this world, but prove what is the perfect will of God. Anything outside of God's will and design is sin. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So you cannot change what God's Word is saying here. It means what it says.

I mean, honestly. Are trying to defend that one should not hate evil things? If that is the case, then how are on Earth are you on God's side?

Study the word 'poneros' and 'kakos' relating to types of evil. I changed nothing Jason, just expounding a little. Be a little more skillful in your understanding and how you handle the word. I suggest you dig a little deeper into this type of evil and see what our Lord says about and even Paul. It is the type of evil that the Greek word 'poneros' suggests. We are to abhor the kind of evil that conspires with others to discredit the body and doctrine of Christ. The context of Rom 12 hinges on (v.3) and Satan is behind the evil mentioned in (v.9) as pernicious. To abhor this kind of evil is to refrain from being involved in any activity associated with it. It is not an emotional abhorrence but an objective and intelligent restraint from giving place to this destructive evil. We are to cleave and fasten ourselves mentally and steadfastly to that which is good, 'agathos' or that which is useful in building up believers in the church as a body with Christ as the head. This is the practical application of abhorring evil and cleaving to that which is good. STUDY JASON.

 

[Skinski7]

He was wounded for our transgressions. That's penal substitution.

No it isn't. Jesus died on our behalf due to our sins. Jesus was our sin offering. There is not a single world in Isaiah about "Penal Substitution." You quote Isaiah and then imply it means something other than what it says.

He was bruised for our iniquities. More penal substitution.

Yes Jesus was bruised for our iniquities. He suffered on our behalf because of our sins. Again the text does not say a single word about "Penal Substitution."

The chastisement of our peace was upon Him. More penal substitution if you didn't understand the first two.

Yes the chastisement of our peace was upon him. Do you know who punished Jesus? Men did. Human beings sentenced Jesus to death by crucifixion and human beings carried out that sentence. Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus bore the full wrath of God instead of the sinner bearing the full wrath of God. The wrath of God due sin is not crucifixion on tree, it is the Lake of Fire.

You cannot find a single verse in the Bible that teaches Penal Substitution. All you can do is quote a passage that says nothing of the sort and then say "that means Penal Substitution." I can call a circle a square or a rabbit a dog too.

The Bible clearly teaches that reason Jesus died was this...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That is why Jesus died on our behalf. That is why Jesus bore our sins.

It has NOTHING to do with the provision of Penal Substitution, rather it has EVERYTHING to do with putting into force the New Covenant by which we approach God in repentance and faith and have our consciences purged of dead works.

Penal Substitution teaches something entirely different to what the Bible says.


Jesus came to this planet with words, which if adhered to, which bring a filthy hearted wicked person to a state of being a pure hearted righteous person. Thus through the words of Jesus Christ one could find reconciliation with God as that which caused the offense was done away with. We stand before God pure and blameless for real.

Jesus did not come to put into effect some provision which cloaks a filthy hearted wicked person where they are somehow reconciled to God, through a magic transfer, whilst they still remain filthy hearted and wicked. That teaching is nonsense.

Read the words of Jesus.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Not a pretend cleanliness written in some ledger but rather a real cleanliness of our entire being. Salvation is manifest not positional.

Skinski in Blue.

 

[Skinski7]

4. Penal Substitution denies that God actually forgives sins. The sins are "paid for" NOT "forgiven." Let's us use common sense here please

Sins are Atoned by the Unblemished Blood of the Lamb. Ask any legalist. They know.

Hebrews 9:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is starting to get fun.

Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God in place of the sinner. Basically Jesus stepped up to the plate and took the punishment due as a substitute. Thus with the punishment already being meted out it cannot be demanded due again, ie. it is paid in full.

That is a denial of sins being forgiven. If I am to pay your traffic fine on your behalf the fine is not forgiven, it is merely paid for by someone else.

The thing is you don't want to acknowledge that very basic and obvious logical tenet. You prefer to just ignore it and roll with your dogma. That is akin to throwing your brain out the window for you have to suppress your reasoning faculties.

Neither Hebrews 9:22-23 and Leviticus say a single word about Penal Substitition. They speak of an offering by which our sins are remitted. Jesus was a sin offering not a penal substitute. There is a big difference.

Skinski in Blue.

 

[sparkman]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I want everyone to notice this. One of the FUNDAMENTAL differences between our God and Allah is that He is both just and merciful. There is NO robust view of atonement in Islam like Christianity, and these heretics are teaching the same sort of crap. Some of them even deny that Christ was sent to die for our sins..they act like it was a chance affair that God didn't orchestrate.

The view that these HERETICS have is that God simply forgives sin without punishing it. God sent Jesus Christ to be punished for us on the Cross. He is merciful in that he provided for our forgiveness, but he is just in that he punished the sin.

The view that this HERETIC has is exactly the same as Islam. He is preaching a God that is not just and does not punish sin. God maintains his justness and also is merciful PERFECTLY through the substitutionary atonement.

Isaiah 53 blows this guy's heresy (skinski7) out of the water.

Do NOT turn our God into a pagan God like Allah!!!! He is both just and merciful. These false teachers deny the atonement of Jesus Christ and they strip the guts out of the true Gospel.

Isaiah53

53 Who has believed what he has heard from us?[SUP][a][/SUP]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He was despised and rejected[SUP][b][/SUP] by men;
a man of sorrows,[SUP][c][/SUP] and acquainted with[SUP][d][/SUP] grief;[SUP][e][/SUP]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[SUP][f][/SUP]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[SUP][g][/SUP]
when his soul makes[SUP][h][/SUP] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[SUP][i][/SUP] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[SUP][j][/SUP]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[SUP][k][/SUP]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blue remarks posted by skinsky7


Originally Posted by Grandpa

4. Penal Substitution denies that God actually forgives sins. The sins are "paid for" NOT "forgiven." Let's us use common sense here please


Sins are Atoned by the Unblemished Blood of the Lamb. Ask any legalist. They know.

Hebrews 9:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is starting to get fun.

Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God in place of the sinner. Basically Jesus stepped up to the plate and took the punishment due as a substitute. Thus with the punishment already being meted out it cannot be demanded due again, ie. it is paid in full.

That is a denial of sins being forgiven. If I am to pay your traffic fine on your behalf the fine is not forgiven, it is merely paid for by someone else.

The thing is you don't want to acknowledge that very basic and obvious logical tenet. You prefer to just ignore it and roll with your dogma. That is akin to throwing your brain out the window for you have to suppress your reasoning faculties.

Neither Hebrews 9:22-23 and Leviticus say a single word about Penal Substitition. They speak of an offering by which our sins are remitted. Jesus was a sin offering not a penal substitute. There is a big difference.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 John 1:9 says if we confess we are forgiven.
2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation.
David said return to me the joy of my salvation when he confessed his sins to God.
If you do not forgive, you are not forgiven.
No murderer has eternal life abiding in them; And it only takes one murder to be a murderer.

You did not answer my question, as these scriptures you gave do not say that the repentance can only be made after the offense/sin.

Then I know it only takes one murder to make one a murderer, but once again you have to take and understand what it means to be a murderer and one who commits a murder and then repents of it as the bible defines.
A murderer who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven by receiving eternal life through the Lord is one who does not repent a.k.a. confess of what they did.
If a person is asking for forgiveness they are repenting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skinski7]

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This is what many do not believe. Many cannot conceive a possibility of resisting temptation every single time which is what God requires us to do.

You don't believe that. You believe you must resist every temptation every single time. Yes we must resist temptation, by CHOOSING the way of escape.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God doesn't take the way of escape for us, we have to take it ourselves. We do that through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ where we are walking according to the Spirit. If we do that then we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How hard is that to understand?

Why is us having to be "doers" so offensive to you?

But you are ignorant before God. You are as a beast before Him. The beasts are those who walk after the lusts of the flesh as opposed to those who walk according to the spirit.

But God has the Power to Deliver His People out of temptations. Yes that is right but we have to faithfully abide in that power. That means we have to be yielded to God walking according to the Spirit. There is no rebellion in that, none at all.

We have to obey the Gospel of Christ whereby we fulfill the good pleasure of the goodness of God through THE WORK OF FAITH WITH POWER.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Faith is the active principle by which we walk in accordance with the grace of God. Faith is our part, faith is the DOING aspect of "saved by grace THROUGH faith." We "work together" with God whereby the power of God flows and manifests through us. This cannot happen if we are in rebellion to God walking our own way, this is why there is no rebellion in the genuine salvation experience. None.

That is what People who believe God, believe. That He will Deliver them. Not just from Temptations, but from Doubt and every other enemy of Faith. Yet God is not going to deliver anyone if they refuse to follow Him. God would not have delivered the Israelites from the bondage of Egypt if they refused to cross the Red Sea. It is no different with us, we have to leave Egypt (service of sin) through the new birth (Red Sea) and enter into the wilderness where our faith is tested, which if we don't fall we may enter into eternal life.

Yet you think that such notions are unbiblical? It blows my mind. Mandatory obedience to God is deemed by so many today as a satanic doctrine. Things are so backwards. I mean only the devil would tell people that they have to forsake their rebellion to God right?

Romans 8:37-39
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is from Paul!!! He is believing, and teaching (if its possible), OSAS.

Paul is not teaching unconditional eternal security in that passage. Read it for what it says. Paul doesn't say one cannot forsake God and be lost. He is speaking in the context of how secure we are if we are ABIDING FAITHFULLY. Paul specifically taught that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and he named specific actions which would disqualify people. Yet you think that Romans 8:37-39 someone neutralises what is written elsewhere in the Bible?

Why would Paul give the following warning if one could never fall away from the faith?

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

You can't answer that can you?

Disobedience to God will disqualify you from the kingdom. The Bible is so clear on this. No whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. That is a fact. Romans 8:37-39 does not list sin or rebellion does it? No it doesn't and that is because Paul is simply saying that nothing external can separate us from God so long as we abide in the faith.

Who receives eternal life?

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Who does not receive eternal life?

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You don't believe the Bible. You believe the simple twisting of small sections which tickle your ears for some reason. How do you deal with Romans 2:8? Or Ephesians 5 and 6? Or many other passages? Are you just going to ignore them and selectively quote little tidbits you can remove from their context?

God requires, under the law.

God Provides, under the gospel of Christ. God provides but we have to put it to use. Noah had to actually build the ark. He didn't wait on God to do it for him. God guided him, God instructed him, yet he had to actually DO it.

Likewise Jesus said that it is he that HEARS and DOES whose house will not fall. What do you do with that? Your focus is on HEAR and TRUST and that GOD DOES IT ALL. The Bible does not teach that. The Bible teaches that we have to be DOERS of the word and not hearers only.

Why reject DOING as a necessary aspect?

Skinski in Blue.

 

[sparkman]

Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ

by Matt Slick
There are differing views on the atonement of Christ that have been offered throughout the history of the Christian church. Not all of them are biblical. The correct position is the Substitutionary Atonement position since this means that Christ took our place, which is clearly taught in Isaiah 53:4-6; 2 Cor. 5:21; and 1 Pet. 2:24. Following is a list of various theories with their problems cited:

1. Ransom Theory
   1. This theory holds that the price that Jesus paid was made to Satan. The problem with this view is that there is no scriptural basis for it. This view was held by Origen (185-254). This theory mistakenly assumes that we are to be ransomed from Satan. But the truth is that we have broken God's law and it is to God that a payment must be made. Furthermore, there are no references in the Bible that we were ransomed from the devil. Instead, the sacrifice was made to God.
      1. Eph. 5:1-2, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;[SUP] 2[/SUP] and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."
2. The Moral Influence View
   1. This says that God did not need a payment for breaking his law, and that the death of Christ was an example of how much God loved us. Peter Abelard (1079-1142) held this position. This view fails to take into account the many verses that speak of Jesus dying for our sins.
      1. Gal. 1:4, "who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father."
      2. 1 Cor. 15:3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
      3. 1 Pet. 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."
3. The Governmental Theory
   1. This says that God did not have to require a payment for sinners, and that God could have forgiven people simply by choosing to do so without any payment of penalty. If this is so, then why did Christ need to die at all? This means that Christ made no payment and did not die for anyone's sins.
4. The Example Theory
   1. This also denies that God requires a payment for breaking his law and Christ's death on the cross was an example of how we should trust God completely even to the point of death. This theory also fails to deal with the many Scriptures that speak of Christ dying for sin.

Vicarious Atonement

In opposition to the above views, CARM's position is the one known as "vicarious atonement." The word "vicarious" means substitute. Therefore, Christ was a substitute for others in that he took their place and suffered their punishment. It was also a legal act whereby Christ fulfilled the law and lawfully paid the penalty of sin.
Is it biblical to say that Christ took our place and suffered our punishment? Yes it is. First of all, we see vicarious sacrifice in the Old Testament.

Genesis 22:13, "Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son."
​

Notice that the ram was offered in place of Isaac. This was a substitutionary sacrifice which is exactly what "vicarious" means. Further, we see a prophecy of the atoning work of Christ in Isaiah. Notice the substitutionary language:

Isaiah 53:4-5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [SUP]5[/SUP] But He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him and by His scourging we are healed."
​

We see in the above verses in Isaiah that Jesus was prophesied to bear our sorrows, to be smitten of God (which is what is due us, the sinners), and that our chastening fell upon him. Can it be any clearer? What was due to us because of our sinfulness is what fell upon Christ. He was our substitution.

• 2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
• Rom. 4:25, "He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification."

Clearly, Jesus was a substitution in that he was made sin on our behalf. Just as the RAM was offered as a substitute for Isaac, Christ was offered in substitution for us. This is why the Bible says he became sin on our behalf, that he was delivered because of our transgressions, that he bore our griefs, carried our sorrows, was pierced for our transgressions, and was crushed for our iniquities.
Jesus did what we could not. He took our place and bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and made propitiation for our sins.

• Rom. 3:25, "whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed."
• 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
• 1 John 4:10, "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

The word propitiation "properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift."1Propitiation properly deals with the wrath of God. The wrath of God is due to the legal requirements of punishing the sinner. Remember, the sinner is someone who has broken the law of God, hence, the legality of punishment; and since Jesus is our propitiation and turns away the lawful wrath of God, we have further evidence that Christ's sacrifice was to avert God's righteous wrath against us, the sinners. Since the law of God must be met and cannot be ignored, it is proper that the law be fulfilled. Jesus is the one who fulfilled the law and never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22). But, he bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) thereby suffering the penalty of sin, which is death.
Christ's death was a legal payment

In addition to Christ's atonement being vicarious, it was also legal. Legality deals with the law. Sin is breaking the law of God. When a law is broken, a punishment is incurred. There is no punishment without law, and there is no law without punishment. When a person is sentenced to time in prison, this is done based upon the requirements of the law. The required sentence upon one who breaks the law of God is death.

2 Cor. 1:9, "indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead."
​

Paul tells us that we had a "sentence of death." This sentence is due to our breaking the law of God. Therefore, we were legally guilty before God because we broke his law. Furthermore, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "It is finished!" (John 19:30). In Greek it is, "tetelistai," and it was a legal term.

"The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means 'It is finished.' Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning "paid in full." This word on Jesus’ lips was significant. When He said, "It is finished" (not "I am finished"), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the penalty of God’s justice which sin deserved."2
​

Jesus knew the culture, and he specifically used that word "tetelestai," which was used in legal statements in ancient Israel when a legal debt had been fully paid. Why was this necessary legally? Because sin only has power because of the law (legality) of God. The law has a punishment, and the punishment is death.

• 1 Cor. 15:56, "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."
• Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The whole atoning work of Christ was a legal action where Jesus substituted himself for sinners and paid the legal requirement of the punishment of sin--death. This is what the scriptures teach, and this is the position of CARM.


Source: https://carm.org/substitutionary-atonement-jesus-christ

 

[SarahM777]

Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ

by Matt Slick
There are differing views on the atonement of Christ that have been offered throughout the history of the Christian church. Not all of them are biblical. The correct position is the Substitutionary Atonement position since this means that Christ took our place, which is clearly taught in Isaiah 53:4-6; 2 Cor. 5:21; and 1 Pet. 2:24. Following is a list of various theories with their problems cited:

1. Ransom Theory
   1. This theory holds that the price that Jesus paid was made to Satan. The problem with this view is that there is no scriptural basis for it. This view was held by Origen (185-254). This theory mistakenly assumes that we are to be ransomed from Satan. But the truth is that we have broken God's law and it is to God that a payment must be made. Furthermore, there are no references in the Bible that we were ransomed from the devil. Instead, the sacrifice was made to God.
      1. Eph. 5:1-2, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;[SUP] 2[/SUP] and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."
2. The Moral Influence View
   1. This says that God did not need a payment for breaking his law, and that the death of Christ was an example of how much God loved us. Peter Abelard (1079-1142) held this position. This view fails to take into account the many verses that speak of Jesus dying for our sins.
      1. Gal. 1:4, "who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father."
      2. 1 Cor. 15:3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
      3. 1 Pet. 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."
3. The Governmental Theory
   1. This says that God did not have to require a payment for sinners, and that God could have forgiven people simply by choosing to do so without any payment of penalty. If this is so, then why did Christ need to die at all? This means that Christ made no payment and did not die for anyone's sins.
4. The Example Theory
   1. This also denies that God requires a payment for breaking his law and Christ's death on the cross was an example of how we should trust God completely even to the point of death. This theory also fails to deal with the many Scriptures that speak of Christ dying for sin.

Vicarious Atonement

In opposition to the above views, CARM's position is the one known as "vicarious atonement." The word "vicarious" means substitute. Therefore, Christ was a substitute for others in that he took their place and suffered their punishment. It was also a legal act whereby Christ fulfilled the law and lawfully paid the penalty of sin.
Is it biblical to say that Christ took our place and suffered our punishment? Yes it is. First of all, we see vicarious sacrifice in the Old Testament.

Genesis 22:13, "Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son."
​

Notice that the ram was offered in place of Isaac. This was a substitutionary sacrifice which is exactly what "vicarious" means. Further, we see a prophecy of the atoning work of Christ in Isaiah. Notice the substitutionary language:

Isaiah 53:4-5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [SUP]5[/SUP] But He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him and by His scourging we are healed."
​

We see in the above verses in Isaiah that Jesus was prophesied to bear our sorrows, to be smitten of God (which is what is due us, the sinners), and that our chastening fell upon him. Can it be any clearer? What was due to us because of our sinfulness is what fell upon Christ. He was our substitution.

• 2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
• Rom. 4:25, "He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification."

Clearly, Jesus was a substitution in that he was made sin on our behalf. Just as the RAM was offered as a substitute for Isaac, Christ was offered in substitution for us. This is why the Bible says he became sin on our behalf, that he was delivered because of our transgressions, that he bore our griefs, carried our sorrows, was pierced for our transgressions, and was crushed for our iniquities.
Jesus did what we could not. He took our place and bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and made propitiation for our sins.

• Rom. 3:25, "whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed."
• 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
• 1 John 4:10, "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

The word propitiation "properly signifies the removal of wrath by the offering of a gift."1Propitiation properly deals with the wrath of God. The wrath of God is due to the legal requirements of punishing the sinner. Remember, the sinner is someone who has broken the law of God, hence, the legality of punishment; and since Jesus is our propitiation and turns away the lawful wrath of God, we have further evidence that Christ's sacrifice was to avert God's righteous wrath against us, the sinners. Since the law of God must be met and cannot be ignored, it is proper that the law be fulfilled. Jesus is the one who fulfilled the law and never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22). But, he bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21) thereby suffering the penalty of sin, which is death.
Christ's death was a legal payment

In addition to Christ's atonement being vicarious, it was also legal. Legality deals with the law. Sin is breaking the law of God. When a law is broken, a punishment is incurred. There is no punishment without law, and there is no law without punishment. When a person is sentenced to time in prison, this is done based upon the requirements of the law. The required sentence upon one who breaks the law of God is death.

2 Cor. 1:9, "indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead."
​

Paul tells us that we had a "sentence of death." This sentence is due to our breaking the law of God. Therefore, we were legally guilty before God because we broke his law. Furthermore, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "It is finished!" (John 19:30). In Greek it is, "tetelistai," and it was a legal term.

"The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means 'It is finished.' Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning "paid in full." This word on Jesus’ lips was significant. When He said, "It is finished" (not "I am finished"), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the penalty of God’s justice which sin deserved."2
​

Jesus knew the culture, and he specifically used that word "tetelestai," which was used in legal statements in ancient Israel when a legal debt had been fully paid. Why was this necessary legally? Because sin only has power because of the law (legality) of God. The law has a punishment, and the punishment is death.

• 1 Cor. 15:56, "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."
• Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The whole atoning work of Christ was a legal action where Jesus substituted himself for sinners and paid the legal requirement of the punishment of sin--death. This is what the scriptures teach, and this is the position of CARM.


Source: https://carm.org/substitutionary-atonement-jesus-christ

OK But how do you reconcile this

Mark 10

[SUP]41 [/SUP]When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. [SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Those are Jesus own words and He clearly says He is giving His life as a ransom. So to who and what is Jesus giving His life as a ransom?

 

[Skinski7]

Here's a question I have for you, though. Always questions for me when you will not answer my questions to you.

You apparently have a problem with limited atonement. However, Pelagians have a form of limited atonement as well. Due to your denial that babies have original sin, if a child dies in infancy, they do not need the blood of Jesus Christ for their sins, as they don't have any sin. So, Pelagians have a form of limited atonement themselves. Only sinners need the blood of Jesus Christ for their sins. If sin is not imputed to a baby, then there is no need for the blood of Christ to cover their sin.

The blood of Jesus does not cover sin. The blood of Jesus purges sin.

Babies have no sin to be purged, they are innocent. Thus a baby does not need the blood of Jesus to remit sins which they do not have. They still need Jesus for Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus is the Logos. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Jesus is the means by which we can have communion with God.

Babies are not born righteous, but neither are they born unrighteous. Babies are born ignorant subject to temptation. Sin is only possible when the knowledge of right and wrong arises, ie. a developed intellect able to comprehend the light of conscience.

Why did Jesus die?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What sins has a new born baby committed?

What acts of rebellion to God has a new born baby committed?

Paul wrote...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul does not teach that he was born dead, he teaches that he was alive once without the law, then the law came (knowledge of the right way), sin came to life and he died. Thus the instruction of the "right way" which was for our good is found to be to our destruction.

James describes sin perfectly here...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Temptation -----------------> Sin -----------------> Death

Original Sin teaches...

Sin/Death/Birth -------------------> Manifest Sin.

Original Sin is not Biblical. It shifts the blame for sin from the choice we made in yielding to temptation to a blaming a birth defect.

Now I think one could argue that an individual who never sinned would still need to enter into the New Covenant and of course that is via the blood. There would just be no purging of that which is not there. Yet this is really a null point because I don't think any human being would never sin because I don't really see the incentive not to due to being ignorant as to what true love is and being ignorant of the consequences of sin. Thus the first time a child will rebel and actually sin is not viewed as a big deal from their perspective. That is why I think every person sins. Jesus on the other hand had an innate knowledge of God from the very beginning and walked in the Spirit His whole life. Jesus was begotten of God, something which we have to seek out unlike Jesus.

Can you tell me why you have issues with limited atonement since you have a form of it yourself? I don't have any form of limited atonement. You just misconstrue the purpose of the blood in perceiving it as a cloak for sin when it isn't. The blood is for the purging of sin from a guilty conscience (which is why there is a need for the Ministry of Reconciliation), a guilty conscience which cannot possibly abide with God who is light.

Skinski in blue.

 

[Skinski7]

OK But how do you reconcile this

Mark 10

[SUP]41 [/SUP]When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. [SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Those are Jesus own words and He clearly says He is giving His life as a ransom. So to who and what is Jesus giving His life as a ransom?

Matt Slick is a 5 point Calvinist I believe. A very deceived individual who deceives many others. Sparkman obviously runs to him as an authority instead of using his own words to present a defence of what he believes. This is why so many are deceived, people read what others think and then buy into what sounds good instead of diligently digging for themselves.

Here is something I wrote on Ransom...

[h=3]The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"[/h]
Jesus came to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being redeemed means being ransomed.

G3084 - Redeem -lutroō
From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.

The Bible teaches that a Christian is both redeemed and forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are two different aspects of salvation.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Jesus bought us with His blood. His blood was the price He paid to ransom us from all iniquity.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

A sinner is a slave to sin because they yield to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Sinners have sold themselves into this state of bondage and their redemption is without money.

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

The price paid was the blood of Jesus Christ.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

H1350 - Redeemed - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

It is Jesus Christ that makes us free indeed.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Set free by the blood and by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is why someone who has been TRULY redeemed does not sin. The bondage has been broken. They no longer yield to the passions and desires of their flesh and are thus no longer drawn into sin. They are the Lord's freemen...

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Previously being a servant of sin, now (having obeyed from the heart) a servant of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How does all this actually work?

It works through repentance and faith. One must first be broken on the rock of Christ (Mat 21:44) in order that the old master (Satan) be thrown off through the death of the old man (Rom 6:6) that we may go across to our new master whom is Jesus Christ. Thus we die (our old rebellious self serving man) with Christ that we may live unto God (Rom 14:8).

God sent Jesus to save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. There is no salvation in sin, there is salvation from sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Redemption from all iniquity and being made pure is the purpose. This is to happen NOW, in this life.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It is the pure in heart that will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

It is through the purging of rebellion in repentance, by which we have put to death our former life of rebellion having crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), that we can approach God boldly in a new and living way with a true heart in full assurance of faith and have our hearts sprinkled by the blood of Christ.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood of Jesus Christ purges our consciences of dead works that we may serve God acceptably. Our conscience will no longer bear witness against us for we have been washed and made clean.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
The Pearl of Great Price: Death of Christ (Atonement)

 

[sparkman]

OK But how do you reconcile this

Mark 10

[SUP]41 [/SUP]When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. [SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Those are Jesus own words and He clearly says He is giving His life as a ransom. So to who and what is Jesus giving His life as a ransom?

You'd need to ignore the entire sacrificial system, Isaiah 53 and much of the rest of the Bible to discount substitutionary atonement. A minor facet of the atonement may be related to the ransom theory but that definitely does not negate the massive primary facet related to substitutionary atonement. The fallacy involved in this is called fallacy of the single cause.

 

[Skinski7]

You see when we sold ourselves into the bondage of sin we became slaves. A slave has a need to be set free from their bondage. Hence sinners need to be redeemed.

Redemption is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is something we enter into through the cross...

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

See how it connects?

This happens...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Which puts us in this state...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Ministry of Reconciliation is designed to redeem people from being in bondage to sin whereby they are put into a state of walking with God by the Spirit. It is through this transformation that God can forgive sins without grace being a license to sin. We whom are forgiven are not going to repeat our offenses because our hearts have been made pure. That is why the Bible speaks of...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Being made the righteousness of God in Him is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. Jesus alluded to it in these words...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It is all so very simple. Yet the religion masquerading as Christianity today doesn't teach anything remotely close to any of this. It is one massive deception which very few can see through.

The Bible warns...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It is already in full effect today. People are induced into worshipping the beast (carnal man) via the false prophet (all the fake Christian ministers) who preach a doctrine which denies that the flesh has to be crucified in repentance.

Everything has been redefined from salvation, faith, grace, repentance, why Jesus died, sin, everything. It a massive delusion so strong that it is really beyond belief. When the Bible warns that "if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived" it is not joking. Satan is far more devious than many think. All this is heart breaking.

 

[SarahM777]

Matt Slick is a 5 point Calvinist I believe. A very deceived individual who deceives many others. Sparkman obviously runs to him as an authority instead of using his own words to present a defence of what he believes. This is why so many are deceived, people read what others think and then buy into what sounds good instead of diligently digging for themselves.

Here is something I wrote on Ransom...

The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"


Jesus came to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being redeemed means being ransomed.

G3084 - Redeem -lutroō
From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.

The Bible teaches that a Christian is both redeemed and forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are two different aspects of salvation.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Jesus bought us with His blood. His blood was the price He paid to ransom us from all iniquity.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

A sinner is a slave to sin because they yield to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Sinners have sold themselves into this state of bondage and their redemption is without money.

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

The price paid was the blood of Jesus Christ.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

H1350 - Redeemed - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

It is Jesus Christ that makes us free indeed.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Set free by the blood and by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is why someone who has been TRULY redeemed does not sin. The bondage has been broken. They no longer yield to the passions and desires of their flesh and are thus no longer drawn into sin. They are the Lord's freemen...

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Previously being a servant of sin, now (having obeyed from the heart) a servant of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How does all this actually work?

It works through repentance and faith. One must first be broken on the rock of Christ (Mat 21:44) in order that the old master (Satan) be thrown off through the death of the old man (Rom 6:6) that we may go across to our new master whom is Jesus Christ. Thus we die (our old rebellious self serving man) with Christ that we may live unto God (Rom 14:8).

God sent Jesus to save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. There is no salvation in sin, there is salvation from sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Redemption from all iniquity and being made pure is the purpose. This is to happen NOW, in this life.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It is the pure in heart that will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

It is through the purging of rebellion in repentance, by which we have put to death our former life of rebellion having crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), that we can approach God boldly in a new and living way with a true heart in full assurance of faith and have our hearts sprinkled by the blood of Christ.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood of Jesus Christ purges our consciences of dead works that we may serve God acceptably. Our conscience will no longer bear witness against us for we have been washed and made clean.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
The Pearl of Great Price: Death of Christ (Atonement)

I think I get what your saying because that also goes with this

Luke 4

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.

He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
​

[SUP]19 [/SUP] to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[SUP][f]
[/SUP]​

[SUP]

Which of course is taken from Isiah 61
​

[/SUP]

61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]2 [/SUP]to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the Lord
for the display of his splendor.
​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Strangers will shepherd your flocks;
foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will be called priests of the Lord,
you will be named ministers of our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and in their riches you will boast.​

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace
you will rejoice in your inheritance.
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.​

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
All who see them will acknowledge
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.”
​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]I delight greatly in the Lord;
my soul rejoices in my God.
For he has clothed me with garments of salvation
and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness,
as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest,
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For as the soil makes the sprout come up
and a garden causes seeds to grow,
so the Sovereign Lord will make righteousness
and praise spring up before all nations.
​

[SUP]


[/SUP]
The question then needs to be asked is that the complete picture or is there more then Jesus was ONLY a ransom?

 

[SarahM777]

You'd need to ignore the entire sacrificial system, Isaiah 53 and much of the rest of the Bible to discount substitutionary atonement. A minor facet of the atonement may be related to the ransom theory but that definitely does not negate the massive primary facet related to substitutionary atonement. The fallacy involved in this is called fallacy of the single cause.

But my question is how does what Jesus say fit in? It is part of it and we can't just ignore it. And your answer did not answer the question that I asked.