When does the rapture occur?

[prove-all]

Even they have forgotten who they are just as hosea prophesied.

“Therefore the [Eternal] was very angry with Israel,
and removed them out of his sight:
there was none left but the tribe of Judah only” (2 Kings 17:18).


“And I will wait upon the Lord,
that hideth his face from the house of Jacob(sinful Isreal) Isaiah 8:17:

God hidding his face from them, striped of name, heritage, idenity.

Isreal became slaves, then lost to the world, dispersed with there captures.
by deforce, becoming the lost 10 tribes,

 

[prove-all]

Where are you getting this from?

from the bible I bet

 

[prove-all]

Judah,levi,etc.=Jews

130 year after Isreal lost and long gone, judah goes captive.

I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel,
and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen,
and the house of which I said, My name shall be there” (2 Kings 23:27).


-none of the verses below say anything about house of Isreal.

Judah and Benjamin, and the Levites are labeled jews now

Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin,
and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised,
to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.

Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity
builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel;Ezra 4:1 (KJV)

Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem Ezra 10:9 (KJV)


the jews have most there land, but lost northern kingdom not have land in middle east.

 

[SilverFanng]

“Therefore the [Eternal] was very angry with Israel,
and removed them out of his sight:
there was none left but the tribe of Judah only” (2 Kings 17:18).


“And I will wait upon the Lord,
that hideth his face from the house of Jacob(sinful Isreal) Isaiah 8:17:

God hidding his face from them, striped of name, heritage, idenity.

Isreal became slaves, then lost to the world, dispersed with there captures.
by deforce, becoming the lost 10 tribes,

Yes but you forgot to include any of his ear in your citations. The entire book is only about that. At the end it says that God will then bring them back into his sight at the end.

Also, Popeye, I have just finished a study analyzing how the bride of Christ is Israel while the church is the body of Christ. It actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[SilverFanng]

130 year after Isreal lost and long gone, judah goes captive.

I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel,
and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen,
and the house of which I said, My name shall be there” (2 Kings 23:27).


-none of the verses below say anything about house of Isreal.

Judah and Benjamin, and the Levites are labeled jews now

Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin,
and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised,
to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.

Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity
builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel;Ezra 4:1 (KJV)

Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem Ezra 10:9 (KJV)


the jews have most there land, but lost northern kingdom not have land in middle east.

Also, Israel never completely finished acquiring the land God told them to. They were supposed to take over 10 times what they had in the past.

 

[SilverFanng]

Also one of the reasons I bring up the lost tribes is because finding them is paramount to understanding a lot of end times prophecy. Without knowing where they are today we only have half a picture, maybe less.

 

[popeye]

Also one of the reasons I bring up the lost tribes is because finding them is paramount to understanding a lot of end times prophecy. Without knowing where they are today we only have half a picture, maybe less.

Interestig vid.
[video=youtube;3XFdZnZdCxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFdZnZdCxg[/video]

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by SilverFanng

There is no rapture as people have described it. The "rapture" in actuality, after looking at the context clues, is the first resurrection, that occurs AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE the millenial rule of Christ.

It is written that it shall take place after the LAST TRUMPET in revelation it says that Christ returns after the seventh, the last, trumpet. This must be so because only those who were sealed after the sixth seal were resurrected at this time. Those who are sealed and still alive are given new bodies, their old bodies are destroyed, hence they too are resurrected.


It also has to be this way because the Antichrist will arise from within the church. Don't believe me? He has to enter the temple of God and set up the abomination which causes desolation and end all sacrifices. It is written that those who follow Christ ARE the temple of God. The end of sacrifices means no more people will be redeemed when he shows up declaring to be Christ. He will lead everyone away from God and only true Christians who were redeemed before he made his declaration will be redeemed, the only redeemed ones on earth. The 144,000 and the great multitude.

I disagree.

I believe that the rapture and the second comimg are separate events. The Church may indeed endure Satan's opposition; and the wrath of man; but NOT the wrath of God


1 Th 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [come before] them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

This does not IMO speak of the Lord coming to earth; but rather of the Church being caught up [raptured] to meet Him in the air.


Mt 24:30-31

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


IMO this suggests that we are already in heaven when the Lord returns.


Rv 6:12-7:9

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

The sudden appearance in heaven of a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues before the seventh seal is opened; suggests that the rapture occurs before the seventh seal is opened.

Good respose marc

 

[popeye]

This is the problem, classic of you pre-tribbers. You invoke scores of theologians, with doctorates in theology, who live and breath scripture their entire lives, hence the mistake you make. Everybody knows the only truth to be found is from trolls on the web. Just think about it a minute. On the one hand, you have seminarians, on the other hand the likes of this thread, well qualified posters who can stand on this, "I don't know anything about the Bible, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

Thank you sir. True dat.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by SilverFanng

In response to those who claim to be preparing, I respect the courage and strength it must take to do so. Personally I believe that I won't be able to to prepare enough food in time. God has called me to help guide people through the chaos of the sixth seal opening: the eruption of yellowstone. The country will be made uninhabitable. We will have to leave or live in a wasteland with no sun or clean water. Just saying, be ready to leave.

Well, ok, that's preparing. As much as stockpiling or building an ark. The point is that you recognize God's warnings, and His call to action, and are taking action as He is leading you. And when Yellowstone explodes you'll be ready, as opposed to the many who thought they weren't going to be around to see it and have no plan B. We'll see how many go Matthew 24:10 on us then. I know it won't be you, because you recognize and prepared for it.

Funny thing about that stored food and supplies... God's led me to believe I may walk away from it... it could be all for someone else He'll bring along at a later date.

It's curious you single out Yellowstone, honestly I expect not just it to blow but for these things to blow all around the globe. I presume Yellowstone is within your sphere of influence, and you know how God likes to use us where we are... sometimes. God's moving to use us in southwest Minnesota... how's that plume predicted to affect us?

The AC,according to God's word kills all believers.
Rev 13;4 "............Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him ..........

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him............

............and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark ........

Be sure your "preparations" include a magic marker to put a dotted line in your necks.

Yeah,nothing like ignoring the truth. "watching....waiting.....oil in lamp"
Lets just dump this and go to walmart for food.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by popeye

More like you NEED something to be missing.

The rapture is the groom gathering the bride.

Abraham gathers Lot.

Comical how you postribbs stumble and fall all over a no brainer.

How can you call yourself a christian and laugh at the shortcomings of others? You white washed tomb! I may not be smart but I can discern an evil heart when I see one. Check yourself with God and empty your heart of the hate you harbor for that is enticing to Satan.

Cue the bankrupt name calling.

The ONLY postrib i have ever witnessed giving an apology FOR GOING PERSONAL,and resorting to your tactics is PW.
I respect him for that.

 

[prove-all]

I have just finished a study analyzing how
the bride of Christ is Israel while the church is the body of Christ.

In Acts 7:38 we learn that the congregation of Israel was called the church
in the wilderness, in the days of Moses.

The word translated congregation in the Old Testament is ekklesia in the Septuagint
the same identical Greek word that is always translated church in the New Testament.

Israel was both church and state. for years ruled by a system of judges,
over fifties, hundreds, thousands,later having a king.

He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
52But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.
53And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.
54And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain,
which his right hand had purchased.

37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in
the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively [oracles] to give unto us:

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers
were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness
into his marvellous light:

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in
the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


Deuteronomy 14:2 (KJV)
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be
a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.


1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; [a woman] clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.


Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself
a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Pentecost pictures the first part of the spiritual harvest— the calling out of the Church
the called-out ones—which, for the New Testament dispensation, began on Pentecost, June 17, a.d. 31.

On that day the Holy Spirit came to dwell within flesh, as prophesied by Joel.
from then to Christs return we are called the firstfruits of mankind after Christ

Pentecost or “feast of firstfruits.” Also called the “feast of weeks.” in o.t.
Isreal had two harvests, small first harvest in spring, then much larger fall harvest.


1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness
into his marvellous light:....same as Deuteronomy 14:2 (KJV)

 

[popeye]

Messiah, the Christ is the Vine, and we are the branches. Some branches are natural branches (Jews who genuinely believe in the Messiah as LORD); and there are many branches that are grafted in (Gentiles who believe in the Messiah as Lord).

I would say so

 

[popeye]

Actually, I believe the second coming of Christ will be in correlation with the feasts. 3 of them anyway. Unleavened, weeks and tabernacles. Those 3 may very will work together in coordination with the signs we have been given. Between the fall harvest is trumpets and atonement. Harvest and trumpets (the months of Av, Ekul and Tishri) seem to compare well with 1 Corinthians 1 Thessalonians, and Matthew 24.

Agreed.
The feasts are directly connected

 

[popeye]

Sarah,

I liked your post because it was well reasoned and well presented; but, I am not in full agreement for these reasons:

In first century Jewish thought there is a concept of a three tiered heaven alluded to in 2 Co 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV

Within this concept, the atmosphere is regarded as the first heaven.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

IMO, this scenario allows Jesus to rapture the Church without leaving heaven or appearing to anyone but the saints.

I believe the Church will go through part of the tribulation. The Church will experience the wrath of man and of Satan; but, NOT the wrath of God.

I believe that the first five seals have already been opened; and that the Rapture will occur after the sixth seal is opened ; but before the seventh.

If my analysis is correct everything in your presentation is correct ; but the conclusion must be adjusted to allow for a mid-trib rapture.

If you find my analysis faulty, I'd love to discuss it.

Good post friend

 

[popeye]

......um.....you just proved all of my points for me.

That first passage says specifically that they "go out to meet him."

The second one says, as I stated in a previous post, that all the faithful will die.

The third passage says that they are brought out of the great tribulation meaning they were previously in it.

So basically what you have just told me is that the bible states that there will be Christians in the midst of the great tribulation and after satan and his servants wage war against all true Christians he will prevail and the Christians will be killed and THAT is when they go out to meet Christ and accompany him on the rest of his return journey to earth.

IOW,nobody alive gets raptured(caught up).

Lets apply this "There were 10 dead virgins.5 were wise,5 were foolish"

What translation is that?????

 

[Pumicestone]

..... Your position is error by omission

I think what Popeye means is
"In my opinion, your postition is error by omission".
Unless that spinach diet also imparts infallibility ?

 

[PlainWord]

Romans 12:1:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We are to sacrifice our bodies, even to death, to be witnesses to God. We are to suffer TRIBULATION for our faith. NEVER are we told we are to escape TRIBULATION. The disciples were the examples for us. Thus, the GREAT TRIBULATION will be a period of total persecution and slaughter of CHRISTIANS everywhere.

Jesus instructs us to not fear what the wicked can do to us physically...

Luke 12:4

“And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

Jesus was preparing all Christians throughout the Church age to make the ultimate sacrifice for Him, just as He did for us. I can find no passage where we are explicitly told that the oft taught doctrine of tribulation for faith is reversed for the believers at the End of the Church Age. We are promised ETERNAL LIFE, we are NOT promised escape from physical death. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine distorts and completely does a 180 on the true teachings of Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

Gary,

We are covering Revelation at my Church and my pastor actually preached on the 2 witnesses this past Sunday. I was shocked that he agreed with me (mostly anyway). I shot him an email after the service telling him that he was the first pastor who I ever heard preach that the two witnesses were not literal men but represent the church. In reply, he sent me a link to a sermon by Dr. GK Beale who goes into great detail concerning why it is the church who are the 2 witnesses and how the whole of Chapter 11 is tied together symbolically. Dr. Beale's sermon on the witnesses can be found here. My pastor totally plagiarized it, LOL.

http://media.thirdmill.org/mp3-16/gk_beale.Rev.04.mp3

I don't normally promote the works of men but in this case, Dr. Beale's work is so compelling that I feel compelled to share it. Please give a listen, it's 55 minutes but worth every minute for genuine truth seekers. There is a slight difference to Dr. Beale's conclusion vs. mine. I felt that the Church and Israel are the two witnesses. He claims it is just the 2 of 7 faithful churches that are the true witnesses. I am certainly okay with that point of view. He also dispels the idea that a 3rd temple has to be built and he explains Chapter 11 verse 1-2 and how they tie to the 2 witnesses.

Let me know what you think. If you listen to this I bet it will forever change your prospective on the 2 witnesses. Normally I would email this to you privately but I want others to be able to have the link and listen too. There is another very cool point to be made which Dr. Beale in a round about way clued me in to which I will explain shortly. He didn't come out and say it but it opened my eyes to another big point about God's Plan and how we Christians fit into it in terms of the end times.

 

[Elin]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasting destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclature is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt & lib) occurring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib),"
means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain didactics of the NT Word of God specifically locate the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any prophetic riddle, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

Sarah,

I liked your post because it was well reasoned and well presented; but, I am not in full agreement for these reasons:

In first century Jewish thought there is a concept of a three tiered heaven

Yes, but only the third heaven is where God dwells on the throne.

alluded to in 2 Co 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV

Paul is saying he was caught up to the dwelling place of God's throne.

Within this concept, the atmosphere is regarded as the first heaven.

Yes, it is our air, atmosphere, which terminates a few miles above the earth.

Above that is outer space, and above that is the third heaven, the dwelling place of God's throne.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

That is the atmosphere immediately above the earth, in which he would be visible from the earth,
as the clouds are visible from the earth. . .particularly with cameras trained on it all, transmitting it
over all the earth, as was 9/11, live as it happened.

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV

In the parousia (coming), which was a going out of the citizens to meet the incoming dignitary
and accompany him back to his destination, once having been caught up to meet him in the clouds
in the air we shall ever be with with him, as we accompany him to his destination earth, and
the final judgment, never to part from him again.

IMO, this scenario allows Jesus to rapture the Church without leaving heaven or appearing to anyone but the saints.

But what about the certain didactics of
Ac 3:21 and Heb 9:27-28 which show there will be only one more appearing of Jesus, and
1Pe 1:5, 13 ("reveal") and Heb 9:28 ("appear") which locate both that "appearing" and "revealing"
at the final judgment at the end of time?

I believe the Church will go through part of the tribulation. The Church will experience the wrath of man and of Satan; but, NOT the wrath of God.

I believe that the first five seals have already been opened; and that the Rapture will occur after the sixth seal is opened ; but before the seventh.

If my analysis is correct everything in your presentation is correct ; but the conclusion must be adjusted to allow for a mid-trib rapture.

If you find my analysis faulty, I'd love to discuss it.

Never "faulty". . .but is that in agreement with the certain NT didactics of Ac 3:21; Heb 9:27-28;
1Pe 1:5, 13?

And keeping in mind that I am able to discuss only the certain didactics, because interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles is not certain, and are interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.