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E
People need to do a study on the attributes of God instead of garnering emotional tidbits that appeal to them
God's MAIN attribute is His HOLINESS....not His love
Every attribute is HOLY
God is HOLY in His Love
He is HOLY in His Justice
GOD IS HOLY...He is not a mish mash of goochy feelings
God IS Spirit...He is not 'a' spirit He IS Spirit...there are no others like HIM
Do you understand what the fear of God is? It is not an emotion...It is the realization of God
Worship the Lord in the beauty of His Holiness
No...I would not eat you for breakfast...apart from the fact I seldom eat breakfast, God does not need you to die for sinners Blain...He already did
What He needs, are people who study the Word instead of cherry picking the parts that appeal to them and majoring on minors and twisting the truth until the rest of the world call us fools
Being a Christian does not mean forgiving gross error
A fit old man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJmiXPlMvs
Seriously though, it take so much time for a man to be trained in the ways of holiness, and so few get there, that anyone who does will want to treat the temple of the Holy Spirit with great care so that he can be active for the Lord as long as possible. When I see a man preaching with a pot belly then I doubt he is perfect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJmiXPlMvs
Seriously though, it take so much time for a man to be trained in the ways of holiness, and so few get there, that anyone who does will want to treat the temple of the Holy Spirit with great care so that he can be active for the Lord as long as possible. When I see a man preaching with a pot belly then I doubt he is perfect.
E
Oh cut it ouit.
Why did Jesus die? To bridge the gap between the lost...which is everyone...and God Whose holiness cannot even look upon sin
It is a SIN to pervert the gospel, given once for all....people who believe they need to add to God's perfection do not have clue Who God is...they do not know God
And a little warning here....there is no love lost for those who cause people to stumble
Jesus said it would be better to tie an anchor around their neck and throw them into the sea
This does not apply to actual physical chidlren only as we are called God's children and we call God Father
Your sentimental expressions are rubbish and I am being kind in telling you that
Why did Jesus die? To bridge the gap between the lost...which is everyone...and God Whose holiness cannot even look upon sin
It is a SIN to pervert the gospel, given once for all....people who believe they need to add to God's perfection do not have clue Who God is...they do not know God
And a little warning here....there is no love lost for those who cause people to stumble
Jesus said it would be better to tie an anchor around their neck and throw them into the sea
This does not apply to actual physical chidlren only as we are called God's children and we call God Father
Your sentimental expressions are rubbish and I am being kind in telling you that
Sinless Perfectionism is just legalism thinly veiled in "spirituality".
I have achieved sinless perfection according to my "walk" in the spirit.
No, you haven't.
I just said that I did, so , yes I did.
No, you didn't.
Here are 2 pages of bible verses to show you that I did and that its required.
If you achieved sinless perfection and perfect spirituality you would be perfectly humble and give all credit to the One who Made you that way. The Lord Jesus Christ.
I am perfectly spiritual and perfectly humble. I am the greatest person alive. The pinnacle of humanity.
No, you aren't...
I have achieved sinless perfection according to my "walk" in the spirit.
No, you haven't.
I just said that I did, so , yes I did.
No, you didn't.
Here are 2 pages of bible verses to show you that I did and that its required.
If you achieved sinless perfection and perfect spirituality you would be perfectly humble and give all credit to the One who Made you that way. The Lord Jesus Christ.
I am perfectly spiritual and perfectly humble. I am the greatest person alive. The pinnacle of humanity.
No, you aren't...
This parable has zero to do with our love for God or a test of our love until the end. 1 John 4 makes it very clear that we only love because he first loved us. Only the seed that fell on good ground made it.
Are you really this careless and clueless or does it just come natural for you?
Do you not see that you just contradicted yourself and your entire doctrine and theology by saying 3 made it, despite their sins?
Are you really this careless and clueless or does it just come natural for you?
Do you not see that you just contradicted yourself and your entire doctrine and theology by saying 3 made it, despite their sins?
I see your heart here Blain I really do, but you may love and pray for those in error, but you do not need to try to convince them of the kingdom. When you state you would die for someone despite their intent, you are making yourself a sacrifice and that is adding to what Jesus did. You and I will never come close to being righteous enough to die for someones sins.
Show me one place in the 4 Gospels, that Jesus chased someone down and forced them to take his message.
I want to make sure I am reading you right, are you suggesting that you would die for someones sins?
Show me one place in the 4 Gospels, that Jesus chased someone down and forced them to take his message.
I want to make sure I am reading you right, are you suggesting that you would die for someones sins?
John 10.17-18 says:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
The thing you are missing is that Jesus went to the cross out of obedience to what the Father told him to do. Jesus knew that many would reject laying down his life for them. Jesus did not chase down the young rich ruler and say:
Hey Buddy, Look here man, I know you are worth dying for and in a few weeks I will do that, so you should forsake all and follow me.
This is how most Christians "witness" today and it is so so wrong. They give a young rich ruler the business deal of a lifetime and when he walks away, they get in the flesh and feel the rejection of the Gospel personally and follow him and say:
Hey Buddy, Look here man, I know you are worth dying for and Jesus did that just for you and me, so you should forsake all and follow him, like I have.
Jesus told 82 disciples that if the message of the Gospel was rejected to shake the dust of their feet and continue on.
We love people that reject the message, we pray the Ephesians 1 prayer over them, but we do not engage them, try to change them, or chase them down. Love rejoices in the truth and when you share the truth and it is rejected, love still rejoices.
You would be hard pressed to show me anywhere in the Bible it says you are to die for another persons sins, and that seems to be what you are trying to imply. Despite certain posters errors, you love them enough to die for their error. That SON, is putting yourself on equal footing with Jesus, that you cannot do.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
The thing you are missing is that Jesus went to the cross out of obedience to what the Father told him to do. Jesus knew that many would reject laying down his life for them. Jesus did not chase down the young rich ruler and say:
Hey Buddy, Look here man, I know you are worth dying for and in a few weeks I will do that, so you should forsake all and follow me.
This is how most Christians "witness" today and it is so so wrong. They give a young rich ruler the business deal of a lifetime and when he walks away, they get in the flesh and feel the rejection of the Gospel personally and follow him and say:
Hey Buddy, Look here man, I know you are worth dying for and Jesus did that just for you and me, so you should forsake all and follow him, like I have.
Jesus told 82 disciples that if the message of the Gospel was rejected to shake the dust of their feet and continue on.
We love people that reject the message, we pray the Ephesians 1 prayer over them, but we do not engage them, try to change them, or chase them down. Love rejoices in the truth and when you share the truth and it is rejected, love still rejoices.
You would be hard pressed to show me anywhere in the Bible it says you are to die for another persons sins, and that seems to be what you are trying to imply. Despite certain posters errors, you love them enough to die for their error. That SON, is putting yourself on equal footing with Jesus, that you cannot do.
G
This is the key, IMO. If a believer falls for the sinless perfection non-sense. Its their choice. If we WANT the truth God will get it to us. Sinless perfection is CREATURE credit and to be honest, its in our nature to want some of the credit.
First and foremost, Sinless perfection is a direct attack on the Lord Jesus Christ and his character and nature. It attacks His grace and mercy and His perfect justice and righteousness. It takes Him off of the throne and puts the CREATURE on the throne.
We have a tendency to think that salvation is more advantageous to man. But it is more advantageous to God to save a man than it is for the man. It gives The lord His rightful glory and it reveals His grace,mercy,Justice and righteousness. These things revealed to mankind is salvation for mankind.
And sinless perfection directly attacks all these perfect attributes of our Lord and diminishes His Glory in His salvation of man.
First and foremost, Sinless perfection is a direct attack on the Lord Jesus Christ and his character and nature. It attacks His grace and mercy and His perfect justice and righteousness. It takes Him off of the throne and puts the CREATURE on the throne.
We have a tendency to think that salvation is more advantageous to man. But it is more advantageous to God to save a man than it is for the man. It gives The lord His rightful glory and it reveals His grace,mercy,Justice and righteousness. These things revealed to mankind is salvation for mankind.
And sinless perfection directly attacks all these perfect attributes of our Lord and diminishes His Glory in His salvation of man.
G
So you have resisted temptation to the level of Christs resistance of temptation?
Heb 12:4~~New American Standard Bible
You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Heb 12:4~~New American Standard Bible
You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
stop cherry picking verses and include the entire context, which has nothing to do with what you are making it out to be.
Heb 12.4-14
[SUP]4 [/SUP]You have not yet resisted [SUP][d][/SUP]to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore, we had [SUP][e][/SUP]earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of [SUP][f][/SUP]spirits, and live? [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, [SUP][g][/SUP]strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. [SUP]15 [/SUP]See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; [SUP]16 [/SUP]that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
Heb 12.4-14
[SUP]4 [/SUP]You have not yet resisted [SUP][d][/SUP]to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore, we had [SUP][e][/SUP]earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of [SUP][f][/SUP]spirits, and live? [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, [SUP][g][/SUP]strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. [SUP]15 [/SUP]See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; [SUP]16 [/SUP]that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
ANd and then lets include Vs1-3
Heb 12.103:
12 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the [SUP][b][/SUP]author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary [SUP][c][/SUP]and lose heart.
Heb 12.103:
12 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the [SUP][b][/SUP]author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary [SUP][c][/SUP]and lose heart.
Sparkman, JesusIsAll, Jason0047
Viligant_Warrior, Hepzibah, Blain
Joshua_Generation, Skinsk17, MarcR
Peacefulbeliever, Reborn, Royalscot
Notuptome, Skylove7, Hoffco
Ember, AchildofGod, Dcontroversal
Grandpa, Oldthennew, Gr8grace
Hi there
This thread reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:14-26, in which Timothy is raised above the strife round and about him by the exhortation of Paul in verse 15,
'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'
* The personal remarks and unkindness portrayed is dishonouring and injurous I believe.
We are all sinners saved by God's wondrous grace, and in God's eyes are 'pure', 'without blemish' and 'without spot': because of what Christ Jesus our risen Lord accomplished for us in His death and resurrection. What we are in God's eyes, we seek to portray in our daily walk: as we walk in newness of life before the Father, in Christ; but If we say we have no sin, 1 John 1:8, tells us that we lie and deceive ourselves.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Viligant_Warrior, Hepzibah, Blain
Joshua_Generation, Skinsk17, MarcR
Peacefulbeliever, Reborn, Royalscot
Notuptome, Skylove7, Hoffco
Ember, AchildofGod, Dcontroversal
Grandpa, Oldthennew, Gr8grace
Hi there
This thread reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:14-26, in which Timothy is raised above the strife round and about him by the exhortation of Paul in verse 15,
'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'
* The personal remarks and unkindness portrayed is dishonouring and injurous I believe.
We are all sinners saved by God's wondrous grace, and in God's eyes are 'pure', 'without blemish' and 'without spot': because of what Christ Jesus our risen Lord accomplished for us in His death and resurrection. What we are in God's eyes, we seek to portray in our daily walk: as we walk in newness of life before the Father, in Christ; but If we say we have no sin, 1 John 1:8, tells us that we lie and deceive ourselves.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
G
This is the crux of the problem in this debate. Set the sin aside, when we are saved and as we grow in Christ it becomes relatively easy for the believer to recognize sin. But it is very difficult for us to discern good and evil. And it actually takes meat of the word and bible doctrine in the soul for us to start recognizing the difference between good and evil.
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.
Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
In our quest to fix "immoral degeneracy" we may become "moral degenerates" in that quest, if we do understand that our good can be evil.
Why was good on the same tree as evil?
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.
Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
In our quest to fix "immoral degeneracy" we may become "moral degenerates" in that quest, if we do understand that our good can be evil.
Why was good on the same tree as evil?
I believe that there are a FEW past sins in my life that I have overcome and that do not tempt me anymore, because I have renewed my mind as Romans 12 instructs me too. I am led by the Spirit as instructed to be in Romans 8. I have overcome the wicked one because the Word of God abides in me as I john 2 commands me to be.
I do not overcome these few sins with my own strength or understanding, but through the grace of God, which gives me the ability to do in my Spirit, what I could not do in my flesh.
I also began praying for Grace[Heb 4.16] to overcome these few SINS, because I came to understand through the Word in Gen 3, Gen 4, James 1 & 4 and 1 John 2, that they were choices I was making and not actions I was helpless over.
I will never be perfected as Christ was or resist every temptation as Christ did, because I still fall and miss the mark on other things. However, there are some SINS that I have overcome through the grace[Ability] of God and not through my own strength. God grace cannot be confused with his love or his mercy, God grace is just not his favor, but his ability upon you to overcome the wicked one and his temptations.
James 1.13-19 says:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [SUP][a][/SUP]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [SUP][b][/SUP]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [SUP][c][/SUP]is accomplished, it brings forth death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not be [SUP][d][/SUP]deceived, my beloved brethren. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or [SUP][r][/SUP]shifting shadow. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be [SUP][s][/SUP]a kind of first fruits [SUP][t][/SUP]among His creatures.
The greatest lie Satan has over the church today is that you have no power over SIN and that it is an action a not a choice.
He knows if he can keep you believing you are powerless over your SIN, you will never come to udnerstand Grace or how to obtain it when you need it, which means you will never understand that righteousness is position and not personal performance, which means you will never, ever fully understand how Jesus walked the earth.
How good is good enough for you?
I do not overcome these few sins with my own strength or understanding, but through the grace of God, which gives me the ability to do in my Spirit, what I could not do in my flesh.
I also began praying for Grace[Heb 4.16] to overcome these few SINS, because I came to understand through the Word in Gen 3, Gen 4, James 1 & 4 and 1 John 2, that they were choices I was making and not actions I was helpless over.
I will never be perfected as Christ was or resist every temptation as Christ did, because I still fall and miss the mark on other things. However, there are some SINS that I have overcome through the grace[Ability] of God and not through my own strength. God grace cannot be confused with his love or his mercy, God grace is just not his favor, but his ability upon you to overcome the wicked one and his temptations.
James 1.13-19 says:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [SUP][a][/SUP]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [SUP][b][/SUP]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [SUP][c][/SUP]is accomplished, it brings forth death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not be [SUP][d][/SUP]deceived, my beloved brethren. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or [SUP][r][/SUP]shifting shadow. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be [SUP][s][/SUP]a kind of first fruits [SUP][t][/SUP]among His creatures.
The greatest lie Satan has over the church today is that you have no power over SIN and that it is an action a not a choice.
He knows if he can keep you believing you are powerless over your SIN, you will never come to udnerstand Grace or how to obtain it when you need it, which means you will never understand that righteousness is position and not personal performance, which means you will never, ever fully understand how Jesus walked the earth.
How good is good enough for you?
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For the record, I agree with the doctrine of original sin, and I reject Pelagianism and sinless perfectionism.
What I will try to do though is offer my perspective on how SP came about. It came to be, along with Pelagianism, as a reaction to what Pelagius believed to be licentious living in his day. From what I've read about his background, he believed that the concept or doctrine of original sin had been used as an excuse to keep on sinning. In other words, someone could say "well I have a sin nature, and I can't help but sin". Pelagius rightly posited that sin is a choice, but where he went wrong, IMHO, is that he also believed that sin was nothing more than a choice; that man could easily stop sinning altogether if he really wanted to.
Just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so also the rest of mankind, in Pelagius' view can simply choose to or not to sin. According to him, there is no inherited sin nature from Adam. We are all born with a clean slate.
While I believe that sin is indeed a choice, there is the propensity within man to sin just the same. That is why Christ had to come and die for us. If we could just stop sinning on our own, then there was no need for Christ to come. And I also believe that the sin problem is much greater than mankind or what mankind is able to comprehend. I feel that there are aspects of the nature of sin which are known only to God Himself, and that Christ dealt with those aspects when He died and rose again.
I hope I haven't hijacked the thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.
What I will try to do though is offer my perspective on how SP came about. It came to be, along with Pelagianism, as a reaction to what Pelagius believed to be licentious living in his day. From what I've read about his background, he believed that the concept or doctrine of original sin had been used as an excuse to keep on sinning. In other words, someone could say "well I have a sin nature, and I can't help but sin". Pelagius rightly posited that sin is a choice, but where he went wrong, IMHO, is that he also believed that sin was nothing more than a choice; that man could easily stop sinning altogether if he really wanted to.
Just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so also the rest of mankind, in Pelagius' view can simply choose to or not to sin. According to him, there is no inherited sin nature from Adam. We are all born with a clean slate.
While I believe that sin is indeed a choice, there is the propensity within man to sin just the same. That is why Christ had to come and die for us. If we could just stop sinning on our own, then there was no need for Christ to come. And I also believe that the sin problem is much greater than mankind or what mankind is able to comprehend. I feel that there are aspects of the nature of sin which are known only to God Himself, and that Christ dealt with those aspects when He died and rose again.
I hope I haven't hijacked the thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.