Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Elin said:
SeaBass said:
Elin said:
"Whosoever shall" does not equate to
"whosoever must. . .in order to be saved".
You're confusing your baloney with the words of Christ and Paul.
"whosoever must. . .in order to be saved".
You're confusing your baloney with the words of Christ and Paul.
Therefore those that as a matter of fact confess Christ, then Christ will confess them.
a statement of, nor a matter of, requirement or cause.
It is a matter of fact that whosoever denies Christ, Christ will deny them before God.
Are you suggesting one can go against these bible facts and be saved anyway?
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K
I think a study of James tells us that our salvation is not secured by works but it is demonstrated by works!
It is not secured by works, but James does show that our salvation is secured by faith.
And James shows that if a person wanders away from obeying the truth of salvation through Christ, they are not saved and headed to eternal life. Only if they come back to the Lord will their soul be saved is what James said.
[h=1]James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/h]
Works do not give one salvation, nor do they secure it, as it is the faith and rather one continues to believe or not that determines salvation. And for those who teach a person can not fall out of the faith and stop believing and be lead astray, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Paul, and James all say it does happen............
Jesus called belief a work in Jn 6:27-29. Those people asked Jesus what were are we to do and Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.
Matt 12:41 Jesus said the men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and in Joanh 3 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Their repentance is called a work that God could see, just like in Mk 2:1-5 those men's work is called faith that Christ could see.
Matt 12:41 Jesus said the men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and in Joanh 3 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Their repentance is called a work that God could see, just like in Mk 2:1-5 those men's work is called faith that Christ could see.
The NT usage of "works" regarding salvation is the works of man.
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[SUP]3[/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
So what does it mean to go about and establish ones own righteousness, Verses submitting themselves to God's righteousness?
The next verse gives a hint:[SUP]4[/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The ones going about to establish their own righteousness are those who believe they are saved by works, by keeping the law of Moses. If you say your own works and goodness and ability to obey the commandments and to keep the law are what saves you, then you are going about trying establish your own righteousness. But the scriptures say just the opposite. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.
[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Your righteous ability to obey the law and the rules is your own righteousness, not God's. God's righteousness is to have total faith in the Lord's love and care for you and forgiveness for your sins without doing any works to deserve it.
So what does it mean to go about and establish ones own righteousness, Verses submitting themselves to God's righteousness?
The next verse gives a hint:[SUP]4[/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The ones going about to establish their own righteousness are those who believe they are saved by works, by keeping the law of Moses. If you say your own works and goodness and ability to obey the commandments and to keep the law are what saves you, then you are going about trying establish your own righteousness. But the scriptures say just the opposite. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.
[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Your righteous ability to obey the law and the rules is your own righteousness, not God's. God's righteousness is to have total faith in the Lord's love and care for you and forgiveness for your sins without doing any works to deserve it.
So those you are governed by the mind and human reasoning, just cannot wrap their mind around it and believe it.
....and that old straw man makes another appearance.
Is your best argument that you can put forth is to put words in my mouth that I have never said?
Obeying God's will does not earn salvation but are a necessary condition that are a part of God's free gift of salvation. Your refusal to understand that does not make me wrong.
Is your best argument that you can put forth is to put words in my mouth that I have never said?
Obeying God's will does not earn salvation but are a necessary condition that are a part of God's free gift of salvation. Your refusal to understand that does not make me wrong.
D
If right doing (righteousness) does not save then the only alternative is wrong doing (unrighteouness) which does not save either and you leave man no way to be saved.
Nowhere does God expect man's righteousness to be sinlessly perfect. What right doing [righteousness] does is put one in Christ (Gal 3:27) and being in Christ one is then clothed by Christ's perfect righteousness.
Nowhere does God expect man's righteousness to be sinlessly perfect. What right doing [righteousness] does is put one in Christ (Gal 3:27) and being in Christ one is then clothed by Christ's perfect righteousness.
What does it mean to "do righteousness"? It is something you do that makes you righteous. It is not merely referring to some good deed or works that you do. If somebody who rejects Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then goes out and does some really good work such as giving a large donation to help the poor or does some incredible feat such as risking his life to save somebody else, is he therefore made righteous? Does his good and righteous deeds that he did mean that he is a righteous person? No, it doesn't. How do we know? Cause the bible says, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. And, [SUP]20[/SUP] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
So since the bible says that every single person in the world is an unrighteous sinner, how does one "do righteousness"? What can one do to become righteous? Not good works, that's for for sure. Well it seems to me since everybody is an unrighteous sinner, (even if they do good works and are sweet and nice people), then that means that the only way to become righteous is to have your sins forgiven you and to have righteousness imputed upon you by faith. So, what do you need to do in order for that to happen? I'm sure you already know the answer but I'll tell you anyway. Believe in Jesus, confess Him as your Lord and Savior. Once you have done this you have done righteousness and, therefore, righteousness is imputed upon you by faith, and all your sins and disobedience are forgiven you forever. your unrighteousness is washed away and righteousness has replaced it. It's all a work of God, and His righteousness, not your own works and righteousness.
They asked Jesus what shall WE DO that WE WORK the works of God? why did not Jesus answer their question with "do no works" or "do ot owrks for God will do all the work for you"?
Instead Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do, the work of believing.
God is not lost therefore God has to do the work of believing to be saved.
Instead Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do, the work of believing.
God is not lost therefore God has to do the work of believing to be saved.
Just because they asked for a work of man does not obligate Jesus to give them a work of man, when none exists.
D
The bible STILL says 'save yourselves', 'save thyself', 'cleanse ourselves', etc
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10[/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It's all about faith in Jesus, not about works. You're saved by Faith, not works, the scriptures are clear as a bell if your willing to receive it.
Still you do not understand. Men do not come to God except they be drawn. The Holy Spirit must draw them through the word of God. The entrance of Gods word bringeth light.
John 3:18
that light causes those who are lost to turn away
but those who are saved are drawn to the light who is Christ.
It is God moving and quickening those who are lost.
Without the Holy Spirit dead men cannot come to Christ.
It was the Holy Spirit that pricked the hearts of the hearers of Peters sermon.
The Comforter given as Christ left this world works to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ.
All the work for salvation is complete in Christ. Nothing left to do but receive.
John 3:18
that light causes those who are lost to turn away
but those who are saved are drawn to the light who is Christ.
It is God moving and quickening those who are lost.
Without the Holy Spirit dead men cannot come to Christ.
It was the Holy Spirit that pricked the hearts of the hearers of Peters sermon.
The Comforter given as Christ left this world works to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ.
All the work for salvation is complete in Christ. Nothing left to do but receive.
Another example? Acts 10:2,22 Cornelius was lost, spiritually dead yet he feared God, gave alms to the people and was a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews,
Can a Christian (one with faith) not have good works and his faith only (void of good works) save him anyway?
The Word of God says,
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you SHALL BE SAVED.
No ifs, ands, or butts.
The question is the order:
Bible order Eph 2 is
1) faith in the Savior,
2) new birth, recreated with new nature,
3) eternal life,
4) good works.
For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works!
Salvation is unto good works, not because of good works.
Good works inevitable follow regeneration & are the evidence of it, not the cause of it.
And remember:
I was alive apart from the law once,
but when the law came, sin revived & I died . . .
I am carnal, sold under sin.
For what the law could not do because flesh-weakness, God Did!
D
But you see. . .this is a religion the mind of man could never conceive.
So those you are governed by the mind and human reasoning, just cannot wrap their mind around it and believe it.
So those you are governed by the mind and human reasoning, just cannot wrap their mind around it and believe it.
[SUP]14[/SUP] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15[/SUP] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
You are still trying to create the impossible in trying to make one a slave to righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.
Rom 5:17 does not say the gift of righteousness is given to men UNCONDITIONALLY. You assume that it is.
Rom 5:17 does not say the gift of righteousness is given to men UNCONDITIONALLY. You assume that it is.
And that contrary to the meaning of "gift," which you thereby make into a wage.