Sinless Perfectionism

[Gr8grace]

For the record, I agree with the doctrine of original sin, and I reject Pelagianism and sinless perfectionism.

What I will try to do though is offer my perspective on how SP came about. It came to be, along with Pelagianism, as a reaction to what Pelagius believed to be licentious living in his day. From what I've read about his background, he believed that the concept or doctrine of original sin had been used as an excuse to keep on sinning. In other words, someone could say "well I have a sin nature, and I can't help but sin". Pelagius rightly posited that sin is a choice, but where he went wrong, IMHO, is that he also believed that sin was nothing more than a choice; that man could easily stop sinning altogether if he really wanted to.

Just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so also the rest of mankind, in Pelagius' view can simply choose to or not to sin. According to him, there is no inherited sin nature from Adam. We are all born with a clean slate.

While I believe that sin is indeed a choice, there is the propensity within man to sin just the same. That is why Christ had to come and die for us. If we could just stop sinning on our own, then there was no need for Christ to come. And I also believe that the sin problem is much greater than mankind or what mankind is able to comprehend. I feel that there are aspects of the nature of sin which are known only to God Himself, and that Christ dealt with those aspects when He died and rose again.

I hope I haven't hijacked the thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

Your spot on with the idea that we truly have no idea how BIG the sin issue is. There is no way we could stop sinning, because it is bigger than the capacity of our finite minds. It is why something infinite(Christ) had to pay the price.

We are all going to be shocked at the sin we still had in our lives when we get face to face with HIM.

 

[Jason0047]

Here's the thing. Folks are going to do works regardless. One's work is either evil or it is good. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruits (i.e. deeds). Meaning, if Christ (God) lives in you (who is the source of your salvation - 1 John 5:12), then good fruit and not evil fruit will be present in your life.

Jesus said be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. 1 Peter 4:1 says that those who suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter identifies certain false prophets as having eyes full adultery who cannot cease from sin. Paul says in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 that we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. Paul says be not deceived the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The author of Hebrews said, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. James said faith without works is dead. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Paul said that what he had written should be considered as the Lord's commandments. Paul also said, if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. John says if we say we have fellowship with him and do not keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. Hebrews says, if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. The Lord says, the just shall live by faith, but if any man draws back, my soul will have no pleasure in Him.

However, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrignteousness. Cleanse us. From. All. All. Unrighteousness. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Jason0047]

This parable has zero to do with our love for God or a test of our love until the end. 1 John 4 makes it very clear that we only love because he first loved us. Only the seed that fell on good ground made it.

Are you really this careless and clueless or does it just come natural for you?

Do you not see that you just contradicted yourself and your entire doctrine and theology by saying 3 made it, despite their sins?

In Matthew chapter 13. When someone who does not understand the Word, this is seed that the wicked one takes from their heart (Matthew 13:19). So obviously this is talking about a non believer who rejects God's Word.

The person who received seed into stony places received the word with joy but fell away due to persecution because he has no root within the Word (Matthew 13:20, 21). Now, lets understand something here. You cannot fall away from something you never had. An unbeliever cannot fall away because he is already fallen or lost. To put it to you another way, you cannot depart from Houston airport unless you were in Houston airport.

This same line of thinking is expressed to us in James, too.

James 4:4

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

​

Did you catch what James said? He said whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers are already enemies of God. They cannot become enemies of God. Only believers can become enemies of God.

Oh, and James was talking to believers in this passage for verse 5 and verse 11 confirm that he is talking to the brethren.

 

[Gr8grace]

Here's the thing. Folks are going to do works regardless. One's work is either evil or it is good. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruits (i.e. deeds).

No Jason. If an unbeliever can do it it is not spiritual. Fruit will not show up as overt deeds. An unbeliever can quit smoking,cussing,drinking,cheating,stealing,lying,fornicating. They can go to church, do good deeds, they can serve,do missions, profess Jesus Christ, walk an isle,ask Jesus into their heart, say some sinners prayer.

We CANNOT know a believer by his deeds. We can Know a believer by his FRUIT(i.e. doctrine in his soul, mental attitude, his right lobe,'heart'.....thinking.)

overt deeds tell us NOTHING. The doctrine they believe tells us everything.

 

[Jason0047]

No Jason. If an unbeliever can do it it is not spiritual. Fruit will not show up as overt deeds. An unbeliever can quit smoking,cussing,drinking,cheating,stealing,lying,fornicating. They can go to church, do good deeds, they can serve,do missions, profess Jesus Christ, walk an isle,ask Jesus into their heart, say some sinners prayer.

Your right to a certain point. There are many in the church today who do not actually believe God's Word. They can do many wonderful things for God. But they will never be able to stop sinning on some level. They will alway persecute real Christians because the children of the bond woman persecutes the children who are free.

We CANNOT know a believer by his deeds. We can Know a believer by his FRUIT(i.e. doctrine in his soul, mental attitude, his right lobe,'heart'.....thinking.)

overt deeds tell us NOTHING. The doctrine they believe tells us everything.

This is simply a flat out denial of Jesus' words in Matthew 7.

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Which is repeated in Matthew 12,

33 Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

 

[Gr8grace]

Your right to a certain point. There are many in the church today who do not actually believe God's Word. They can do many wonderful things for God. But they will never be able to stop sinning on some level. They will alway persecute real Christians because the children of the bond woman persecutes the children who are free.



This is simply a flat out denial of Jesus' words in Matthew 7.

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Which is repeated in Matthew 12,

33 Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Jason! what do you think they are doing in their sheep's clothing? Telling everyone to sin a way, be as evil as you want?

These were people who were as overtly righteous as we can imagine. They had their life cleaned up to the tee. See through this "perfection" and they are a wolf!

Look through their "perfection" in their righteous deeds as sheep and listen to their doctrine of demons(wolves.)

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

Tell me.

What good you may receive for that, if you win your life for your self, by lies, living according to you own desire, and lose your soul?

Do not deceive your selves

 

[Fubario]

People who are legitimately perfected by God appear to be perfect and are inwardly perfected, matured, and ready.
Why is this you ask? Because they are perfected by God.

Perfectionism is not a sin, it is the standard, excellence is something we should all strive for, lest we forget that love manifests itself through our heart and actions that correspond to our convictions. I believe firmly in the necessity to prove yourself as a worthy agent of grace who is capable of handling and receiving when permitted. I am against easy believers who lay back and don't work hard, I am against people who take things for granted, and wish people who did not take things seriously enough to realize the gravity of it all.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason! what do you think they are doing in their sheep's clothing? Telling everyone to sin a way, be as evil as you want?

These were people who were as overtly righteous as we can imagine. They had their life cleaned up to the tee. See through this "perfection" and they are a wolf!

Look through their "perfection" in their righteous deeds as sheep and listen to their doctrine of demons(wolves.)

Why are you not discussing the passages?

Are you not convinced by what they say?

Do you still need confirmation elsewhere in Scripture?

Well, Galatians 5 lets us know that the fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc. So we know that fruits are in fact deeds. For the work done in the believer's life is of God.

 

[jahsoul]

This again? *sigh*

I've stated this in other thread, but why is it hard to grasp the fact that when it comes to sin, we all have a choice. The BIBLE states that God will never give us a temptation that we cannot handle and and always provides way out. ( a scripture that's always misquotes as God will not give you more than you can bear). If you can be honest with yourself, name one sin that you have committed where you never had a moment to decide. (the warring in the mind). Everyday, we are tempted to sin because we have that nature in us but when I am presented with that temptation, what should I do? Sin because my flesh is weak, or believe that the power of God is stronger and depend on that in my time of weakness? Because my flesh is weak, the desire of the flesh is still present but at which point to I truly believe that God will finally pull me away from what he called me from? No one says that sin will just *poof* vanish, but if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. At the end of the day, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

[Jason0047]

This again? *sigh*

I've stated this in other thread, but why is it hard to grasp the fact that when it comes to sin, we all have a choice. The BIBLE states that God will never give us a temptation that we cannot handle and and always provides way out. ( a scripture that's always misquotes as God will not give you more than you can bear). If you can be honest with yourself, name one sin that you have committed where you never had a moment to decide. (the warring in the mind). Everyday, we are tempted to sin because we have that nature in us but when I am presented with that temptation, what should I do? Sin because my flesh is weak, or believe that the power of God is stronger and depend on that in my time of weakness? Because my flesh is weak, the desire of the flesh is still present but at which point to I truly believe that God will finally pull me away from what he called me from? No one says that sin will just *poof* vanish, but if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. At the end of the day, people will believe what they want to believe.

It doesn't make sense for Jesus to say for us to, "pray so as not to be led unto temptation," and for him to say, "sin no more," if he wanted us to still remain in defeat of the mindset that we will always sin at some point the rest of our lives. Jesus came to set the captives free. Sin shall no longer have dominion over them. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

In other words, if I told an alcoholic they should come to me whenever they have a moment of temptation to want to drink when they are trying to be sober free and if I told them to "do not drink ever again", what kind of impression would you get? Do you think I would want the alcholic to think I was lying and that I really did not want him to stop drinking. That maybe he can think he can drink sometimes on his road to recovery of being sober free?

 

[tribesman]

No Jason. If an unbeliever can do it it is not spiritual. Fruit will not show up as overt deeds. An unbeliever can quit smoking,cussing,drinking,cheating,stealing,lying,fornicating. They can go to church, do good deeds, they can serve,do missions, profess Jesus Christ, walk an isle,ask Jesus into their heart, say some sinners prayer.

We CANNOT know a believer by his deeds. We can Know a believer by his FRUIT(i.e. doctrine in his soul, mental attitude, his right lobe,'heart'.....thinking.)

overt deeds tell us NOTHING. The doctrine they believe tells us everything.

Yes, the gospel they believe, teach and profess will tell us who they are. Not their works or outer appearance. All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel (which is the good news of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone) are lost. No amount of their law-keeping and our feeling goody about them can make up for that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So it is better to give into the thinking you will forever do evil for God's good kingdom? What? That does not make any sense. Believers are to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus said so Himself.

typical holier than thou comment.

is it better to think your better than you really are. or is it better to strive to continually better yourself?

if you have made it, there is no need to grow. you have already made it, thats the danger of perfectionism. they are blind to areas they need to grow. blind to areas they need to change, and blind to areas they need to crucify. Because they think they have already made it. if they have not. they are not livig up to their own faulty doctrine.

 

[sparkman]

It doesn't make sense for Jesus to say for us to, "pray so as not to be led unto temptation," and for him to say, "sin no more," if he wanted us to still remain in defeat of the mindset that we will always sin at some point the rest of our lives. Jesus came to set the captives free. Sin shall no longer have dominion over them. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

In other words, if I told an alcoholic they should come to me whenever they have a moment of temptation to want to drink when they are trying to be sober free and if I told them to "do not drink ever again", what kind of impression would you get? Do you think I would want the alcholic to think I was lying and that I really did not want him to stop drinking. That maybe he can think he can drink sometimes on his road to recovery of being sober free?

So..if the guy comes back later and admits his sin of drinking again, what are you going to do? Declare him an unbeliever and kick his backside out? And say God bless you as he's flying out the door...

This is another danger of sinless perfectionism. It basically just causes phoniness in the membership, if you could find a sinless perfectionist church...people hide their sins rather than seeking counseling because they know they will find nothing but condemnation from their hypocritical membership.

By the way, how do you explain this verse if you deny that believers can sin?

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

 

[sparkman]

How Sinless Perfectionists View Themselves

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Your spot on with the idea that we truly have no idea how BIG the sin issue is. There is no way we could stop sinning, because it is bigger than the capacity of our finite minds. It is why something infinite(Christ) had to pay the price.

We are all going to be shocked at the sin we still had in our lives when we get face to face with HIM.

I see you have given the enemy the permission to live rent free in your head and he has allowed you to throw out all of the Bible as well. Your poetic form here makes for super spiritual mental assent, but has no basis in scripture.

God is not still dealing with the SIN issue today, he dealt with it over 2,000 years ago. To say God is still dealing with a BIG sin issue today is simply stating that the redemptive work of Jesus Christ was not good enough or powerful enough to take care of the SIN issue.

Either you are sinner or saved by grace, you are not both.

James 1.13-16 says:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [SUP][a][/SUP]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [SUP][b][/SUP]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [SUP][c][/SUP]is accomplished, it brings forth death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not be [SUP][d][/SUP]deceived, my beloved brethren.


This plainly tell us that SIN is a choice and 1 John 2 says we overcome the wicked one, because the word of God abides in us.
I still miss the mark and fall down and always will. I am not perfect and never will be, but I have access to the throne of grace[Ability] of God to overcome in my spirit, what I cannot do in the flesh.


Stop telling people how big your SIN issue is and start telling the devil how big your JESUS is!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see you have given the enemy the permission to live rent free in your head and he has allowed you to throw out all of the Bible as well. Your poetic form here makes for super spiritual mental assent, but has no basis in scripture.

God is not still dealing with the SIN issue today, he dealt with it over 2,000 years ago. To say God is still dealing with a BIG sin issue today is simply stating that the redemptive work of Jesus Christ was not good enough or powerful enough to take care of the SIN issue.

Either you are sinner or saved by grace, you are not both.

James 1.13-16 says:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [SUP][a][/SUP]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [SUP][b][/SUP]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [SUP][c][/SUP]is accomplished, it brings forth death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not be [SUP][d][/SUP]deceived, my beloved brethren.


This plainly tell us that SIN is a choice and 1 John 2 says we overcome the wicked one, because the word of God abides in us.
I still miss the mark and fall down and always will. I am not perfect and never will be, but I have access to the throne of grace[Ability] of God to overcome in my spirit, what I cannot do in the flesh.


Stop telling people how big your SIN issue is and start telling the devil how big your JESUS is!

I am a sinner saved by grace,

If I was perfect I would not need grace, grace would cease to exist in my life. because I have MERITED Gods favor. not recieved UNMERITED favor from God.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I am a sinner saved by grace,

If I was perfect I would not need grace, grace would cease to exist in my life. because I have MERITED Gods favor. not recieved UNMERITED favor from God.

The Bible says you are saved by grace or a sinner and not both. God's grace gives your spirit the ability to overcome your sin nature.

SO you are stating that you deserved God's grace because of something you do/did?

Unmerited favor[grace] means that you do not deserve what God is giving you.

 

[notuptome]

The Bible says you are saved by grace or a sinner and not both. God's grace gives your spirit the ability to overcome your sin nature.

Why did Paul struggle with this when he wrote in Romans 7:15-19

Are you more sanctified than Paul?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Why did Paul struggle with this when he wrote in Romans 7:15-19

Are you more sanctified than Paul?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In Romans 7, Paul is talking from his experience (or perspective) when he was a law abiding Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because in Romans 7:14, he says he is sold under sin and then at the end of Romans 7, when he points out Jesus Christ, Paul then states in Romans 8:2 that he is free from sin. In other words, if you believe Paul is speaking from the same perspective in both Romans 7 and 8, there would be a contradiction.