When does the rapture occur?

GaryA · May 28, 2015

flob said:

In post #2517, I was saying that the 144,000 are the only servants of God still alive on the earth at the point in time that is indicated in Revelation 7:2 -- in post #2526, I was emphasizing it all-the-more.

~ "Let us seal the servants of our God in their foreheads."

~ "Okay, 144,000 were sealed."

How can anyone not think that there is a very solid implication here that all of the servants of God were sealed?

In the first statement above, 'all' is implied explicitly:

"Let us seal [ all of ] the servants of our God in their foreheads."

( "till we have sealed [ all of ] the servants of our God in their foreheads" )

Sealed: 144,000

Not sealed: everyone else - all of whom are not servants of God

Born-Again Christians are servants of God.

"Now - think about this for a little bit..."

flob · May 28, 2015

I think I see what you're saying GaryA. It takes so long because I am so dull.

The reason I say that the 144,000 Hebrews in Revelation 7 are not born again in chapter 7 is because I understand that Israel, as a nation (however few or many survive), will be born anew at the end of the Great Tribulation. Not before or when it begins. Zechariah 12:8-14; 13:9.

I feel the reason Rv 7:3 calls them 'slaves of our God' is that because during the Great Tribulation they 'keep the commandments of God.' This is in contrast to the left-behind Christians who 'have the testimony of Jesus.'
12:17; 14:12. It appears to me that it's no longer possible to be born-anew once the Great Tribulation begins, EXCEPT for the nation of Israel, all at once, only when they see Christ rescue them at the climax, the conclusion, of the Great Tribulation.
Instead, the 'eternal good news' of 'fear God and give Him glory...and worship Him,' 14:6-7, is what is preached to the nations.

flob · May 28, 2015

John MacArthur (#2537) in his Revelation commentary is wrong that 'Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would be clothed in white garments.' Instead, what the Bible records Jesus saying in Rv 3:5 is that the overcoming believers will be clothed in white garments. In his same paragraph, brother MacArthur says 'white garments symbolize Christ's righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.' If white garments = Christ's righteousness imputed at salvation, then are not all believers, at Sardis and everywhere, already clothed with them? In addition to being wrong, brother MacArthur's interpretation thus contradicts itself. The white garments in 3:18---the Lord Jesus counsels us, the believers in the churches---'to buy' from Him. This is further Biblical proof that the white garments here are not the gift of righteousness given when we first believe. They are instead a matter of purchase so as to receive a reward rather than to suffer loss as believers. 19:8 defines these white garments: 'the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.' This is not the gift of righteousness and forgiveness for justification. (Neither is this works of law or self which we do.) Instead this is the righteousnesses Christ has done through us. Qualifying the saint for the marriage dinner of the Lamb in the 1000 years before the new heavens and the new earth. As a reward. 'Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb.' Brother MacArthur goes on to talk about crowns. Saying that angels are never promised crowns. This comment misrepresents the view he rejects. Which is not that these, or any, angels are 'promised' crowns; but that these angels Have crowns. Signifying authority. Not signifying victory. I can (and maybe will later) go on and on. This is why I heartily recommend that no dear saint, new believer or mature, waste their time or money with dear brother MacArthur's commentary. Jumping to the end of his comments, he reiterates the falsehood that John 14:1-4 speaks of going to be with Jesus someplace in some physical thing Jesus constructed for you. Lol. When John 14 itself, later in the chapter, defines the dwelling place as the believer himself, mingled with the Father and the Son, 14:23. 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make a dwelling place with him.' Cf 15:4 'Abide in Me and I in you.' 1 Jn 2:27 '...the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.'

GaryA · May 28, 2015

PlainWord said:

EXACTLY!!!!!

The 144,000 are the remnant of both 'Israel' and 'Church' at the same time.

flob said:

What I am saying is a matter of simple definition. Since the resurrection of Christ, there is no difference between Jew and Greek as far as salvation is concerned. There is no such thing as "servants of our God" that are not born-again. Israel-as-a-nation is a separate issue - salvation is the same for every man, Jew or Greek. The 144,000 cannot be "servants of our God" if they are not born-again.

There is no such thing as "left-behind" Christians.

Every Born-Again Christian except the 144,000 will die - whether by "natural causes", accident, sickness, etc. - or by being beheaded ( martyred ).

That is what I am saying...

Reborn · May 28, 2015

Revelation 14 states they are in lsrael, and no deceit is found in their mouths. (In what they teach?)

In Romans, Paul says he is of the tribe of Benjamin. The 12th tribe.
These tribes are clearly a specific group, who have a purpose.
Paul had a purpose, his life was dedicated to God. No deceit is found in what he taught.

We watch Netflix, and play on our phones, ..........and teach our guesswork.

The 144,000 are not who most think they are, nor are they the only ones alive when the Lord returns. IMO.

PlainWord · May 28, 2015

Quite possibly. I think Christ is referring to the 144K here.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

They are the ELECT for whom the days (Tribulation) are shortened.

EXACTLY. This is what trips them up so badly. There is no such thing as Raptured Saints and Left Behind Saints. There are only Saints and all living Saints enter Satan's Great Tribulation.

That does seem to be the message of Christ and John. It is certainly the case for all those in the effected regions. The big mystery to me isn't whether or not the church gets wiped out, it's the how and the when. Revelation 7 is pretty obviously a compare and contrast chapter. We have the 144K ELECT and preserved through the GT then we have the GM in heaven who "come out from" the GT - dead. The 144K may not be a literal 144K, it could be a bigger number, but let's not get sidetracked.

How the heck do 2.3 billion people get selectively killed out of every nation, tongue and tribe? Even if Muslims worldwide coordinate an attack on every church they can find, they wouldn't get half of us just based on time zones and the word getting out to stay home. Something "tricks" Christians to all come out and flock together.

Christ is warning us here:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive...‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

The great signs and wonders to deceive seems to be the same as what John discusses here:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast...

If we put the two passages together we see that the deception that both Christ and John discuss are dealing with the same entity who deceives with great signs and wonders. According to Jesus, "they" will tell us that it is Christ who has come. We are told NOT TO BELIEVE IT. Funny, if we were raptured, we wouldn't be here to be deceived. Do we have any more clues?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

Paul tells us that the Day Christ returns will not come until the Man of Sin is revealed. We know the Man of Sin is here before Christ returns because Christ destroys Him when He returns...

...And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming...

So we have a prerequisite to Christ returning which is the revealing of the Man of Sin. But we also have a prerequisite to the Man of Sin being revealed too, don't we?

...only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way...

The HE is italicized. We do not know what or who the "HE" is. Something has to be "taken out of the Man of Sin's way" before he reveals himself. A lot of people speculate that it's the Holy Spirit. But what if it's the church? If the church is gone, would it be easier for the Man of Sin to deceive the rest of the planet without a witness left to expose him?

So, what happens to the church, are they raptured before this? NO WAY!! Christ is warning Believers NOT TO GO OUT WHEN THEY ARE TOLD CHRIST HAS COME. Why? Because it isn't CHRIST. So what happens to those who do not listen? What happens to those who think there is a Pre-Trib Rapture and they go out? Paul tells us right here:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth...[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.

There you have it. A staged and phony rapture gets 2 Billion Christians to go out to a false rapture whereby they are slaughtered. This is why there is a GM in heaven, hungry, thirsty, (ashamed) and crying. I know, it sounds unbelievable and impossible, but I believe Satan has been setting this trip since Darby.

We have DECEPTION associated with DEATH associated with the LAWLESS ONE. Hmmm.

PlainWord · May 28, 2015

If I am correct in the above and correct about the 2 witnesses being the Church. Then this all ties together. Who kills the 2 witnesses?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

THE BEAST WHO ASCENDS FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT.

Who deceives with signs and wonders?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon...

THE BEAST COMING UP OUT OF THE EARTH.

Is this the same BEAST? BOTTOMLESS PIT vs. EARTH??? The Bottomless Pit is in the earth, right?

Reborn · May 28, 2015

PlainWord said:

Don't humans come from the earth.....dust?

"The earth" is used very specifically in scripture?
As in people?

The beast will rise up out of the people?
My take on it.

flob · May 28, 2015

That the 144,000 [in Rev chapter 7] cannot be 'servants of our God' if they are not born-again [7:3] is a good point.
I must rethink this matter, or re-utter it. What do you think the phrase 'who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus' in 12:17 and 14:12 means? That is central to what I am studying now.

If the 144,000 in chapter 7 are born of God, then what is the point of listing their origin? Since there's no difference between Jew and Gentile in the church, then why even mention that they are of Israel? Paul in Philippians mentions that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews and his Benjamin lineage to make the point that he regards all that as nothing. Nothing in comparison to gaining Christ. So again, if the 144,000 in chapter 7 are Christians, then why mention what Paul considered as 'loss'?

I think the 144,000 in chapter 14 are born of God, to say the least. Because I also think they are 'overcomers.' The first-ripened ones from the church. I think they are in the heavens, standing with the Lamb. Because at this juncture, the Lamb has not yet returned to the earth, to the Mount Zion in Israel. Instead, this is the heavenly Mount Zion, Hebrews 12:22, in the third heavens.

Most definitely I feel there will be left-behind Christians. In fact most Christians alive at the start of the Tribulation will be left-behind. I get this phrase from 1 Thessalonians 4:17, describing the last rapture, the harvest of the majority of the church (Rv 14:14-16): '...Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.' If being left behind were impossible, then the Lord Jesus would not tell His believers, in Luke 21:36, to 'beseech that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man.' If being left behind were impossible, then there would be no difference between firstfruits and harvest, in Revelation 14. There would just be a harvest, of the church, and that would be at the start of the tribulation rather than where it is in fact: at the end. If being left behind were impossible, then the church in Revelation 12, the woman, would not need to be nourished on earth for 3 1/2 years. Instead, she would have been caught up with her son. The woman in chapter 12 includes the church left behind. If none of the church were left behind, there would not be the phrase 'those who have the testimony of Jesus,' in 12:17 and 14:12. I am most curious what you (all) think that (entire) phrase means.

Since there is a harvest of the church at the end of the tribulation (in addition to the firstfruit at its start), and since the woman survives the length of the great tribulation on earth in chapter 12, most of the church will not be martyred nor die
during the Great Tribulation.

In my #2534 I was sharing my understanding of the sequence. I should try to return to that. And the 'trigger,' spiritually, of all these events. What it is God needs in order to consummate this age.

PlainWord · May 28, 2015

Reborn said:

Quite possibly. The Second Beast, beast from the earth, is not as clear as the BEAST of the SEA where the location can be found in Dan 7. The point I was trying to make wasn't really where the Beast comes from (he comes from Satan) its what he does, and to whom, when he gets here.

He deceives BELIEVERS in HUGE numbers and this deception involves "going out" thinking Christ has come. This scary scenario I have been putting forth for nearly two years on here.

PlainWord · May 28, 2015

flob said:

I sure want to be one of those "LEFT BEHIND" Christians!!! Those who go forth are going to be absolutely slaughtered and are going to be the GM in heaven. Those who go forth are deceived. Let me translate something for you.

Rev 7:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Do you know what it means spiritually to be hungry and thirsty? Of course you do. There are four things highlighted above said about the Great Multitude in heaven. John is using code taken from the OT prophets.

Hungry, thirsty, Sun strike and Crying

A search of key words brings us the below from Isa 65. In Isaiah 65 we see two groups of believers, just as we see in Rev 7 (144K and the GM):

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for grief of spirit.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name;

The above from Isa 65 shows two groups. A faithful chosen and blessed group and a scorned, ashamed and rebuked group. Each group are called by different names.

CURSED and MY CHOSEN

Would MY (GOD'S) CHOSEN be considered this?

...and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads...

And call His servants by another name;

flob · May 28, 2015

PW, in #2529, asks to be show a verse that supports that the Great Tribulation is triggered by the rapture.
Okay.
'And her child was caught up [raptio, Latin] to God and to His throne...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was there place found any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him...Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who had brought forth the man-child...And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast [Antichrist] coming up out of the sea...' Rv 12:5--13:1.

Dear PW states that a pre-Trib Rapture does not require 'watching.'
To the contrary, the Lord Jesus says
'Be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen [the Great Tribulation, Luke 21:20-27] and stand before the Son of Man [as in Revelation 12:5 and 14:1],' Luke 21:36.
The Lord Jesus also says
'So also will the coming of the Son of Man be. At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into' Mt 24:39-43.

PW continues that the pre-Trib rapture is taught as an involuntary event with no prerequisites. But that isn't the message to the churches.
PW is correct that most of Christianity grossly misteaches the pre-Trib rapture. To the contrary of that false teaching, there ARE prerequisites. Which IS the message to the churches.
In Luke 21:36 the Lord's prerequisite is that the believer be beseeching.
In Mt 24:39-43 the Lord's prerequisite is to Watch.
In Revelation 3:10 His prerequisite is keeping the word of His endurance.
In Revelation 12:5 His prerequisite is to be part of the man-child. The stronger part.
12:5 also mentions His kingdom on earth, and the responsibility, and reward, of it: 'to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.' This repeats the message to the church in Thyatira [a prefigure of the believers within Catholicism]: 'he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father' 2:26-27. Thus the prerequisite here is 'to overcome.'

PW stated that Jesus Christ gives no signs of His Coming that are before the GT.
PW is correct on this one, because His Coming begins with the GT, which begins with the firstfruit-rapture of the overcomers.
The majority of the church will be left behind to be 'ripened' by the heat of the Great Tribulation.
Rv 14:1-5; 12:5--13:1; 14:14-16; 1 Thes 4:14-18.

PW feels that he sure wants to be one of those "LEFT BEHIND" Christians!!!
Please don't wish such a thing.
But if you are left behind, gain the Lord during the GT! The Lord has the same desire for us now. That we gain Him all the time.

PW feels that Those who go forth are going to be absolutely slaughtered and are going to be the GM in heaven.
This is probably incorrect. What does PW mean by 'go forth'?
The Great Multitude in heaven are not necessarily martyrs who had been slaughtered. Though many of them surely are.

PlainWord · May 28, 2015

Flob,

Nope. The Child is/was Christ, not the Church. Rev 12 deals with Israel. Rev 11 deals with the Church.

Nope again. It is not the GT that we are to escape, it is the Wrath of God that we are to escape. When Christ returns, He gathers His ELECT, the remnant. That's why they are standing before him. The scene is shown as you quote it.

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand...

The GT is over before Christ returns. We see that in Mat 24:29-31.

Correct. The timing is after the GT, the passage is found after Mat 24:29 which tells us the GT is over.

You go on in the above but the problem is you invented an earlier, additional, pre-trib return that simply does not exist. You take post trib returns and split them into two returns when they belong to one return. If you start seeing the truth (ONE RETURN) everything fits!! EVERYTHING.

I do wish such a thing. You see a rapture to heaven. I see a great deception, going out of Christians to be slaughtered. I don't want to be in your group!!

Correct, they are not martyrs. They are the deceived. Paul and Jesus preach and warn about NOT BEING deceived. This implies some will not listen and become deceived.

VCO · May 28, 2015

flob said:

Apparently, you are not as familiar with Dr. John MacArthur's teachings as I am. He does not think that the term Believer refers to everyone that claims the name, but rather only to those who are genuinely born again, having by the power of the Holy Spirit repented and received Jesus Christ as LORD meaning MASTER. THAT is where Salvation begins with the Holy Spirit having brought our once dead human spirit to Eternal Life; and that is what makes us a genuine believer who has the inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus as our personal LORD. Sanctification is a life-long walk of practicing righteousness, where we become more and more like Christ.

So when Dr. MacArther says "the believers at Sardis", he is not referring to EVERYONE, nor any of those who went thru the wide gate of easy believism, or only acknowledge the facts about Jesus Christ are true (which even the demons do); but rather Dr. MacArthur is referring only to those who "Know HIM" with that inner personal Love relationship.

MacArthur: "Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5)."

He teaches from the NASB:

Revelation 3:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Matthew 7:21-24 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

flob · May 28, 2015

Polite lol. That is what Catholicism teaches. That Rv 12's child is Christ. To which I ask: What is the point?
Jesus' Revelation, which God gave to Him to show to John, includes a vision of His incarnation? And Mary?
Mary who-------------goes away to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years after she gives birth to Jesus? And whom armies were sent after? In the interest of trying to help me PW, feel welcome to give a little more than a bare, bald statement that you feel
Rv 12 is 'about Israel.' What about Israel? That the woman is Israel? The man-child? Both? Israel is caught up? Israel is not caught up? Israel ............. goes to the wilderness? Is that the Diaspora? Is Hitler in here somewhere too? I apologize. I don't want to do your work for you. Yes, Israel is included in the Woman. In that she is all of God's people. Her crown of 12 stars---the Patriarchs. The moon---the age of the law. The sun---the New Testament believers. As Paul says in Galatians, the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all. She brings forth a stronger part. A man-child. No, that is not Jesus individually. The stronger part is the overcomers from all the ages. Especially the church, since that is the most numerous. They are caught up. The rest of the believers, both deceased and alive, are left behind. Left behind.............until the 3 1/2 years is completed. Then they also are caught up. But to the cloud, to meet the Lord in the air.

Rv 11, since you mention it, is about the two witnesses. No need to reach speculatively or 'mysteriously' who they are. They appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. One of them he mentions by name as preceding His coming. John the Baptizer was 'in the spirit of Elijah.' Knowing that one of the witnesses is named Elijah. And is in fact Elijah, himself raptured in the book of Kings, it shouldn't be overly 'mysterious,' nor goofy, to contemplate who the other witness is. Some say Enoch. I say Moses. For reasons already given and abundantly available. Revelation quotes Zechariah where they are discussed also. Rv 11 talks about the city [Jerusalem] and about the scene in heaven. Including the angelic worshippers and leaders. That is not the church. In brief sum: if you feel that Rv 11's topic is the church, please feel welcome to provide any support for that, especially in light of what Rv 11 in fact says.

The GT is the wrath of God, as Rv says repeatedly. Eg 6:17. And overcomers are promised to escape this. By rapture. For that matter, the bulk of the church also 'escapes' (as the Woman in Rv 12) to the extent God prepares a place for us/them on earth during the GT. Rv 14 is in a proper sequence. It is not jumbled up. The firstfruit, a farmer or gardener, might be able to help you, differs in time from the harvest. One is early, one is later. One is small, one is larger. Exactly as Rv 14 follows. 14:1-5 is the pre-Trib rapture. 6-7 is the eternal gospel spoken to all the nations on the earth. 8 is the destruction of the Great Babylon, specifically Roman Catholicism as the great counterfeit of the church, by Antichrist during the GT. 9-11 is more gospel to the nations of the earth: Not to worship the Beast. 12 mentions the Christians left behind. Those who 'keep the faith of Jesus.' And also mentions the Jews, apparently (I'm still studying that one), who 'keep the commandments of God' and who a remnant of at least will be preserved to be born of God at the time of Mt 24:30-31.
Rv 14:13 mentions the church martyrs during the GT. 14-16 is the harvest of the church at the end of the GT. Unlike 1-5, not 'to the throne.' But rather reaped by the Son of Man who is on the cloud now. And lastly, 17-20 is the harvest of the 'grapes.' To be squashed. Armageddon.

Your mistake PW is in labelling Christ's one 'long' journey, beginning from where He is now, His throne in the highest heavens, to the cloud, and eventually to the earth, as 'two returns.' That's not 'two returns,' lol. Something I've also heard from Catholics I've debated with. That's one return. Lasting, in all, 3 1/2 years. For example, Christ's judgment seat ('bema') of His saints, mentioned in 2 Cor 5 and Rm 14, transpires during this time too. To see which saints will accompany Him, Rv 17:14; 19:9, 14; and which will not.
In regard to 'inventing,' lol, a pre-Trib rapture: i'm not the One who first spoke or authored Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10,
or Revelation 12 and 14; nor Matthew 24:40-44. Christ, God, is.

We both see a great deception in regard to the rapture. Your response is to deny that matured, overcoming firstfruits are taken.......before the whole harvest is ready. Your response even shows that you cannot fathom or imagine, as a Christian, why God would have such a 'need.' What possible spiritual value it would be. (Not to us............but to God.) To do such a thing. That's 'okay.' If you're ready, then you'd be raptured pre-Trib whether you believe in it or not : )

As for your speculation that Antichrist or someone will 'stage' a false and grand 'rapture event' so as to gather and surprise most of the church, and then slaughter them.........which results in their becoming martyrs (resurrected and raptured anyway,
as a 'great multitude' to God?)..............I think that speaks for itself. That sounds like believing in a false rapture........turns into them getting raptured anyway. Have I represented your thought accurately?

flob · May 28, 2015

In regard to brother MacArthur, he sounds like one of the deceived ones who PW mentions.
Who believes that there is only one rapture. And that it is pre-Trib. And that all the church is taken.
Regardless of their condition or fellowship with Christ.

I am familiar with those errors. For example, brothers persuaded like him, suggest that Mt 7:23 'I never
knew you' refers to unbelievers. When, in fact, the sense (and probably best translation) is 'I never acknowledged
you.' Only real believers can, in fact, cast out demons in His name and prophesy in His name; and for that matter call Him 'Lord.' But He did not direct them to do the work they did. This matches 1 Cor 3 where believers can either build with Him, gold, silver, precious stone; or can seek to build the church with their own ideas and works, wood, grass, stubble. Both are judged. The former results in the believers' gain. The latter, in their loss. Yet the believers themselves are all saved.
No child of God, no matter how much of a 'failure' or naughty, can ever perish eternally. 1 Cor 3 and Mt 7 also match Mt 24--25 where believers are either rewarded or punished. As both servants and virgins. Poor teachers, like brother MacArthur (who is himself a brother in the Lord, hallelujah!) probably teach that the five foolish virgins are unbelievers. I praise God for any good interpretations he has. But this, like his other misinterpretations, is ridiculous.

VCO · May 28, 2015

flob said:

What do you mean no longer possible to be born-anew once the Great Tribulation begins? I disagree, if you are talking about BORN AGAIN.

John 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Just because the HOLY SPIRIT, is taken out of the way; does NOT mean HE cannot cause the dead human spirits to be born into eternal life after HE is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit had NO problem doing that before HE was sent to earth as "ANOTHER COMFORTER", why would you think the Omni-Present Holy Spirit would have a problem doing it after He is taken out of the way?

Exodus 28:3 (HCSB) [SUP]3 [/SUP] You are to instruct all the skilled craftsmen, whom I have filled with a spirit of wisdom, to make Aaron’s garments for consecrating him to serve Me as priest.

Exodus 31:1-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The LORD also spoke to Moses:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “Look, I have appointed by name Bezalel son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I have filled him with God’s Spirit, with wisdom, understanding, and ability in every craft
[SUP]4 [/SUP] to design artistic works in gold, silver, and bronze,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] to cut gemstones for mounting, and to carve wood for work in every craft.
Exodus 35:31 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] He has filled him with God’s Spirit, with wisdom, understanding, and ability in every kind of craft

Deuteronomy 34:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites obeyed him and did as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Micah 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On the other hand I am filled with power— With the Spirit of the LORD— And with justice and courage To make known to Jacob his rebellious act, Even to Israel his sin.

Psalm 51:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not banish me from Your presence or take Your Holy Spirit from me.

There is be ONE TRUE FAITH, the Faith of Abraham.

OT Saints BELIEVED GOD would send the Messiah, and they were willing to submit to HIM as LORD.

NT Saints BELIEVED GOD did send the Messiah, and they are willing to submit to HIM as LORD.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH. The word CHURCH is not in the NT in the original Greek; but rather it says ASSEMBLY:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

Why is that important? Because the first man in the Assembly that HE has been building was ADAM.

Deuteronomy 23:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The children born to them in the third generation may enter the LORD’s assembly.

Psalm 40:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I did not hide Your righteousness in my heart; I spoke about Your faithfulness and salvation; I did not conceal Your constant love and truth from the great assembly.

Psalm 89:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, And to be held in reverence by all those around Him.

Sounds to me like you had better be building a lot more pews than you planned for the Great Assembly, because it includes OT Saints and Tribulation Saints too.

No it has never been ALL who assemble who are part of the Great Assembly of Believers, but rather it is those whose human spirit's have been born into eternal life. It still is good that the rest expose themselves to the teaching of HIS WORD, for faith comes by HEARING the Word of GOD taught.

Matthew 20:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

VCO · May 28, 2015

flob said:

NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT Dr. MacArthur teaches. Everyone on the Broad Road thinks he or she is a Christian, but only the ones who came through the Narrow Gate are truly born again. And notice that those Unbelievers in Mat. 7 crying out "LORD, LORD" all think they are Christians because they acknowledge who JESUS IS and bow to Him in his presence once in awhile. But HEY, the 2000 demons in the demoniacs at Gadara did that much.

flob · May 28, 2015

The demons called Him Lord? What is the narrow gate?

Because i'm slow i'm missing a little of your Assembly talk. The ekklesia doesn't include unbelievers. Or nonregenerated.
It is only individuals who are joined to the Lord. The ekklesia is the Body of Christ. And He prayed for us all to be one, Jn 17.

Yes, that verse, in Thessalonians? About the that which restrains being taken out of the way, I think fits this topic of the Great Tribulation. Because an 'eternal gospel,' lol, not a 'different gospel' (Gal), is preached to the world in the Great Tribulation by the angels flying in mid-heaven, gives me cause to think being born of the Spirit is no longer available. (Except, like I said, for Israel when they see Him whom they pierced and repent, at Armageddon.) Now that I think about it, I think the verses in Zechariah talk about a fountain of grace being opened (to Israel at the end). Which might also suggest that it is closed at the start of the Great Tribulation. That's just my immediate wondering.
I'm not talking about the Holy Spirit being Unable. No. I'm talking about God, in His set-up, in His arrangement, taking His Spirit away. Taking the possibility of regeneration away anymore once the last 3 1/2 years begin.
(Like I say: Except for Israel at Armageddon.) I love the topic of Another Comforter, Jn 14, by the way. Hence my strong reaction to John MacArthur's misinterpretation regarding John 14. But I don't want to harp on that, or make you get offended or defensive about MacArthur. I just want to enjoy the word. What I tell folks to do is ask Why?
Why would God do what I'm saying He appears to do---take away the opportunity to be reborn then?
There is the fact of it being taken away-----I don't necessarily want to argue it---I'm just saying it's visible to me in the Mt 25 judgment of 'sheep and goats.' Where the nations aren't judged whether they received the Lord or not. But how they treated the Lord--------namely, how they treated those left behind. If you were one in those nations----wouldn't you rather go all the way----believe into the name of Jesus and be baptized and born of God, rather than just being a friend to the persecuted saints? I see this matter of 'no more regeneration...' in the very fact that there ARE nations during the Millenium. (And for eternity in the new heavens on the new earth.) Where else do they come from? There's the lake of fire---------there's the New Jerusalem-------and there's this third group, the nations outside the New Jerusalem. (Again, the New Jerusalem is a sign.)

So there is the fact of what i'm talking about, I can try to present to you.
But there is also the reason----Why would God have it so? Have nations restored to an innocent state, like Adam and Eve
before the fall? Apparently for Him and His sons to preside over and be marveled at by----------forever

VCO · May 28, 2015

flob said:

If you are going to continue to falsely accuse MacArthur of teaching, something he does not. May I suggest you listen to a few of his sermons before you make any more of those FALSE ASSUMPTIONS.
Grace to You
You can sort them by books of the Bible too.

Sitting in Church does not make you Christian, any more than sitting in a garage would make you a car.

A real Christian is one who has not only heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but responded to it by the power of the Holy Spirit. NO, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS, but rather to WHAT the Holy Spirit is doing in the Heart to your human spirit. HE pours the LOVE of GOD into your heart, Rom. 5:5. That Love of GOD produces within us:

Conviction of Sin,
Confession and Repentance,
A deep personal LOVE FOR HIM,
A desire to LOVE HIM by submitting to HIS Lordship as MASTER,
A desire to Show that LOVE for HIM by Obeying HIM.

Anything less is not yet a CHRISTIAN. That expression HE uses about "NOT KNOWING HIM", is a reference to the LACK of that deep personal LOVE relationship that only comes after that LOVE of GOD has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which PRODUCES all that within us. It literally is the HOLY SPIRIT causing our once dead human spirit to be born into Eternal Life.

That personal Love relationship between JESUS and us is a VERY REAL THING. It happened to me after my third attempt at suicide the last week of Dec. 1977. This wave after wave of GUILT for my utterly sinful lifestyle, washed over me, and I was one who thought I was a Christian because I was raised in a Church and took up space on a pew fairly frequently; but I found out that NIGHT, I was nothing more than Church goer, with NO real relationship with Jesus Christ. I fell to my knees weeping and bawling like a baby, crying out to HIM for forgiveness. Not only for attempting suicide three times in 4 days, but also for my WHOLE LIFESTYLE. As I wept uncontrollably, I verbally was begging HIM to take control of my life, surrendering totally to HIS WILL. OH YES! HE came in, The Holy Spirit TOO, bringing my human spirit to become TOTALLY ALIVE! That was the moment I became a real CHRISTIAN, instead of an unsaved Church GOER. That Personal Relationship gets nothing but better, and it is VERY REAL TO ME EVERY DAY. HE LITERALLY CHANGED ME FROM THE INSIDE OUT.

It is THOSE who have that Personal Love Relationship with HIM whom He will Call Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. Will others be turn to Receive HIM and be Saved during the Great Tribulation? YES MANY, including a multitude of Jews, but they will be martyred (except for the 144,000), and their born again spirits will be present in Heaven for at least part of the Wedding Ceremony too. They will receive their Resurrected Glorified bodies at His Second Coming. Is it unusual to have many more guests at the Wedding Supper, than at the week long Wedding Ceremony. NOT AT ALL, it is traditional to have a many more guests at the Wedding Supper.

Proof that "KNOWING HIM" is related to that LOVING Personal Relationship with HIM as LORD:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

1 John 2:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

NOTE: The verb "keep" is in the Greek Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep. It is the direction of one's life, not the perfection of it. What it we do stumble along the way? He left us instructions for that too: SEE 1 John 1:9.

When does the rapture occur?

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