Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"
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I have always found this perspective interesting.
For me it helped to replace God with love.
You have to put the needs of everyone above family, because anyone can choose to do evil, but our loyalty is to righteousness and love above family or friendship allegiance.
Without this, corruption spreads as more and more people stay loyal to evil behaviour because to stand for reality and truth matters less.
It is a cornerstone of who God is, and what the gospel is, but many do not understand or see this properly, so it is no minor issue. To not see this point unfortunately tends to indicate the lack of an encounter with Jesus.
For me it helped to replace God with love.
You have to put the needs of everyone above family, because anyone can choose to do evil, but our loyalty is to righteousness and love above family or friendship allegiance.
Without this, corruption spreads as more and more people stay loyal to evil behaviour because to stand for reality and truth matters less.
It is a cornerstone of who God is, and what the gospel is, but many do not understand or see this properly, so it is no minor issue. To not see this point unfortunately tends to indicate the lack of an encounter with Jesus.
No, you don't get to change what is written. That is, indeed, the way Jesus "meant" it, but the 'authoritatively' written text declares that hating your entire family is a requisite to being a disciple.
This is the frightening thing about calling any verse you find in the Bible, "authoritative.' In my many years on this Earth, I have run across way too many people who honestly DO believe they are supposed to hate their families if they are not believers. This is too close to the same narrow thinking of the snake handlers in Appalachia. They do not handle snakes because they just thought it would be cool. They do it because the Bible clearly (to them) gives them 'authority" since the statement is plainly written in the book, that "believers WILL pick up serpents."
This is the frightening thing about calling any verse you find in the Bible, "authoritative.' In my many years on this Earth, I have run across way too many people who honestly DO believe they are supposed to hate their families if they are not believers. This is too close to the same narrow thinking of the snake handlers in Appalachia. They do not handle snakes because they just thought it would be cool. They do it because the Bible clearly (to them) gives them 'authority" since the statement is plainly written in the book, that "believers WILL pick up serpents."
The problem is you are distinguishing yourselves as a separate faith or belief system. You are claiming you represent the authorative nature of the gospel, yet you do not. And the difference is not minor, it is massive, and has major emotional and life changing implications.
The latest idea is the spirit of Jezebel, or christians believe as they do because they are possessed by demons. Churches split over these issues, families break up, so it is no minor point. So no one is going to back off.
But it is not slander to try and investigate what the differences are and how they came about. It also does have spiritual implications, and doctrines of demons are involved. It has got so bad, people are being banned from entering some countries because of the political etc implications of their ideas. It is a small step between fanaticism and taking deep insult to physical aggression and violence.
Do you regard us as evil taking the positions we do?
The latest idea is the spirit of Jezebel, or christians believe as they do because they are possessed by demons. Churches split over these issues, families break up, so it is no minor point. So no one is going to back off.
But it is not slander to try and investigate what the differences are and how they came about. It also does have spiritual implications, and doctrines of demons are involved. It has got so bad, people are being banned from entering some countries because of the political etc implications of their ideas. It is a small step between fanaticism and taking deep insult to physical aggression and violence.
Do you regard us as evil taking the positions we do?
V
Your characterization of what I have said, and your attempts to justify your warping of the posts regarding the cessation of the spiritual gifts does a great disservice to you, your rationality, and your veracity. Again, whether you realize it or not, you twist what has been said and in the end utterly undermine your statements as being contrary to everything you've said.
I am going to respond to you in a way that shouldn’t be necessary, given we are brothers in Christ and you have no basis whatsoever to make claims as you have made in the last two post to which I have replied. You and other state that those of us who do not believe the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid today “only believe part of the Bible.” That’s simply not true, and a gross oversimplification of our position.
We could just as easily say that you do not understand the Bible at all, because you discount the Scriptural evidence that the gifts ceased, just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Your view is that that is not the case yet, though I’m sure you agree that with Paul’s statement, they were destined to cease at some point. You don’t believe that time has come. We do, and in fact believe that time is long ago passed.
It is foolish for anyone to say that God does not deal miraculously in this world today. He speaks, He heals, He even does signs and wonders in all believers’ lives today. Every single one of us is a testimony to His miracles, knowing that He started with a tattered, lost, scarred and dying soul literally murdered by the sin within each and every one of us, and made us a new creation. If that isn’t a miracle, they do not exist.
The question at hand is not, as you attempt to make us say, “Does God do miracles, signs and wonders, in this day and age?” It is not even “Is the Holy Spirit free to dispense the gifts of healing, prophecy, even tongues, if He sees fit?” The answers are “Of course He is!” You claim they are readily available to anyone who seeks them. I say God is not that careless in His economy. In fact, they are rarely given. They simply aren’t needed that often.
You cannot find anywhere in the historical accounts of the church any evidence whatsoever that anyone other than the Twelve apostles and their immediate close associates did these signs and wonders on a regular basis. Paul even gave a reason for this.
Do you also argue that you are an apostle, or if you don’t actually perform signs and wonders, that those around you who do are apostles? I doubt that. The signs and wonders miracles were, according to Paul, given he and the other apostles and their associates to confirm the message of Christ.
It is similar to the statement in Acts 2:22 that Jesus was “… a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him … “Jesus needed the confirming testimony of God because His appearance and message was radical in its revelation, even though the rabbis of the time should have been able to see Him as Messiah by the testimony regarding Him in their Law and Prophets.
That message is now confirmed in us, the believers. Our changed lives, the very survival of Christianity for 2,000 years, and the preservation of truth in Scripture are testimony to the efficacy and veracity of God’s word.
I understand there may be circumstances in the Third World where people who have never known the Bible, never been exposed to the Gospel, or have never considered there is anything other than their own small world in this universe, might need to have a new message confirmed through other than Christian testimony. But again, these are extremely rare instances.
There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that indicates tongues, prophecy, knowledge, or healings were for any purpose other than confirming the message of those spreading the Gospel. You cannot tell me that a bunch of Christians in Brownsville Assembly or Airport Vineyard in Toronto needed any kind of confirmation of a message from God. They had been exposed to the Gospel, they allegedly knew Jesus. Why in His holy name would they need to start babbling like fools or barking like dogs to “confirm” anything about Him?
This is the vast majority of how these “gifts” are manifested today. I don’t believe it is an exaggeration at all to say that all such manifestations in American and other developed-nation churches where the Gospel has been preached for centuries are abuses of the biblical understanding of the miraculous gifts,
The Holy Spirit today indwells the believer from the moment he/she believes. He seals us for the day of redemption. He certifies us as “in Christ.” He assures of our eternal security. He reveals truth. He helps us properly exegete and understand God’s word. He reveals to our spirits and mind the whole counsel of God regarding worship, doctrine, and Christian living.
The only reference we see in the Bible to the use of tongues in particular – but which I believe we can apply to all the miraculous signs – is their improper use, in the church at Corinth. No, Paul didn’t totally ban the use of those signs and wonders, but he said in the previously referenced thirteenth chapter that those signs and miracles would cease – and they have. The “perfect” has come – not Christ, as so many claim and as I refuted in a previous post, but the completion of God’s revelation of Himself through Scripture. That completion is grounded in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
He did not say “to lead you the manifestation of miraculous signs.” In fact, the concept of the word “helper” – parakletoß fact (parakletos) – is anything but ostentatious behavior, but a quiet leadership, the Third Person of God destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles after His ascension to the Father. His mission is to lead us to a deeper knowledge of the Gospel and give us divine strength needed to enable us to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom.
To make Him a circus pony doing tricks with language and animal imitation – or even the more subtle acts of misusing and abusing spiritual gifts that, in the vast majority of Christian opinion, are no longer valid or necessary except in the most rare and extreme circumstances, utterly fails to honor God, and in fact defames Him.
That’s my last word on this subject. Those who want to continue this practice, feel free. I don’t have to witness it. I’ve tried to warn, however, that it is disruptive, invalid, and unbiblical. But you do what you want.
And I really don’t care if you thing I only believe “part of the Bible.” I know better.
I am going to respond to you in a way that shouldn’t be necessary, given we are brothers in Christ and you have no basis whatsoever to make claims as you have made in the last two post to which I have replied. You and other state that those of us who do not believe the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid today “only believe part of the Bible.” That’s simply not true, and a gross oversimplification of our position.
We could just as easily say that you do not understand the Bible at all, because you discount the Scriptural evidence that the gifts ceased, just as Paul said they would in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Your view is that that is not the case yet, though I’m sure you agree that with Paul’s statement, they were destined to cease at some point. You don’t believe that time has come. We do, and in fact believe that time is long ago passed.
It is foolish for anyone to say that God does not deal miraculously in this world today. He speaks, He heals, He even does signs and wonders in all believers’ lives today. Every single one of us is a testimony to His miracles, knowing that He started with a tattered, lost, scarred and dying soul literally murdered by the sin within each and every one of us, and made us a new creation. If that isn’t a miracle, they do not exist.
The question at hand is not, as you attempt to make us say, “Does God do miracles, signs and wonders, in this day and age?” It is not even “Is the Holy Spirit free to dispense the gifts of healing, prophecy, even tongues, if He sees fit?” The answers are “Of course He is!” You claim they are readily available to anyone who seeks them. I say God is not that careless in His economy. In fact, they are rarely given. They simply aren’t needed that often.
You cannot find anywhere in the historical accounts of the church any evidence whatsoever that anyone other than the Twelve apostles and their immediate close associates did these signs and wonders on a regular basis. Paul even gave a reason for this.
2 Corinthians 12, NASB
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
Do you also argue that you are an apostle, or if you don’t actually perform signs and wonders, that those around you who do are apostles? I doubt that. The signs and wonders miracles were, according to Paul, given he and the other apostles and their associates to confirm the message of Christ.
It is similar to the statement in Acts 2:22 that Jesus was “… a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him … “Jesus needed the confirming testimony of God because His appearance and message was radical in its revelation, even though the rabbis of the time should have been able to see Him as Messiah by the testimony regarding Him in their Law and Prophets.
That message is now confirmed in us, the believers. Our changed lives, the very survival of Christianity for 2,000 years, and the preservation of truth in Scripture are testimony to the efficacy and veracity of God’s word.
I understand there may be circumstances in the Third World where people who have never known the Bible, never been exposed to the Gospel, or have never considered there is anything other than their own small world in this universe, might need to have a new message confirmed through other than Christian testimony. But again, these are extremely rare instances.
There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that indicates tongues, prophecy, knowledge, or healings were for any purpose other than confirming the message of those spreading the Gospel. You cannot tell me that a bunch of Christians in Brownsville Assembly or Airport Vineyard in Toronto needed any kind of confirmation of a message from God. They had been exposed to the Gospel, they allegedly knew Jesus. Why in His holy name would they need to start babbling like fools or barking like dogs to “confirm” anything about Him?
This is the vast majority of how these “gifts” are manifested today. I don’t believe it is an exaggeration at all to say that all such manifestations in American and other developed-nation churches where the Gospel has been preached for centuries are abuses of the biblical understanding of the miraculous gifts,
The Holy Spirit today indwells the believer from the moment he/she believes. He seals us for the day of redemption. He certifies us as “in Christ.” He assures of our eternal security. He reveals truth. He helps us properly exegete and understand God’s word. He reveals to our spirits and mind the whole counsel of God regarding worship, doctrine, and Christian living.
The only reference we see in the Bible to the use of tongues in particular – but which I believe we can apply to all the miraculous signs – is their improper use, in the church at Corinth. No, Paul didn’t totally ban the use of those signs and wonders, but he said in the previously referenced thirteenth chapter that those signs and miracles would cease – and they have. The “perfect” has come – not Christ, as so many claim and as I refuted in a previous post, but the completion of God’s revelation of Himself through Scripture. That completion is grounded in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
John 14
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever ...[”]
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever ...[”]
He did not say “to lead you the manifestation of miraculous signs.” In fact, the concept of the word “helper” – parakletoß fact (parakletos) – is anything but ostentatious behavior, but a quiet leadership, the Third Person of God destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles after His ascension to the Father. His mission is to lead us to a deeper knowledge of the Gospel and give us divine strength needed to enable us to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom.
To make Him a circus pony doing tricks with language and animal imitation – or even the more subtle acts of misusing and abusing spiritual gifts that, in the vast majority of Christian opinion, are no longer valid or necessary except in the most rare and extreme circumstances, utterly fails to honor God, and in fact defames Him.
That’s my last word on this subject. Those who want to continue this practice, feel free. I don’t have to witness it. I’ve tried to warn, however, that it is disruptive, invalid, and unbiblical. But you do what you want.
And I really don’t care if you thing I only believe “part of the Bible.” I know better.
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No, I think I made it quite clear what I meant. It was what I said. Telling other Christians they do not believe in God because they don't see certain things the way you do is hateful. This whole mess started by VW stating that the church I attend "follows false gospels" because he doesn't feel comfortable with the way we relate to Jesus.
To me, you don't get much more damning than to accuse another Christian of following (teaching) a false gospel.... especially when you have no idea of their beliefs... and refuse to simply go online to read what they have placed there for the entire world to see... that they believe more firmly in ONLY Jesus being the way to Salvation than some others may.
To me, you don't get much more damning than to accuse another Christian of following (teaching) a false gospel.... especially when you have no idea of their beliefs... and refuse to simply go online to read what they have placed there for the entire world to see... that they believe more firmly in ONLY Jesus being the way to Salvation than some others may.
There is a problem with VineYard, it is not clear what they believe, they are especially vague about it.
We all love Jesus, but which Jesus are we talking about. It this the Jesus who went into Hell and was tortured by Satan, and became sin for us, was born again, and brought back from the dead, or is He part of the Trinity, God made man, the perfect example, who died to set us free from sin and death?
Now these are differences that actually matter, and change how you view spiritual life and experience.
But in the end it is not the church we buy into but our own personal view of God.
The challenge people where making was what you view of God was and to which mast do you pin your colours?
We all love Jesus, but which Jesus are we talking about. It this the Jesus who went into Hell and was tortured by Satan, and became sin for us, was born again, and brought back from the dead, or is He part of the Trinity, God made man, the perfect example, who died to set us free from sin and death?
Now these are differences that actually matter, and change how you view spiritual life and experience.
But in the end it is not the church we buy into but our own personal view of God.
The challenge people where making was what you view of God was and to which mast do you pin your colours?
Sooooooo, Jesus putting emphasis on Himself is a problem for you? If the world and our associations are more important to us than Jesus then we aren't worthy of Him.
The statement in Mark about handling snakes is not an imperative statement and probably has it's example in Acts 28:3-5 where Paul was gathering wood for the fire and a venomous snake bit him and he lived.
The statement in Mark about handling snakes is not an imperative statement and probably has it's example in Acts 28:3-5 where Paul was gathering wood for the fire and a venomous snake bit him and he lived.
I need one of you to help me out.
I have searched and searched for this "dog barking" video from Toronto. I can't find it.
I did find some foolishness posted by some place bragging that they were doing "it" better than Toronto.... I have no idea where that video came from. But, I really would like to see the one from Toronto. And I KNOW there has to be one, since everyone today has a cell phone.
I have searched and searched for this "dog barking" video from Toronto. I can't find it.
I did find some foolishness posted by some place bragging that they were doing "it" better than Toronto.... I have no idea where that video came from. But, I really would like to see the one from Toronto. And I KNOW there has to be one, since everyone today has a cell phone.
V
You continue to single me out, so I'll respond this one last time. You accuse me of not knowing what the Vineyard Movement teaches. You are wrong. I asked you questions earlier regarding the practices I know exist in many, perhaps most, Vineyard churches ...
... and this was your "best response"?
That isn't an answer. That's a deflection. Those questions represent a departure not from a "proper order of worship" but the very foundation of the Gospel. "Experience" means nothing without biblical foundation. "Signs and wonders" are not the "meat" of the Gospel, but sensationalism that never touches on the deeper aspects of God's truth. Not understanding the work of the Holy Spirit but insisting there are "no limits on His acting in unexpected ways" are the exact errors that touched the Corinthian church of Paul's day, and the utter garbage that afflicted Airport Vineyard and Brownsville Assembly.
You simply glossed over those questions by attempting to categorize them as "irrelevant" to the Gospel. The are, in reality, the "gospel" Vineyard and other charismatic churches preach, which is to say they don't give the grounding to their congregations necessary. That leads to out-of-control nonsense, not Christian teaching and fellowship.
I'm done here. If I've offended anyone, I apologize, but I do not apologize for my views on these practices.
... and this was your "best response"?
That isn't an answer. That's a deflection. Those questions represent a departure not from a "proper order of worship" but the very foundation of the Gospel. "Experience" means nothing without biblical foundation. "Signs and wonders" are not the "meat" of the Gospel, but sensationalism that never touches on the deeper aspects of God's truth. Not understanding the work of the Holy Spirit but insisting there are "no limits on His acting in unexpected ways" are the exact errors that touched the Corinthian church of Paul's day, and the utter garbage that afflicted Airport Vineyard and Brownsville Assembly.
You simply glossed over those questions by attempting to categorize them as "irrelevant" to the Gospel. The are, in reality, the "gospel" Vineyard and other charismatic churches preach, which is to say they don't give the grounding to their congregations necessary. That leads to out-of-control nonsense, not Christian teaching and fellowship.
I'm done here. If I've offended anyone, I apologize, but I do not apologize for my views on these practices.
Then, we are "authorized" to pick and choose which Scripture references we get to decide are "really" authoritative, and which ones we can say aren't? I think, by now, you should begin to see that, although all Scripture is inspired, not all of every word should be taken as authoritative "law" we have to follow to the letter.
I have an idea. A spirit comes upon me, I am transported to another place. I meet all kinds of experiences, people beings and then wake up at home. I am possessed and get evil spirits cast out of me and I keep seeing an angel who commands me to tell people they should believe in the super natural. How do I know this is of God at all?
If it says "Jesus is Lord" it is of God, if not, it is evil and deception.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:2-3
By this definition the later rain are the spirit of the antichrist, as they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
If it says "Jesus is Lord" it is of God, if not, it is evil and deception.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:2-3
By this definition the later rain are the spirit of the antichrist, as they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ came in the flesh.