When does the rapture occur?

[MarcR]

luke 17;
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

There is no way to transpose this on to postrib/postflood/postsodomdestroyed.
Absolutely no way

Popeye,

I am certain that the rapture must occur before the seventh seal is opened. Since a pre- trib rapture satisfies that expectation I consider it a possibility; but I think it will more likely follow the opening of the sixth seal.

I don't think that Mat 24 or Luk 17 are about the rapture in any way.

 

[PlainWord]

we both believe this.

Yeah, hallelujah, Praise the Lord.

 

[PlainWord]

Yep. he COMES FOR HIS BRIDE PRETRIB.

He comes after the GT WITH HIS BRIDE. See rev. 19

Oops, wheels just fell off.

 

[GaryA]

Popeye,

I am persuaded that the rapture must occur before the seventh seal is opened.

However, I believe that Mt 24:37-42
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
KJV

refers to the second coming and NOT the rapture. Verse 39 clearly indicates that those taken are taken to judgement and destruction.

I think this truth is consistent with both views.

Matthew 24:

[SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The focus of what is being said here is on this part, not this part.

This part is strictly for illustration of the flood event. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "who is taken and who is left" at the Second Coming of Christ.

Don't get hung up on the words...

The proper understanding of the meaning rests with the illustration of the concept that is being conveyed.

 

[VCO]

Let's see...:

~ He comes 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles and enters the earth's atmosphere

~ we go [ up ] one mile to meet Him


Did He come back?

NO! A Coming implies Touch Down. Would it have been a COMING BACK, if our Astronauts coming back from the Moon, ran out of fuel and drifted off into space, or had a malfunction in the engines after entering our atmosphere, that fired those engines, boosting them back out into space with no way to get back? NO, THERE HAS TO BE A TOUCH DOWN OR SPLASH DOWN FOR IT TO COUNT AS A COMING BACK.

Acts 26:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you


NOTICE: That is Acts Chapter 26, and JESUS said to PAUL, that he DID SEE HIM, and promised that HE would appear to PAUL a couple more times before Paul's death; probably when He was stoned by Jews and Jailed by Gentiles. THAT IS AT LEAST THREE APPEARINGS, and NONE of them counted as the Second Coming. Get over it, your THEORY, holds NO WATER.

The Calling Out of the Bride will be a similar APPEARING in the Sky, probably not even as CLOSE as Paul SAW HIM.

I think this artist captured the general idea rather well:

Not a COMING just an APPEARING, No Conqueror's White Horse, No Armies of Heaven, No Gathering of the Worlds Armies to make War against Him, etc., but wait seven years after what is pictured here, and all that will happen TOO.

 

[PlainWord]

Let's see...:

~ He comes 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles and enters the earth's atmosphere

~ we go [ up ] one mile to meet Him


Did He come back?

Not even sure we go UP at all. I see a gathering in Mat 24 but I don't see a rapture.. Not yet anyway.

 

[VCO]

LOL. You are putting the wrong passages together my friend. Do you want to know where your rapture belongs???? I'm dying to tell you. These passages describe the same event and it solves your BRIDE issue.

Rev 21:
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

1 Thes 4:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The Lord Himself in 1 Thes 4:16 is the same God Himself in Rev 21:3. You have the rapture some 1,000 years too early. The rapture and resurrection happen on the very LAST DAY and it involves all dead, including those who die during the millennium.

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

Matthew 25:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.

Matthew 24:44 (ESV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[PlainWord]

NO! A Coming implies Touch Down. Would it have been a COMING BACK, if our Astronauts coming back from the Moon, ran out of fuel and drifted off into space, or had a malfunction in the engines after entering our atmosphere, that fired those engines, boosting them back out into space with no way to get back? NO, THERE HAS TO BE A TOUCH DOWN OR SPLASH DOWN FOR IT TO COUNT AS A COMING BACK.

Acts 26:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you


NOTICE: That is Acts Chapter 26, and JESUS said to PAUL, that he DID SEE HIM, and promised that HE would appear to PAUL a couple more times before Paul's death; probably when He was stoned by Jews and Jailed by Gentiles. THAT IS AT LEAST THREE APPEARINGS, and NONE of them counted as the Second Coming. Get over it, your THEORY, holds NO WATER.

The Calling Out of the Bride will be a similar APPEARING in the Sky, probably not even as CLOSE as Paul SAW HIM.

I think this artist captured the general idea rather well:

Not a COMING just an APPEARING, No Conqueror's White Horse, No Armies of Heaven, No Gathering of the Worlds Armies to make War against Him, etc., but wait seven years after what is pictured here, and all that will happen TOO.

I guess those who are on earth will be out of luck because the wedding takes place in heaven.

I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! [SUP]2 [/SUP]For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!” [SUP]6 [/SUP]And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! [SUP]7 [/SUP]Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

 

[GaryA]

NO! A Coming implies Touch Down. Would it have been a COMING BACK, if our Astronauts coming back from the Moon, ran out of fuel and drifted off into space, or had a malfunction in the engines after entering our atmosphere, that fired those engines, boosting them back out into space with no way to get back? NO, THERE HAS TO BE A TOUCH DOWN OR SPLASH DOWN FOR IT TO COUNT AS A COMING BACK. { For this to be even a half-decent example for illustration, the Astronauts' ship would have to come back and hover a couple of miles above the splash-down site... }

Acts 26:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you


NOTICE: That is Acts Chapter 26, and JESUS said to PAUL, that he DID SEE HIM, and promised that HE would appear to PAUL a couple more times before Paul's death; probably when He was stoned by Jews and Jailed by Gentiles. THAT IS AT LEAST THREE APPEARINGS, and NONE of them counted as the Second Coming. Get over it, your THEORY, holds NO WATER.

The Calling Out of the Bride will be a similar APPEARING in the Sky, probably not even as CLOSE as Paul SAW HIM.

I think this artist captured the general idea rather well:

Not a COMING just an APPEARING, No Conqueror's White Horse, No Armies of Heaven, No Gathering of the Worlds Armies to make War against Him, etc., but wait seven years after what is pictured here, and all that will happen TOO.

"Thank you for helping to illustrate my point..."

The Second Coming of Christ is not based on physics ( 'feet touch the ground' ). It is based on the Plan of God. It is based on the fact that Jesus said that He would return - He would come a second time - in the particular fashion that He described.

This is why the appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus does not constitute a valid Second Coming of Christ.

The Second Coming of Christ is defined by the details Jesus gave concerning His return.

A coming ( 'Second Coming of Christ' ) implies "at the proper time - and in the proper fashion - according to the Plan of God"... ( and nothing else )

When a person understands that - according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return - according to the Plan of God - the moment He leaves His Father's throne to come back to [ anywhere even remotely close to ] the earth - it is the Second Coming of Christ. And it will be fulfilled according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return - including, setting up His [ physical ] Kingdom on the earth and reigning over it for 1000 years.

By definition - Jesus cannot 'appear' without 'coming' first.

The question and the answer are contained in the details Jesus gave concerning His return.

It would be very profitable to make a study of [ specifically ( only ) ] those things Jesus said about His return - as a starting point for gaining a greater understanding of the Second Coming of Christ. It is always better to build a foundation on those things Jesus said about something ( directly ) before trying to glean any deeper truth from the interpretation of parables, etc.

By the way -- the picture works for pre-, mid-, or post-trib.

 

[VCO]

Here is a passage from Rev 14, which is located after the return of Christ.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Oops, looks like there are living Christians on the earth who still die even after Christ returns.

Then there is Ezek 44 which also discusses dead and living during Christ's earthly reign. In fact, we still have marriage happening.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court. [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.

But wait you say, in the resurrection, there are to be no marriages because after the resurrection, we are to have bodies like the angels:

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

So how can this be? I know the answer. It's all about timing. You have to put the right passages with the right passages. You pre-tribbers mix them up and get them out of order. I'll explain...

You do know that Revelation was written in the writing style that journalists use today. Give them the highlights up front to catch their attention, then go back a fill in some of the details, then go back and fill in more details, and then back and fill in some more details, over and over again, until you have filled in all of the details. Using that writing style does NOT place the Chapters completely in chronological order. More details about His Second Coming are listed in Chapter 19, verses 11-21.

 

[GaryA]

By definition - Jesus cannot 'appear' without 'coming' first.

The question and the answer are contained in the details Jesus gave concerning His return.

What I meant by saying this was that -- every 'appearing' of Christ requires a 'coming'; however, the particular 'appearing' of Christ that constitutes the 'Second Coming of Christ' is the one that is according to the Plan of God - according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:

[SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The focus of what is being said here is on this part, not this part.

This part is strictly for illustration of the flood event. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "who is taken and who is left" at the Second Coming of Christ.

Don't get hung up on the words...

The proper understanding of the meaning rests with the illustration of the concept that is being conveyed.

However, this part does illustrate something about the Second Coming of Christ - Jesus coming as a thief...

( Which is part of the concept that is being conveyed... )

 

[flob]

MarcR believes that rapture happens before the 2nd Coming.
But that Mt 24:37-42 does not include rapture.

Contrary to this, Mt 24:42, Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes,
is a warning to Christians, not to those taken away to judgment and destruction. Since it says
'your Lord comes.' Unless...........is MarcR saying that those taken away to judgment and destruction
are Christians? If so, what judgment and destruction are they taken away to? Or by? 'The word 'therefore'
in 42 means 42 directly explains 40-41, At that time two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is
left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. 40-41 are about children of God.
All four individuals. Since 42 says 'your Lord comes.' This is not a warning to nonbelievers. Furthermore,
'At that time' in 40 serves to distinguish the story of the 4 believers from the setting they are in, which is
37-39, For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as they were in those
days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered
into the ark, and they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will
the coming of the Son of Man be. There is the setting. 'At that time' distinguishes those whom the Lord is addressing,
His servants, from the nonbelievers destroyed by the flood. To escape the Great Tribulation by rapture (see also Lk 21:36; Rv 3:10), believers must 'be ready,' For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. Mt 24:44.

 

[VCO]

Not even sure we go UP at all. I see a gathering in Mat 24 but I don't see a rapture.. Not yet anyway.

I repeat, YOU MISS A LOT OF DEPTH OF MEANING when you choose to IGNORE studying Jewish Wedding Customs. The the new dwelling place built for the wedding ceremony and consummation is ALWAYS built in or near the Bridegroom's Father's house.

John 14:2-3 (RSV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.


http://www.cclihue.com/Jewish%20Marriage%20Chart.pdf

 

[VCO]

However, this part does illustrate something about the Second Coming of Christ - Jesus coming as a thief...

( Which is part of the concept that is being conveyed... )

The Bridegroom in a Jewish Wedding always comes at a time that surprises his Bride, to steal her away to the New Dwelling Place, like a thief in the night.

 

[VCO]

What I meant by saying this was that -- every 'appearing' of Christ requires a 'coming'; however, the particular 'appearing' of Christ that constitutes the 'Second Coming of Christ' is the one that is according to the Plan of God - according to the details Jesus gave concerning His return.

AND HE appeared to Paul three times after that to Paul according to the Scriptures, so you are WRONG, an Appearing does not count as a Coming. He also Appeared to Steven as He was being Martyred, and since the LORD does not change, He probably appeared to the other Disciples as they were Martyred. The ONLY one that has to be close enough for us to hear is the Archangel as he shouts to call us out of our old dwelling place Earth. The one chosen to shout, always went ahead of the Bridegroom, not beside him, nor behind him.

If you had studied the Jewish Wedding Customs, you would have know that, and we would not be having this debate.

 

[Pumicestone]

Be prepared for judgement. Those who are foolish will not enter paradise.

Address the word and the op.

get off the personal level.

This is not a teenage chat room

Gee, that sounds a bit like a 'personal' snipe to me, Popeye ?

 

[popeye]

Gee, that sounds a bit like a 'personal' snipe to me, Popeye ?

I am willing to be corrected and challenged on ANY post I make.

What I am seeing is pple that PARK and stay on the personal level.

Example ;
"most postribs erroneously believe........"
VS
"you whitewashed tomb"

Now since you have decided to police me,could you also find the "You Poeye,are a whitewashed tomb" post??

Being as how you are so "concerned" about the truth,and exposing our hearts?

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Pumicestone

You are a real charmer, Josh.

The epitome of Christian love, charity and tolerance.

Originally Posted by popeye

..... Your position is error by omission

I think what Popeye means is
"In my opinion, your postition is error by omission".
Unless that spinach diet also imparts infallibility ?

You waste pple's time.
Tell you what. You and I put each other on ignore.

 

[Pumicestone]

By all means, you do that if you wish, Popeye.
I will not do so. It just seems so wimpy.

BTW, I have no idea what "postribs" and "whitewashed tombs" are, mate !
Just thought your response to SilverFang was a tad aggressive - and unnecessary.
But, whatever floats your Christian boat.