When does the rapture occur?

PlainWord · Jun 1, 2015

Study Rev 13. I have showed this many times on this thread. The location of the BEAST of the SEA is given in Rev 13:2. If you go to DAN 7 you will see that the same lion, leopard, bear kings that John uses are there. Bible scholars are in pretty much universal agreement as to what nations were represented by Daniel's 4 beasts. The fourth beast was Rome and the first three were Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece. John is telling us that the Beast of the SEA comes from those 3 ancient Beasts.

The imagery of the Harlot is very clear. Harlotry = Idolatry. This is only one false religion that could be said to be the MOTHER of them and that is Islam. The 4th seal is Islam. Islam is over 1/4 of the world. If you read the OT prophets and understand which countries are Gog and Magog, they are predominately Muslim. If you read Jer 50-51 you will see that Daughter Babylon is Saudi Arabia.

We are told that understanding these things take wisdom. I am giving you the answers and the clues. Its up to you to see. If you can't see, don't feel bad as many cannot see.

PlainWord · Jun 1, 2015

Pumicestone said:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

The above was mis-tranliterated. The Greek 600, 60 and 6 were not the characters John wrote. He wrote what he saw and he saw a vision of 21st century Islamic Jihadists 400+ years before Islam even existed as a religion. He saw these Jihadist wearing head bands and wrist bands with the Bismillah symbol (In the name of Allah) followed by the cross and swords. Look at the similarities:

Look at what the Jihadist wears?

If the translators of 1611 had our prospective, they very easily could have translated Rev 13:18 this way:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding reckon the multitude (peoples/nations) of the beast, for it is the multitude of a man (Muhammad) and His multitude wages holy war "in the name of Allah."

If the verse was transliterated this way, would you be able to see it? That's why wisdom was needed. Wisdom that wasn't available until now. Remember in the latter times, knowledge will increase?

PlainWord · Jun 1, 2015

Daniel 12:4

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

What does Revelation say about this?

Rev 22:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

You see in Daniel's time the words were too be sealed. But once Christ came and died, Satan was defeated. Satan was not eliminated yet but he lost the key battle of the war with God when Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Since Christ, we have been in the last days, even though it has been 2,000 years.

I am running to and fro trying to warn people. Everything points to Islam and I mean everything. They will go on a global killing spree and if you are a true Christian, watch out!!

A "mountain" is a spiritual stronghold. What does the Bible say about Islam?

Jer 51:

[SUP]all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed multitude who dwell in the desert;[/SUP]

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, ISLAM
Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord.
“And I will stretch out My hand against you,
Roll you down from the rocks,
And make you a burnt mountain.
[SUP]
33 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:

“The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor
When it is time to thresh her;
Yet a little while
And the time of her harvest will come.”

What harvest? This one!!!

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” [SUP]19 [/SUP]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

VCO · Jun 1, 2015

flob said:

You do know that the type of slave He is talking about is in reality a bond-servant; a respectable profession at the time of Christ. Signing to be a willing slave (bond-servant) to a rich man at the time of Christ, could provide you with a respectable position that gave you a much higher standard of living than normal wages could provide. Sure your pay was your room and board and food. But, the food was better, the housing was better, and the clothes were better.

As for the Commentaries that you thought lacked details, I ONLY GIVE YOU EXCERPTS, out of what would take several posts to post here. MacArthur especially can get very long winded on a subject; and so can the Faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary.

VCO · Jun 1, 2015

Pumicestone said:

Did you read the rules to be allowed to continue posting here?

Of course you didn't!

Sooner or later, you will go Bye, Bye.

Pumicestone · Jun 1, 2015

VCO said:

Actually, I did, VCO.
And I try very hard to comply with them because I enjoy my time here and have even learned many things.

Whilst clearly my present beliefs (they change constantly) differ from most here, I respect the views of others and seek always to be polite and courteous.
Occasionally, I have no doubt my attempt at Aussie wit or my choice of words will be misinterpreted - which I regret.

I suppose it is also true that there are some here who may perceive any view which differs from their own as unwelcome.
And that is unfortunate because, by exchanging our thoughts and beliefs, I hope we may all grow.
It is not my intention to try to dissuade anyone from their faith - even if I could.

I greatly admire much of what Y'shua is reported to have said.

" You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
" whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

and of course 'the Good Samaritan'
" Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him.
Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."

GaryA · Jun 1, 2015

PlainWord said:

You don't know that !!

PlainWord said:

At best - it may be that it is intended for us to "put this together" and understand its meaning; however, ...

Revelation 13:

[SUP]18[/SUP] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Somehow, I don't think all of this "just slipped through the cracks" when it was being interpreted...

GaryA · Jun 1, 2015

VCO said:

"I sincerely believe that you have 100% completely missed my point entirely..."

Oh - and, by the way...

Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [SUP]17[/SUP] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [SUP]18[/SUP] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [SUP]19[/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [SUP]20[/SUP] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21[/SUP] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is describing a post-trib scenario...

GaryA · Jun 1, 2015

flob said:

Why do you think that the Revelation 12 scenario of necessity takes place during the last 3.5 years?

PlainWord · Jun 1, 2015

GaryA said:

You are right Gary, I do not know 100% for sure, but everything else is adding up and pointing to Islam, and I mean everything. The Greek word which was translated "NUMBER" can also mean "MULTITUDE" please look it up. The 600, 60 and 6 are nearly identical symbols of the Arabic "In the name of Allah" followed by crossed swords (right to left).

VCO · Jun 2, 2015

Pumicestone said:

Check out the first two rules, and you should be able to understand why I said what I said. Apparently you do not know that the moderators actively ban those who violate the rules. No, I am not a moderator.

1. Nothing anti-Christian, or inappropriate for a Christian chat room or forum.

2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.

Have there been evil rulers that claim they are Christians, when in reality they only know about Jesus, like the demons do; and NEVER have had a real, intimate, personal relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD? OF COURSE THERE HAS! We were warned about them in the BIBLE. There has ALWAYS been phonies in our Churches. Why do we put up with them being there? Because Our LORD is in the business of turning some of the phonies into GENUINE CHRISTIANS through the preaching of HIS WORD.

Matthew 24:24-27 (HCSB)
24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Take note: I have told you in advance.
26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 7:15-23 (HCSB)
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

2 Timothy 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5 But as for you, be serious about everything, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
2 through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared.

So we definitely know the phonies are among those who call themselves Christians; and we know that by their fruit (lifestyle characteristics) we will know who they are.

But did you know that the BIBLE told us there would be people like you whose beliefs (they change constantly)? Now do you know we have two Expressions that describe what you need to do to stop that merry-go-round? They are "You need to get GROUNDED in the Word of GOD, through daily Bible Study." And the other is: "You need to confess to GOD that you are a sinner and received Jesus Christ willingly as LORD out of LOVE for HIM." That term receiving Him as LORD, in realty implies a willing surrender to HIM as Master, because you love Him. Before you even try, you need to know that you CANNOT DO EITHER OF THEM through your own strength or mental capacities; you need to cry out to HIM for HELP in doing them. That inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST as LORD, is VERY REAL. HE and HIS LOVE are with me every single day since I surrendered to HIM.

Ephesians 4:14 (HCSB)
14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.

flob · Jun 2, 2015

Thank you for asking.
Daniel 9:24-27 addresses the last 7 years of this age, the age after Christ has been crucified, 26.
'And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week [one seven]; and in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the meal offering to cease and will replace the sacrifice and the meal offering with abominations of the desolator [himself], even until the complete destruction that has been determined is poured out upon the desolator' 27.
'Seventy weeks [sevens] are apportioned for [Daniel's] people and for your holy city [Jerusalem], to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make propitiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies' 24.
The desolator begins his desolation at the start of the last 3 1/2 years of this age, 'in the middle of the week,' 27.

This corresponds with the 'time, times, and half a time [1+2+1/2=3 1/2]' and '1260 days [=3 1/2 years]' in Rv 12:6, 14
when the woman [the people of God left behind, 12:5] are nourished in the wilderness from the face of the serpent [Satan] who 'brings forth' the Antichrist in resuscitation from assassination to war against the Christians and Jews within his immediate grasp and to overcome them, 12:17--13:10.

'When you [Israelis] see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who reads understand), then let those in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not come down to take the things out of his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his garment. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days. And pray that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a Sabbath, for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur. And unless those days had been cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen, those days will be cut short' Mt 24:15-22.

popeye · Jun 2, 2015

The last things will not be understood without seeing through the "first things" prism.

Jn 2;
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew

the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

VCO · Jun 2, 2015

PlainWord said:

I have to admit that what you presented is interesting and a possibility; however Explain how one of the rulers of ISIS will EVER be able to GET ISAEL to sign a Peace Treaty? That is why I think it HAS to be someone with EQUAL influence over the ISRAEL and the ISLAMICS, including the radicals.

Daniel 9:26-27 (NLT)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

I know there are a lot of people that claim that this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.; but that is not what I am reading. I too am not fond of the modern street language Translations. But in this case it helps to see a meaning to words that are not as obvious in the older English Translations. The Word Covenant in Daniel's time, was also used describe Peace Treaties. Yes the Second Temple was Destroyed in 70 A.D., but that ROMAN EMPIRE SEIGE, did not end with a Seven Year Peace Treaty. Clearly in the last sentence, it points out that this prophecy does not span only 70 years and then ENDS. It continues until the "VERY END" of man's rule over this Earth. In Dan. Chapter 2, Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, and that Statue had Iron Legs which clearly represented the ROMAN EMPIRE of 70 A.D. HOWEVER, neither the Statue, nor the prophecy ends there. It has feet with ten toes (a ten nation confederacy), but the make up is not pure IRON, it is Iron mixed with Clay; making it weaker than the original Roman Empire. Is that NOT what we now have in the European Union, the many Kings {toes} or Rulers trying to rule over pretty much the SAME territory as the Original Roman Empire. Sure we have more than ten now, but I suspect that when it starts to become more of a Dictatorship than equal Rule, all but ten will pull out.

NOTICE also it Says: " The end will come with a flood,". Could it be that this is the FLOOD that this Prophecy is talking about?

Revelation 12:15 (ISV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From its mouth the serpent poured water like a river behind the woman in order to sweep her away with the flood.

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2015

VCO said:

I have to admit that what you presented is interesting and a possibility; however Explain how one of the rulers of ISIS will EVER be able to GET ISAEL to sign a Peace Treaty? That is why I think it HAS to be someone with EQUAL influence over the ISRAEL and the ISLAMICS, including the radicals.

Daniel 9:26-27 (NLT)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

I know there are a lot of people that claim that this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.; but that is not what I am reading. I too am not fond of the modern street language Translations. But in this case it helps to see a meaning to words that are not as obvious in the older English Translations. The Word Covenant in Daniel's time, was also used describe Peace Treaties. Yes the Second Temple was Destroyed in 70 A.D., but that ROMAN EMPIRE SEIGE, did not end with a Seven Year Peace Treaty. Clearly in the last sentence, it points out that this prophecy does not span only 70 years and then ENDS. It continues until the "VERY END" of man's rule over this Earth. In Dan. Chapter 2, Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, and that Statue had Iron Legs which clearly represented the ROMAN EMPIRE of 70 A.D. HOWEVER, neither the Statue, nor the prophecy ends there. It has feet with ten toes (a ten nation confederacy), but the make up is not pure IRON, it is Iron mixed with Clay; making it weaker than the original Roman Empire. Is that NOT what we now have in the European Union, the many Kings {toes} or Rulers trying to rule over pretty much the SAME territory as the Original Roman Empire. Sure we have more than ten now, but I suspect that when it starts to become more of a Dictatorship than equal Rule, all but ten will pull out.

NOTICE also it Says: " The end will come with a flood,". Could it be that this is the FLOOD that this Prophecy is talking about?

Revelation 12:15 (ISV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From its mouth the serpent poured water like a river behind the woman in order to sweep her away with the flood.

The Beast of the Sea is not fully developed yet. I am expecting Turkey to join in and stop being the ally of the USA. Their president is a very strange bird. More on this tomorrow. I'm checking out for tonight.

Isaacsname · Jun 2, 2015

Wow, you guys are on it!

VCO · Jun 2, 2015

PlainWord said:

Not really, I was Stationed there in the Air Force, joined a Turkish Hunting Club, and went Duck Hunting and Partridge Hunting with them. They were very friendly and PRO USA. In Fact they thought JFK was the equal to Ataturk. The only confirmed Islamic Terrorist went down with one bullet from one of our Turkish perimeter guards. Turks have been in an on again and off again war with the KURDS for several decades, that is the only reason that they hesitate jumping into the fight. They would rather the Kurds loose first and then jump in. I was stationed near the Black Sea, and in that part of Turkey the Turks were all very friendly to us.

Turkey helped us out BIG TIME in Korea too.

Here are some pictures the fact that Turkey and the US have had a strong relationship for many decades:

[video=youtube;7RfCGap0Pic]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RfCGap0Pic[/video]

But you are not only one who thinks the US/Turkey relationship has been stretched thin during the Obama Years. Turkey's U.S. relations show strain as Washington's patience wears thin | Reuters

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2015

VCO,

Things have changed a lot since you were stationed in Turkey, I can assure you. The people may still be mostly pro western but not the leadership and there has been growing anti-west sentiment in recent years. There have been more and more anti USA protests and our service men have been spit at and threatened in a few instances.

I have been keeping my eye on Turkish President, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. He has made some wild statements of hatred and distrust against the US since taking office last year. He has been considered lawless and has spent a fortune building his presidential palace. He has done some crazy things such as he actually took to a soccer field, suited up and scored 3 goals down the stretch to help his team win at age 60-61. It was called a stunt. I'm just saying the close friend we once enjoyed isn't so close anymore. As you know, things can turn on a dime in the middle east. I spent some time in Bahrain, Jordan, Israel and UAE but that was wow, nearly 30 years ago.

GaryA · Jun 2, 2015

flob said:

Thank you for asking.
Daniel 9:24-27 addresses the last 7 years of this age, the age after Christ has been crucified, 26.
'And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week [one seven]; and in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the meal offering to cease and will replace the sacrifice and the meal offering with abominations of the desolator [himself], even until the complete destruction that has been determined is poured out upon the desolator' 27.
'Seventy weeks [sevens] are apportioned for [Daniel's] people and for your holy city [Jerusalem], to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make propitiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies' 24.
The desolator begins his desolation at the start of the last 3 1/2 years of this age, 'in the middle of the week,' 27.

This corresponds with the 'time, times, and half a time [1+2+1/2=3 1/2]' and '1260 days [=3 1/2 years]' in Rv 12:6, 14
when the woman [the people of God left behind, 12:5] are nourished in the wilderness from the face of the serpent [Satan] who 'brings forth' the Antichrist in resuscitation from assassination to war against the Christians and Jews within his immediate grasp and to overcome them, 12:17--13:10.

'When you [Israelis] see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who reads understand), then let those in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not come down to take the things out of his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his garment. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days. And pray that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a Sabbath, for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur. And unless those days had been cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen, those days will be cut short' Mt 24:15-22.

Daniel's 70 weeks were 100% fulfilled in a single unbroken span of 490 years. The 70th week ended about the time Stephen was stoned. Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

Please read these posts:

Daniel 9 aside
there is no prince in verse 27
Daniel 9 27 not the same as the other two
70 weeks
accomplished during the 70 weeks
chronological order of fulfillment
THE covenant
The 70th week of Daniel is history.

PlainWord · Jun 2, 2015

VCO said:

Dan 9:26-27 is one of the most controversial and contentious passages of prophesy in the whole Bible. I am not going to suggest that I have it sorted out but let's face it, 69 of 70 weeks clearly dealt with the past, the rebuilding of the second temple and Christ. Then we have the mysterious 70th week. Some see a 2,000 +/- year gap with the "AntiChrist" making a treaty with Israel in the middle of the week (7 years), some don't. Many see the covenant as the one made with Christ, others see it as a future peace treaty with Israel whereby Israel is deceived and immediately attacked. The point is, this passage in Daniel is full of speculation and we shouldn't try to derive too much from it unless and until it starts making sense. I am more interested in Dan 7, 8, 11 and 12.

Regardless, Israel has made many peace treaties with Arab countries. Who else is there for them to make peace with? They are surrounded by only Arab nations. I believe they have done 6 major treaties involving Arab nations/leaders to date. So, for Israel to sign another peace treaty with an Arab AntiChrist would not only be normal, it would sorta be expected, would it not? After all, who has been at war with Israel if not Arab nations?

I do not think the AntiChrist (Man of Sin) is ISIS or will come from the same area as ISIS. Daniel 11 discusses warring kings from the North and South. I believe these kings are Muslim and they are from the North and South of Israel. I think either Saudi Arabia or Egypt are strong candidates to be the one(s) from the South and both are prominently mentioned in prophesy. The North could be Turkey, could be Russia, could be in an alliance with ISIS, could be Iran. Lots of candidates to watch.

Rev 13 discusses the BEAST from the Sea and the BEAST from the EARTH. The BEAST from the EARTH comes about 42 months after the BEAST from the SEA. I am not one to make predictions with specific dates as everyone who has has been wrong. But I do think it's fun to see if dates fit then watch to see if it happens. What are we told about the BEAST of the SEA? It is given a mouth (speaker/leader) who blasphemes for 42 months. 42 x 30 = 1260 days. ISIS announced it's caliphate on June 28, 2014. At the time ISIS told the Arab world to either get on board with them or be killed - sound familiar? They have been killing anyone opposed to them since.

So, what date is 42 months from June 28, 2014? Try December 9, 2017. Guess what day this is? It is a Saturday AKA Sabbath and it's during the Winter (close to it).

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I am watching to see if Dec 9, 2017 could be the start of the Great Tribulation, the date the Abomination of Desolation is set up in a Holy Place, the day the Man of Sin appears attempting to deceive Jews and/or Christians into thinking he is God. It is interesting to me that the Lord gave these two clues. Is it because it is difficult to travel on a Saturday in Israel? Do they get lot of snow in the winter? NO, of course not. So why the warning?

It's all about the HARVEST. You do not harvest out of season and you certainly don't harvest on the Sabbath. Therefore if a "god" comes on the Sabbath, do not believe it. If a "god" tries to harvest out of season, do not believe it. When Christ comes, it will be very likely in September during the Feast of Trumpets. That would be my best guess and it's only a guess. But I would not expect Christ ever to come on the Sabbath.

The Muslims are awaiting the return of someone too. I agree, the figure that comes will be intriguing to a lot of different peoples/faiths. The miracles performed will be compelling to many. Those of us who are watchers will sound the alarm but (and I say this with love) many will think he is the Christ because many think Christ comes first. This one fact alone will deceive a lot of believers, especially those who do not know very much about prophesy and the things to look for.

I think my friends on here like you VCO, will immediately recognize the Man of Sin as not being Jesus. At this point you will be forced to reconsider your rapture timing so I don't see you as being deceived because you have been paying attention and watching.

When does the rapture occur?

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