When does the rapture occur?

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

Hey VCO, my good and dear friend. I hope you know I really do consider you a friend?

I made my case. Please feel free to think of and wait for the A/C (Man of Sin) to make a treaty with Israel, then go back on it, then go on a killing spree if you want to. You might want to take notice that John doesn't breathe a word of this in Revelation. But, what does John know??? He was only taken to heaven and shown everything important that was to take place.

I'm not going to grace the above comment with a response. Look at this passage please:

Daniel 12:4

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

What does the above passage mean to you? Does it mean everything you've been taught your whole life stays the same? If so, you are missing out on the new knowledge because you are set in a 60 year lie. Do you feel like your knowledge is increasing????

I actually use the NKJV. I find the KJV a little too stale and at times difficult to read. I'm just a simple man with an average IQ

. Be wary of translations written by non believers. They may be expert in Greek and Hebrew but not expert in the ways of God and discernment.

The opinion of a man. The world is full of such things... History is loaded with experts who got it wrong.

Exactly, that is when the Messiah was cut off. Half way into the 70th week.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
...
And to anoint the Most Holy.

70, not 69.

Did you just cite this

. We are in violent agreement.

Hint: there is no temple.

Such a principle is false. John teaches that it will not be Rome that is revived, rather it will be the Lion, Leopard, Bear that will be revived. Turn to Rev 13:2 and read for yourself. Then go consult your experts and ask if Rome was one of them. John gives the location of where the Beast of the Sea will come. It ain't from Rome.

We shall see. Give it about 2.5 years

flob · Jun 5, 2015

Amen. Obviously. EVERYBODY during the Millenium is (not a believer------but) a knower, lol. Christ is visible. Christ is manifest. All the nations know He is King then.....because..........He IS King

Good point. 1 Cor 15:50.
Add this to the list of mysteries I seek to know.
Because I understood that Israel which is rescued and born-anew at Armageddon, nevertheless are not transfigured then,
and probably not until the end of the Millenium (because that is then New Jerusalem).
I must reconsider, and, thinking aloud:
Is 'kingdom (of God, Christ, etc)' mostly used in a future sense in the New Testament (eg Eph 5:5)?
Because His church is His (non-political) kingdom, Col 1:13; Rm 14:17; Rv 1:6; Heb 12:28; Lk 17:20; 18:16.
Now.
And we believers, believers who are members of His church kingdom, are 'flesh and blood.'
Then the key word in 1 Cor 15:50 would be 'inherit.' Meaning: His future kingdom.

I understand that the unregenerate sheep-nations of Mt 25 'inherit the kingdom prepared for [them] from the foundation of the world.' They are not born of God. All the more, they are not transfigured. 'They' will be neither, even in the new heavens and new earth, Rv 21:3-4, 24, 26; 22:2, for eternity.

Israel, saved at the very end, Zech 11--14; Rm 11:26; Isa 59:20-21; Dan 9:24-27; cf 7:1-8, enter the 1000-year kingdom of the Son of Man........as priests. Not kings and priests. Like the overcomers did.

I am open to learning--- O Lord! Teach me!---My current thought is that the future 'kingdom of God' in 1 Cor 15:50 (and elsewhere in the NT for the saints who overcome, Rv 2:26-27; Lk 19:17-19) refers to the kingship of believers.

VCO · Jun 5, 2015

PlainWord said:

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

TMS · Jun 5, 2015

In reply to the 70 weeks is it a continual 70 weeks or do you have 69 1/2 weeks with half a week at the end of time?

VCO · Jun 5, 2015

PlainWord said:

I am certainly glad you think of me as a Friend. That is a two way street. That is why I tried so hard to reach you with the TRUTH. You and I have the same opinion on the KJV. Do Not be so Hasty to trash can new Translations though. In do so, you imply that GOD is not Holy Enough and Powerful Enough to keep His Word Pure and True through Modern Translators. I actually haver 12 Translation open when I do my Bible research and Studies.

As for the TEMPLE, all of Third TEMPLE Artifact HAVE BEEN MADE, the Levitte Priests have been Trained, the blueprints are already drawn, and some of the Building Materials have been stockpiled. The Jews have EVERY INTENTION of building the THIRD TEMPLE. They are waiting for GOD to make a way for it to be possible. Only the ANTICHRIST will come along and deceive them into signing a peace treaty allowing it, and they will think it was GOD, who did it. Come to think about it, Satan does have to get permission from GOD to do what he does, like he did with JOB.

As for the Nations involved in attacking Israel just before the Second Coming there will be a lot of them, I sure hope an pray you have a very good idea about how to teach people who turn to the LORD during the Tribulation, what all they have to do to endure it all, knowing they will be beheaded. I will not be here to help you, as all of those who believe as I do, will certainly be at the Wedding of the Lamb.

I did a fun short Bible Study today, and a thorough internet search that you may find thought provoking.

WHO IS THE ARMY IN BLUE, in Bible Prophecy?

Ezekiel 23:6 (NRSV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, mounted horsemen.

Take a look at this, the U.S. Army is phasing out the the Green Dress Uniforms, and guess what color the new ones are:

And look at the new Chinese Uniforms:

And the European Union Army Uniforms:

And United Nations Forces:

And NATO Forces:

And the Britts:

And the French:

And the Germans:

And the Macedonian Army:

And the Greek Army:

And the Swiss:

And the Turkish Army:

And the U.S. Navy:

And Iranian Military Dress Uniforms:

And the Serbian Army:

And the Ukrainian Army:

NOW, look at this Russian Military Dress Uniform on the right:

Revelation 9:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

Perhaps Tank Commanders, are who are pictured in that VERSE.

More Russian Uniforms:

So when and why did SO MANY of today's Military's switch to the Color Blue, especially their Dress Uniforms.

Zechariah 14:12-13 (GW)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] This will be the plague the LORD will use to strike all the people from the nations that have gone to war against Jerusalem. Their flesh will rot while they are standing on their feet. Their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] On that day a large-scale panic from the LORD will spread among them. One person will grab the hand of another, and one will attack the other.

Revelation 19:19-21 (YLT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.

Revelation 14:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So the angel swung his sickle toward earth and gathered the grapes from earth’s vineyard, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses’ bridles for about 180 miles.

So what does it all mean?

Until the LORD comes back as the Conquering KING of Kings, somebody is making a fortune manufacturing BLUE dye.

TMS · Jun 5, 2015

VCO said:

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
What matter? What vision? It must be the one in Chap 8. Read it in context. Daniel only knew the laws that involved the sanctuary, the daily sacrifices and high priests.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
God gave them 70 weeks to get their act together and anoint Jesus. They were on probation.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Look at history. The command = This must be the starting point, In the 7th year of the reign of Artaxerxes a decree was given = 457B.C. (Ezra 6:14,7:11-25)
7 + 62 = 69 weeks to build the walls and streets, (the temple etc.) and the messiah will come. This must be Jesus.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Which covenant did Jesus confirmed for a week (a whole week)? The covenant given to Israel is the same today but the earthly sacrifices and rituals have ceased. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the laws (he became the lamb and the high priest, etc.)
Instead of taking a lamb into the Earthly sanctuary Jesus goes into the Heavenly Sanctuary for us by faith.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The pattern of which sanctuary?
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary so the earthly one became useless.
When Christ died the time given to the Jews was not up they still had 3 and a half years to believe the Gospel (mercy) but they keep persecuting the Christians and their probation did close.
Rom 11:15-23 For if the casting away of them (Jews) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ... Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. ....continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Stop looking at the Earthly Jerulalem and the Earthly Jews because their time has ended, Finished, past. The 70 weeks are past.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

VCO said:

Will you scoff when you see the Man of Sin and you are still here????

flob · Jun 5, 2015

Lol. Zech 11--14 has yet to happen. Dan 924-27's last week has yet to begin. Hardness has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in; and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is the covenant from Me with them, when I take away their sins'...For the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

I am fully aware that many Jews want a third temple and that the Temple Institute is ready to go. It may happen, it may not. My point is, it does not need to happen to fulfill any remaining prophesy. I find no references in the New Testament to a third physical earthly temple.

As for you not being here during the Tribulation, that depends. Will you go out and be deceived when they tell you Christ is here or will you remember our chats and listen to Christ's warnings and stay inside?

The NKJV has it as purple. The context is Samaria from the distant past. You know, most OT prophesy has been fulfilled, about 95%. Not everything is future:

And she lusted for her lovers, the neighboring Assyrians,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who were clothed in purple,
Captains and rulers,
All of them desirable young men,
Horsemen riding on horses.

I like the new blue colors but the above is clearly talking about the Assyrians being in purple (your blue). You are able to go back one line and pick up the subject matter of who is in purple (blue), aren't you??? Samaria played harlot with Assyria.

However, if you want to find the USA in future prophesy, there is one place we are mentioned.

Isaiah 18:2

Which sends ambassadors by sea, Even in vessels of reed on the waters, saying, “Go, swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth of skin, To a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide.”

Isaiah 18:7

In that time a present will be brought to the Lord of hosts From a people tall and smooth of skin, And from a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide— To the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, To Mount Zion.

bowharp · Jun 5, 2015

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
(Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

If you did know when the rapture takes place. What would you do with this piece of information?

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

bowharp said:

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasting destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 2Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclature is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt & lib) occurring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib),"
means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation from decay (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain didactics of the NT Word of God specifically locate the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any prophetic riddle, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

If you did know when the rapture takes place. What would you do with this piece of information

I do know. . .the certain teaching of the NT is that it is at the end of time (see the summary in blue, above). . .and I would continue doing what I am doing now.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

TMS said:

No, you have 69.5 weeks until Christ is cut off. The remaining 0.5 week takes place when Rome surrounds the sanctuary fortress until they breach it, destroy the temple, the city and scatter the people for 1,875 years.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city...

The text says nothing about a 1,875 year break, return to the Land, rebuilding the city (A SECOND TIME) and temple yet again, having the A/C come in and defile the temple and having it destroyed a second time. The text is clear. Seventy Weeks (490 years) were determined for Daniel's people and Holy City - Jerusalem.

How many weeks again? 70.
What year did Jerusalem fall? 70.

All of the below on the list were done within the 70 week, 490 year period.

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Daniel was told 3 times to "SEAL UP (PROPHESY)"

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future.”

Daniel 12:4
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Daniel 12:9

And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The Virgin Birth, Life of Christ, His ministry, His betrayal, His death, His resurrection, and His ascension were the BIGGEST events the world has or ever will see again. This period of time in history from about 3 BC to 33 AD fulfilled more prophesy than any other period of time in the history of the world. This event was the decisive battle in the history of heaven and earth. Let that sink in for a moment.... It was this battle between Satan and God that forever and irrevocably defeated Satan!! Compare it to D Day. Once the Allies landed and established a foothold on those beaches in France, Hitler had lost the war. Was the war over? No, but the war was lost. The Battle of Berlin was a mop up job and a foregone conclusion with no doubt about how it would end. The same will be for Armageddon. The outcome is not in doubt. It will be like the New England Patriots playing a peewee football team.

Daniel's visions were sealed, meaning not understood until Christ came and did all he would do. Christ was then revealed and John wrote about how Christ Himself removed the seals, and John was told to Not seal up his book:

Revelation 22:10

And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

You see, the important battle, the spiritual one is over. All believers have VICTORY which we got at the Cross. We have already won!! When we die, we go to heaven. We have eternal life!! We have already won the war!!

Revelation 12:10-11

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

We have already defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb. We already have Salvation. We already have inherited the Kingdom of God (for it does not come with observation), we already have the power of Christ within us. I think too many people do not understand this mystery because their minds are locked in the physical world.

Christ returning and finally ridding the world of Satan is icing on the cake. It's the anticlimactic battle to take place on earth as the War in Heaven has already been fought and won. If you don't want to be a fighter and stick around for the final phase, go ahead and turn tail and run. For those who think God is teaching is people to avoid the fight with Satan then you have a very different view of our God than I have. I'll see you on the flip side

.

PRAISE THE LORD, VICTORY IS OURS.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation from decay (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Elin has nailed it.

.

VCO · Jun 5, 2015

TMS said:

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
What matter? What vision? It must be the one in Chap 8. Read it in context. Daniel only knew the laws that involved the sanctuary, the daily sacrifices and high priests.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
God gave them 70 weeks to get their act together and anoint Jesus. They were on probation.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Look at history. The command = This must be the starting point, In the 7th year of the reign of Artaxerxes a decree was given = 457B.C. (Ezra 6:14,7:11-25)
7 + 62 = 69 weeks to build the walls and streets, (the temple etc.) and the messiah will come. This must be Jesus.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Which covenant did Jesus confirmed for a week (a whole week)? The covenant given to Israel is the same today but the earthly sacrifices and rituals have ceased. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the laws (he became the lamb and the high priest, etc.)
Instead of taking a lamb into the Earthly sanctuary Jesus goes into the Heavenly Sanctuary for us by faith.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The pattern of which sanctuary?
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary so the earthly one became useless.
When Christ died the time given to the Jews was not up they still had 3 and a half years to believe the Gospel (mercy) but they keep persecuting the Christians and their probation did close.
Rom 11:15-23 For if the casting away of them (Jews) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ... Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. ....continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Stop looking at the Earthly Jerulalem and the Earthly Jews because their time has ended, Finished, past. The 70 weeks are past.

I believe with my whole heart that my Evangelical theologians have correctly interpreted the 70 weeks of Daniel, and the pre-trib Calling Out of the Bride. Therefore the 70th Weeks of Daniel begins after the Holy Spirit in us and we are taken out of the way by being Caught Up to forever be where HE is.

I believe your theologians who have interpreted it otherwise, interpreted it INCORRECTLY.

END OF THE DEBATE. Believe whatever you want. We shall all see.

VCO · Jun 5, 2015

PlainWord said:

No, that would only mean he gave me time to lead at least on more to KNOW HIM as Lord.

Will you Cry and be Bitter towards God, when you find out you were left behind?

Gr8grace · Jun 5, 2015

VCO said:

I am pre trib. But where do get the scripture for a believer not being caught up? The only prerequisite I see is to be born again.

I see losing a crown(reward.). Even if one believer was left, It couldn't be called THE apostasy.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

VCO said:

Nope. I don't want to go out with you that do.

But then again, your teaching is an involuntary snatching away which is only based on being a child of God and not based on belief of a timing. Are you now teaching otherwise?

FancyNancy · Jun 5, 2015

PlainWord said:

That kind of wish can be easily accommodated by the Lord.

PlainWord · Jun 5, 2015

FancyNancy said:

This is what Jesus commanded:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

Again, if you guys want to go out, do so at your own peril.

FancyNancy · Jun 5, 2015

PlainWord said:

If you have received Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord, you will be caught up with us, whether you believe it or not. There is only peril in remaining behind with fellow unbelievers.

When does the rapture occur?

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