When does the rapture occur?

[Elin]

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (taken by death, or taken to meet the lord in the air), and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The word Rapture is not in my Bible anywhere??
I have looked high and low for evidence that people will just disappear but i can't find it??

Your Bible was written in Greek, where the word is harpazo, found in 1Th 4:16-17.

I know Jesus will come but no one know the exact time not even the angels. Mat 24:36
When He come His reward is with Him so judgement has already finished. No second chance after He comes. Rev 22:12.

 

[popeye]

Who had extra oil which was needed for a later than expected appearance of the groom, the 5 wise or 5 foolish??? We have extra oil because we expect the groom to come later than you. The Pre-Trib doctrine does not require a watching at all. You teach an involuntary snatching without warning or prerequisite. Most of you teach that you won't even see it coming. You will be walking along then poof, gone. In the 10 virgin example, they at least had some warning that the groom was coming. But you teach NO WARNING, an instant rapture at some point before the Tribulation.

None of you can say exactly how long before the Tribulation that the rapture takes place, but most of you think the Tribulation starts very soon after, perhaps immediately after. But such thinking has a major problem. We are told that the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation and not the Pre-Trib Return of Christ.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” ... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So unless you are calling Christ the Abomination of Desolation (which I know you would never do), then Christ cannot appear for a Rapture followed immediately by the appearance of the A/C. Such an idea defies all logic. Such thinking suggests Christ comes (secretly or not) snatches the Church off the planet. Presumably this sends terror into the hearts of the planet and many suddenly come to Christ. The same day or next day, the Man of Sin shows up in the Temple claiming to be the Christ that had just come moments or days earlier?

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

How can Satan claim to be the Christ that had just left without violating the passage above? How could Christ leave the Church He just raptured to come back down without the Saints to reign on earth? The Saints are supposed to be with the Returning Christ, everyone knows this, even unbelievers.

Also, you pre-tribbers with all your books and movies, have imbedded the idea in the minds of the world that Christ comes to rapture followed by a terror-filled reign of the AntiChrist before the Lord comes again in 3.5 or 7 years to defeat the A/C. Pretty much the entire world knows this story by now. It's been in many Hollywood movies especially recently such as "This is the End" with Seth Rogan and "Left Behind" with Nicholas Cage, etc. Don't you think that if Christ does the Rapture pre-trib that the world would by now know that the AntiChrist is next so that when the A/C appears, nobody would believe him to be Christ?

The world just witnesses the disappearance of 2 billion Christians with planes and buses crashing and mayhem everywhere then suddenly a lightening commanding man appears in the temple claiming to be God that more than a few people would be wary? Who is going to follow this guy? Nobody is going to believe the AntiChrist if Christ comes first. The only way for the Man of Sin to pull off the deception is to get people to think Christ comes first so that when he comes, many will think he is Christ. That is the only way for the deception of the A/C to work and he's been planning it for nearly 200 years and now has main stream Hollywood helping him. That alone should be a big clue.

Who had extra oil which was needed for a later than expected appearance of the groom, the 5 wise or 5 foolish??? We have extra oil because we expect the groom to come later than you. The Pre-Trib doctrine does not require a watching at all. You teach an involuntary snatching without warning or prerequisite. Most of you teach that you won't even see it coming. You will be walking along then poof, gone. In the 10 virgin example, they at least had some warning that the groom was coming. But you teach NO WARNING, an instant rapture at some point before the Tribulation.

UH, a look at the word will prove you wrong;
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Your version; but the wise knew he was coming at midnight so they checked their oil and never slept.

You should really study these things. Oh,wait,you said anything regarding the marriage bored you..

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Elin

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation from decay (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture, and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

And that is all she will defend regarding the church age, the second coming and the end of time,
because the above is the certain teaching of the NT word of God, whereas
everything else is uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles,
which are interpreted to mean very different things within the body of Christ.

That view necessitates the erroneous addition of riderless postrib horses coming down from heaven,and the raptured/resurrected saints mounting them in midair,bypassing the maarriage supper in heaven and doing an erroneous u turn back to earth.

None of which is defendable.,outsde of a postrib camp.

Noah's ark would need to turn into a submarine PREFLOOD,then rescued AFTER the flood
Lot would need a erroneous postjudgement deliverance/immediate return ,and a fireproof bombshelter.,along with setting up in the ruins of the destroyed city.

 

[Elin]

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation from decay (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture, and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

And that is all I will defend regarding the church age, the second coming and the end of time, because the above is the certain teaching of the NT word of God, whereas
everything else is uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which are interpreted within the body of Christ to mean things very different.

That view

Certain NT teaching is not a "view," that applies only to uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles.

necessitates the erroneous addition of riderless postrib horses coming down from heaven,and the raptured/resurrected saints mounting them in midair,bypassing the maarriage supper in heaven and doing an erroneous u turn back to earth.

Only in your private uncertain interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which others in the body of Christ interpret entirely differently. . .

In the certain teaching of the NT, the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation of creation from decay all occur at the end of time.

None of which is defendable.,outsde of a postrib camp.

And all of which is uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles set against certain NT teaching, and which riddles are interpreted entirely differently by others in the body of Christ.

 

[VCO]

Postrib doctrine has them erroneously looking for the AC instead of watching and waiting for Jesus.
Even the 5 foolish had enough mustard in their walk to watch and wait. Postribs have literally disenfranchised themselves.

The biggest reason why Postrib Theology makes NO SENSE, is when the Antichrist signs that Peace Treaty Covenant, that will obviously be LIVE on CNN. That Treaty is Seven Years to the very day, and from that point on everyone knows the Day of Christ's Second Coming. Because it is CHRIST HIMSELF that puts an END to Antichrist's Seven Year REIGN OF TERROR.

Therefore the Prophecy of "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR" at the end of the Parable of 10 Virgins is Clearly a reference to Our being CAUGHT UP to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, and NOT THE SECOND COMING.

 

[VCO]

. . .Don't you think that if Christ does the Rapture pre-trib that the world would by now know that the AntiChrist is next so that when the A/C appears, nobody would believe him to be Christ?

The world just witnesses the disappearance of 2 billion Christians with planes and buses crashing and mayhem everywhere then . . . more than a few people would be wary? . . . That alone should be a big clue.

So where on Earth did you get the IDEA, that Unbelievers only need one more Sign or Miracle, and THEN they will believe?

You certainly did not get that idea from the BIBLE.

They didn't believe when Christ was Raised from the dead, Why do you think unbelieving Mankind has changed? Once again Unbelieving Mankind will much rather believe a LIE than the the TRUTH. EXAMPLES: "The Russians must have a new secret weapon, they made half of our Citizens disappear." "The UFO MOTHERSHIP, hidden in the clouds beamed them all up." "I don't care what happened to them, I am just *%#@ glad they are finally GONE." Don't Believe me, LOOK how they celebrate and give each other presents, when the two witnesses are killed in the streets of Jerusalem, Rev. 11:7-10.


Matthew 12:38-40 (ASV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
[SUP]40 [/SUP] for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:1-4 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He answered them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

NOTHING UNDER THE SUN HAS CHANGED:

Exodus 4:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice; for they will say, Jehovah hath not appeared unto thee.

Numbers 14:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?

Matthew 27:42 (YLT)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] `Others he saved; himself he is not able to save! If he be King of Israel, let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe him;

Matthew 13:19 (NRSV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path.

Acts 13:41 (ESV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] “‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[VCO]

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (taken by death, or taken to meet the lord in the air), and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The word Rapture is not in my Bible anywhere??
I have looked high and low for evidence that people will just disappear but i can't find it??
I know Jesus will come but no one know the exact time not even the angels. Mat 24:36
When He come His reward is with Him so judgement has already finished. No second chance after He comes. Rev 22:12.

Now I KNOW you heard that statement from some preacher and you thought it was wisdom; but allow me to show you how FOOLISH that argument actually.

The Word Bible is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Computer is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Quartet is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Acapella is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Acolyte is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Narthex is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Pew is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Vespers is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Maps is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Software is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Exposit is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Organist is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Soteriology is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Eschatology is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Ecclesiology is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Theology is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.

In other words, WE have continued to give things a NAME that did not have a name, because GOD commanded Adam to Name all the animals, and we think it is a good idea to follow that example. OF COURSE all those things EXIST, andc the absence of the WORD in the BIBLE does NOT confirm it does not Exist. Didn't you know we also only have the Highlights of Christ's Life on Earth?

John 21:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

 

[flob]

Because it is CHRIST HIMSELF that puts an END to Antichrist's Seven Year REIGN OF TERROR.

I call it 3 1/2 year reign of terror because that's the number(s) Daniel and John use. Various. So that we know it is not any figurative number. 'Time, times, and half a time,' '42 months,' '1260 days.'

But then 7 years is a marker for Both raptures. Both the post-trib rapture, as well as the end-trib rapture.
Folks may know the year, therefore, but not the day and hour.

In any case, this may be the reason these sill(ier) interpreters here try to claim Daniel's 70th week is finished history!

 

[3Scoreand10]

The biggest reason why Postrib Theology makes NO SENSE, is when the Antichrist signs that Peace Treaty Covenant, that will obviously be LIVE on CNN. That Treaty is Seven Years to the very day, and from that point on everyone knows the Day of Christ's Second Coming. Because it is CHRIST HIMSELF that puts an END to Antichrist's Seven Year REIGN OF TERROR.

Therefore the Prophecy of "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR" at the end of the Parable of 10 Virgins is Clearly a reference to Our being CAUGHT UP to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, and NOT THE SECOND COMING.

What scripture do you base the peace treaty of seven years on?

 

[GaryA]

UH, a look at the word will prove you wrong;
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose { from sleep }, and trimmed their lamps.

Your version; but the wise knew he was coming at midnight so they checked their oil and never slept.

You should really study these things. Oh,wait,you said anything regarding the marriage bored you..

Perhaps you should take a look at your own words...?

 

[popeye]

Perhaps you should take a look at your own words...?

Me thinks you did not see my point,but instead, what you read into it.

 

[VCO]

I call it 3 1/2 year reign of terror because that's the number(s) Daniel and John use. Various. So that we know it is not any figurative number. 'Time, times, and half a time,' '42 months,' '1260 days.'

But then 7 years is a marker for Both raptures. Both the post-trib rapture, as well as the end-trib rapture.
Folks may know the year, therefore, but not the day and hour.

In any case, this may be the reason these sill(ier) interpreters here try to claim Daniel's 70th week is finished history!

Hitler was a picture Type of Antichrist, was he evil from the beginning, or did he turn evil three and a half years later.

The evil Take Over of the 10 Nation Confederacy, IS EVIL.

The sinister plot to trick Israel into a deceitful Seven Year Peace Treaty, IS EVIL.

The sinister plot to deceive everyone, into going to a Cashless Society that he alone can take over, IS EVIL.


THE ENTIRE REIGN of the EVIL ONE, is part of the Great Tribulation, that progressively becomes worse and worse.

And the sands to the final Months or maybe years his arrival are getting VERY LOW in the Hour Glass.


Denmark moves closer to a cashless society - Europe - World - The Independent

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2006/html/sp060920.en.html

Welcome to Sweden - the most cash-free society on the planet | Business | The Guardian

On the Road to a Cashless Society

The Statesman: Cashless society


Currently the number ONE, most cashless society is Belgium at 93% of ALL SALES being cashless, and guess where the Euopean Union Meets? Brussels, Belgium. So how close are they to outlawing hard currency and paper currencty? ? ?

Why am I mentioning all THAT? ONLY with a Cashless Society, can the Antichrist control ALL BUYING and SELLING.

Revelation 13:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark: the beast’s name or the number of his name.


Most likely that Mark will be an implanted computer chip as small as a grain of salt, which replaces ALL credit cards.

 

[SolidGround]

The biggest reason why Postrib Theology makes NO SENSE, is when the Antichrist signs that Peace Treaty Covenant, that will obviously be LIVE on CNN. That Treaty is Seven Years to the very day, and from that point on everyone knows the Day of Christ's Second Coming. Because it is CHRIST HIMSELF that puts an END to Antichrist's Seven Year REIGN OF TERROR.

Therefore the Prophecy of "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR" at the end of the Parable of 10 Virgins is Clearly a reference to Our being CAUGHT UP to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, and NOT THE SECOND COMING.

The assumption is that the math is right.
The issue is that Judgement is IMMINENT. The prophecies of Christ Himself, and His prophecies through John, leave no room for repentance during the time of Wrath and Judgements. It is not a 7 year thing, but a Day.
The seven years is not the same event as the Day of the Lord.

I fear that many have grown accustomed to certain assumptions that are not actually revealed in Scripture. That is my issue with the system of Dispensationalism: it assumes too much, and assumes that revelation is complete... and yet John clearly states that the revealing is yet to come. The End is still a mystery... yet the Victory is assured.

Our assurance is not in knowing the Plan, but in knowing the Planner.

 

[SolidGround]

So where on Earth did you get the IDEA, that Unbelievers only need one more Sign or Miracle, and THEN they will believe?

You certainly did not get that idea from the BIBLE.

They didn't believe when Christ was Raised from the dead, Why do you think unbelieving Mankind has changed? Once again Unbelieving Mankind will much rather believe a LIE than the the TRUTH. EXAMPLES: "The Russians must have a new secret weapon, they made half of our Citizens disappear." "The UFO MOTHERSHIP, hidden in the clouds beamed them all up." "I don't care what happened to them, I am just *%#@ glad they are finally GONE." Don't Believe me, LOOK how they celebrate and give each other presents, when the two witnesses are killed in the streets of Jerusalem, Rev. 11:7-10.


Matthew 12:38-40 (ASV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
[SUP]40 [/SUP] for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:1-4 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He answered them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

NOTHING UNDER THE SUN HAS CHANGED:

Exodus 4:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice; for they will say, Jehovah hath not appeared unto thee.

Numbers 14:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?

Matthew 27:42 (YLT)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] `Others he saved; himself he is not able to save! If he be King of Israel, let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe him;

Matthew 13:19 (NRSV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path.

Acts 13:41 (ESV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] “‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Believers will be aware of the signs.
The unbelievers will not.
The Peace Treaty (if the dispensationalist [sensationalist] idea is correct) will not be a sign to any unbeliever. They will be hardened.

 

[SolidGround]

Regardless of the timing, Believers will be aware and awake,
and unbelievers will be unaware, asleep and hardened.

Judgement will come upon the unbeliever without warning,
but Believers will see the signs of the times, and will respond,
and will leave the house, as called unto the Groom.

No trumpets will be heard, except by the ears that hear.
It will be too late for repentance and salvation once the Day comes. Stop giving false hope to those "left behind".

 

[flob]

Hitler was a picture Type of Antichrist, was he evil from the beginning, or did he turn evil three and a half years later.

Not a Scriptural type.

Take Over of the 10 Nation Confederacy...

Apparently happens at the start of the last 3 1/2 years. Not at the start of Israel's last week.

The sinister plot to trick Israel into a deceitful Seven Year Peace Treaty, IS EVIL.

Even if so, it is still peace, and not "reign of terror" for 3 1/2 years until He breaks the treaty
(in the middle of the week).

The sinister plot to deceive everyone, into going to a Cashless Society that he alone can take over, IS EVIL.

I understand that also does not happen until the start of the last 3 1/2 years.

THE ENTIRE REIGN of the EVIL ONE, is part of the Great Tribulation, that progressively becomes worse and worse.

I think only the last 3 1/2 years of Antichrist's reign is the Great Tribulation.

And the sands to the final Months or maybe years his arrival are getting VERY LOW in the Hour Glass.

I think so.

Currently the number ONE, most cashless society is Belgium at 93% of ALL SALES being cashless, and guess where the Euopean Union Meets? Brussels, Belgium. So how close are they to outlawing hard currency and paper currencty? ? ?

Interesting

Most likely that Mark will be an implanted computer chip as small as a grain of salt, which replaces ALL credit cards.

Very interesting. Very possible.

Our assurance is not in knowing the Plan, but in knowing the Planner.

Good phrase.
Israel knew His works, but Moses knew His ways

 

[VCO]

What scripture do you base the peace treaty of seven years on?

I like the CAR. Here is the verses, and a commentary on it. You NEED to remember, that in Old Testament Times, Peace Treaties were called Covenants.

Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince {Antichrist} will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed. He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

REMEMBER: Tiberious destoyed the TEMPLE, that is True; BUT HE DID NOT make a firm Covenant (Peace Treaty) with Israel and her Enemies. The verse numbers were NOT in the original Manuscripts, so I removed them to show you how after talking about the END, his thoughts did not change, but it is actually talking about the End Times WARS, and then suddenly one comes along who seems to provide all the answers, bringing about that Seven Year Peace Treaty. How do we know that Parallels the exact number of days that Antichrist will rule?

12:6 wilderness. God will protect Israel from Satan by hiding her in the wilderness, perhaps in the regions of Moab, Ammon, and Edom, east of Palestine. Interestingly, those countries will be specifically spared from the Antichrist’s attack against the Holy Land (cf. Dan. 11:41). one thousand two hundred and sixty days. At the mid-point of the Tribulation, the Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, puts a stop to temple worship, sets up the abomination of desolation (Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15), and devastates Jerusalem (11:2). At that time, many Jews flee for their lives (Matt. 24:16ff.). God will preserve them during the last 1,260 days (forty-two months; three and one-half years) constituting the Great Tribulation. See notes on 3:10; 6:1, 9.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

9:24-26 Seventy weeks... from... until. These are weeks of years, whereas weeks of days are described in a different way (10:2, 3). The time spans from Artaxerxes’s decree to rebuild Jerusalem, c. 445 b.c. (Neh. 2:1-8), to the Messiah’s kingdom. This panorama includes: (1) seven weeks or forty-nine years, possibly closing Nehemiah’s career in the rebuilding of the “street and wall,” as well as the end of the ministry of Malachi and the close of the OT; (2) sixty-two weeks or 434 more years for a total of 483 years to the First Advent of Messiah. This was fulfilled at the triumphal entry on 9 Nisan, a.d. 30 (see notes on Matt. 21:1-9). The Messiah will be “cut off,” (a common reference to death); and (3) the final seven years or seventieth week of the time of Antichrist (cf. v. 27). Roman people, from whom the Antichrist will come, will “destroy the city” of Jerusalem and its temple in a.d. 70.[FONT=&quot]

Key Word​

Confess: 9:4—lit. “to throw” or “to cast off.” This Hebrew verb conveys the act of “casting off” sin and acknowledging rebellion against God’s commandments (Neh. 1:6, 9:2; Ps. 32:3; Prov. 28:13). Confession also conveys thanksgiving for God’s greatness (1 Kin. 8:33, 35). Confession of sin is thanksgiving because it recognizes the grace and goodness of God’s forgiveness (2 Chr. 30:22).[/FONT]
9:24. This highly complex and amazingly accurate prophecy answers Daniel’s prayer, not with reference to near history, but by referencing the far future of Israel at the end of the age. God promises two sets of three accomplishments each. First, those related to sin are: (1) finish the transgression, i.e., restrain sin and Israel’s in particular during its long trend of apostasy, as in verse 11; (2) make an end of sins, i.e., to judge sin with finality (cf. Heb. 9:26); and (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, signifies to furnish the actual basis of covering sin by full atonement, the blood of the crucified Messiah who is “cut off” (v. 26), which affects the first two realities (cf. the fountain, Zech. 13:1).
Second, those accomplishments related to righteousness are: (1) bring in... righteousness, the eternal righteousness of Daniel’s people in their great change from centuries of apostasy; (2) seal up vision, i.e., no more revelation is needed and God will bring these anticipations to completion by their fulfillment in Israel’s blessing as a nation; and (3) anoint the Most Holy, consecrate the Holy Place in a future temple that will be the center of worship in the millennial kingdom (cf. Ezek. 40-48). Clearly, this must be understood as sweeping to the end of Gentile power and the time of Antichrist right before Christ’s return. Summing up, the first three are fulfilled in principle at Christ’s First Coming, in full at His return. The last three complete the plan at His Second Advent.
9:27 Then. This is surely the end of the age, the Second Advent judgment, because the bringing in of righteousness did not occur seven years after the death of the Messiah, nor did the destruction of Jerusalem fit the seven-year period (occurring thirty-seven years later). This is the future seven-year period which ends with sin’s final judgment and Christ’s reign of righteousness; i.e., the return of Christ and the establishment of His rule. These seven years constitute the seventieth week of Daniel. he shall confirm. He is the last-mentioned prince (v. 26), leader of the Roman sphere (cf. chs. 2; 7), the Antichrist who comes in the latter days. The time is in the future Tribulation period of “one week,” i.e., the final seven years of verse 24. He confirms (lit., causes to prevail) a seven-year covenant, his own pact with Israel, that will actually turn out to be for a shorter time. The leader in this covenant is the “little horn” of 7:7, 8, 20, 21, 24-26, and the evil leader found in NT prophecy (Mark 13:14; 2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 13:1-10). That he is in the future, even after Christ’s First Advent, is shown by: (1) Matthew 24:15; (2) the time references that match (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5); and (3) the end extending to the Second Advent, matching the duration elsewhere mentioned in Daniel (2:35, 45; 7:15ff.; 12:1-3) and Revelation 11:2; 12:14; 13:5. middle of the week. This is the halfway point of the seventieth week of years, i.e., seven years leading to Christ’s Second Coming. The Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel (v. 27a), which has resumed its ancient sacrificial system. Three and one-half years of Tribulation remain, agreeing with the time in other Scriptures (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5, called “Great Tribulation,” cf. Matt. 24:21) as a period when God’s wrath intensifies. abominations... one who makes desolate. The Antichrist will cause abomination against Jewish religion. This violation will desolate or ruin what Jews regard as sacred, namely their holy temple and the honoring of God’s presence there (cf. 1 Kin. 9:3; 2 Thess. 2:4). Jesus refers directly to this text in His Olivet discourse (Matt. 24:15). See note on 11:31. the consummation. God permits this tribulation during the Antichrist’s persecutions and then ultimately triumphs by judging the sin and sinners in Israel (12:7) and in the world (cf. Jer. 25:31). This includes the Antichrist (11:45; Rev. 19:20), and all who deserve judgment (9:24; Matt. 13:41-43).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

I know, I differ slightly from MacArthur's understanding, in that I consider the first 3 and 1/2 years as part of the Great Tribulation too, because it is a Totally EVIL, SCHEMING PLOT that is ONLY labeled a Covenant (Peace Treaty). So those two verses (26-27) are talking the Roman Empire both THEN, and in the Time of the END, the Revived Roman Empire (European Union, most likely).

 

[VCO]

Believers will be aware of the signs.
The unbelievers will not.
The Peace Treaty (if the dispensationalist [sensationalist] idea is correct) will not be a sign to any unbeliever. They will be hardened.

And perhaps some Believers will be deceived too.

Matthew 24:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

 

[SolidGround]

And perhaps some Believers will be deceived too.

Matthew 24:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Praise God it is not possible!
But point taken. Many who make false claims of faith will be exposed by their hardened hearts. The wheat and tares will be seperated at the harvest.

 

[VCO]

Not a Scriptural type.

Apparently happens at the start of the last 3 1/2 years. Not at the start of Israel's last week.

Even if so, it is still peace, and not "reign of terror" for 3 1/2 years until He breaks the treaty
(in the middle of the week).

I understand that also does not happen until the start of the last 3 1/2 years.

I think only the last 3 1/2 years of Antichrist's reign is the Great Tribulation.

I think so.

Interesting

Very interesting. Very possible.

Good phrase.
Israel knew His works, but Moses knew His ways

The Take-Over of the Third Temple, Yes. The beheadings of all who refuse the mark, Yes. etc. etc.

The Reason I personally consider the moment He signs the Covenant (Peace Treaty) with Israel as the Beginning of the Great Tribulation, is it was ALL a DECEPTIVE PLAN to destroy ISRAEL, from the minute it was drafted. THE MOST DECEPTIVE, EVIL PLAN EVER. In radical Islamic Teachings, the one who Deceives an Enemy into lowering his guard, so that Islamic Warrior can DESTROY that deceived Enemy, is the greatest of Heroes for Allah. THIS description of what the Antichrist will do, MIRRORS THAT TACTIC PERFECTLY. He pretends to be a friend of Israel for alternative motives, and that motive is to make his greatest attempt at destroying Israel.