V
Not just righteousness. Please read my post here, #97. What is the first thing Jesus mentions?
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Your argument is sophistry and you need some wrestling with the Word to get this right. God does not expect anything from spiritually dead sinners. If they ever got anything that pleases Him then it is because He gave it to them, after having first raised them up from the dead.
All mankind is spiritually dead (in that they are apart from God's will) BEFORE they come to believe. God expects and desires that ALL mankind hear THE GOSPEL, and BELIEVE.................Paul himself was "spiritually dead" APART FROM GOD before his conversion. God expected great things from Paul and purposed him to do His will and this was all imparted AFTER he believed............
All mankind is spiritually dead (in that they are apart from God's will) BEFORE they come to believe. God expects and desires that ALL mankind hear THE GOSPEL, and BELIEVE.................Paul himself was "spiritually dead" APART FROM GOD before his conversion. God expected great things from Paul and purposed him to do His will and this was all imparted AFTER he believed............
R
Why must I place the sin with Jesus for forgiveness. Why can't I ask a rock to forgive my sins I then know that In my heart this rock forgives me. Why must man duplicate his guilt why would others make him feel as guilty as can be. For it is themselves that generate the guilt. Do they feel that punishment is in order? By simply going on your knees in front of Jesus Christ asking for forgiveness is punishment enough? That this act in itself goes against everything man is. Changing him from the premitive war fighting surviving machine with basic instincts to a life of humbleness? Does the same change happen in Woman? Have woman become masters of Submission thus making them masters of domination? Seems like Woman have the best relationship with Christ. As man forgives himself and also asks for forgiveness then can he be a better suited mated? For family life in this day? For then he considers more then himself but that of his Family. Is there any other way to get to this point of humbleness? To completely Atone repent and purify, as can one do that to each other placing them as a higher power. Thus bonding themselves to a mortal pretty much submitting to their every will. There must have been a time without Christ when people would purposely make people mess up just so they can take control of them. Woman probably have mastered this game. Is that why as children if we did wrong got a spanking carried on did not feel guilt? At what age does guilt set in? Seriously trying to completely understand human beings is about as difficult as trying to understand God. No matter the cost will always fight to solve problems and restore relationships, But this goes way too deep, at what point in time did God banish and split the languages and so forth. He probably knew that in time there would be war non stop just by seperating everyone creating differences. Then with the foreigners staying together in the same land a hate for one another developed but only could be faught by trickory and deceit by law so thus sin is created by hate because one group probably did something different then another group or had something that they wanted. This multiplies gets worse instead of coexisting they are battling for the hill. Obviously there is innate hate built into just about all of us. Then I guess one day you realize theres no time to hate. Seems to me like we have been imprisoned in America, constantly scammed, brain washed, starting with santa clause, how could something Like the concept of Christ be fully believed or is one good by just accepting the fact like hey something happened to God, He has this crazy plan that is going to be awesome and no one is even going to see it coming just believe that accept that and be cool, Ride it out do your thing you know whats right for you and not right. This is America after all. One can live by their own standards and not adopt the complete morality of the Bible and prosper. I feel that the more this is studied the bigger the enigma, and once the puzzle is unlocked you are golden. Nothings going to stop you God will send his helper just follow the path and your going to live a nice peaceful fruitful life and have good people in your life. If one fights against his will, then destruction is the path, Does this mean that any one path is better then the other if the end result is the same? Do you want to suffer a whole lot or just enough? Basically one could do alright by always trying to help people. If you have that mindset don't you think that this is rewarding enough? So basically subjecting yourself to servitude of others whether they know it or not. Takes a watchful eye and a keen sense of surroundings to randomly help strangers in a way that does not subject them to clinging on to you or expecting more but can go about their mary way feeling like hey life's alright all good. Then you just made someones day. Browny Points.
How about when the opposite occurs seems like with the right code you can basically subject people into your will. Is this right before God? The Bible talks about having slaves and servants. But we must treat them a certain way. So as a fisher of men trying to put them as your servant what then do you have them do? Seems dang near impossible to get one to trust you. To do things way out of the ordinary. For then they are already subject to another master. How then can we become masters and be right with Jesus thus not stepping over any iniquities? You change their mind to that of the teachings of Jesus you control their financial affairs and advise them of what is right and wrong with what they got and so on. You step into every aspect of their life. Then you can become their master giving them a better way of life or the opposite. A drug dealer and an Agent of God are not too far apart but produce the opposite results. Both will take complete control of your life if you allow this. Which seems to be pretty easy for some masters to do some how. You master enough houses there's going to be blessings.
I am trying hard to apply The Bible the teachings and everything else into real life. For The Bible is a tool so how do I use it. According to the will of God. I guess the easiest way is to go to a church and volunteer then move up from there. Perhaps the effort spent trying to decipher all the meanings leads to the same thing that was in the beginning. I'm not to fawn of putting all my eggs in one basket when that basket is only backed by itself and a hierarchy. Then again the Book of Mormon backs the Bible. Still its funny how they came up with all the Bible names and if translated back into greek would it have the same meaning. All in all im just a cave man going about my way no thoughts of self or God just shelter food women and so on then somewhere along the way Man becomes conscience has some type of awakening runs into someone or something that completely changes everything the Man was doing then realizes that this life is Futile. This man is obviously disconnected from family and turned on himself. So he looks for answers. When a man is in his right place providing for family being the overseer watching his flock he then has purpose. He doesn't consider matters that are of no importance when the love for those he is providing for is all that matters this man becomes what man is suppose to do. Man decides that his work is not worth the effort that this is not the way things are suppose to be he falls back into pleasures of the mind he disregards the family becomes self centered, the family is lost for words they worry they are scared they are angry and then they feel as if this man is not going to be able to provide anymore and must resort to other means. The man is now lost he has lost his purpose he has lost all that is dear and now has nothing. He then falls into deep darkness of the mind with no hope in sight no one to save him low and behold a random man talking to the man about a man who is actually God that did what No man can do for the man so that the man then can be forgiven and reconciled with God. That man then has a choice. He no longer is subject to the ways that destroyed his livlihood in the first placed starts learning things that if learned before hand might of saved his ass in the first place but now he is surviving He trusts in God to lead his way stays cheerful grateful and counts every little blessing not to forget the value of the life that was given to man so that he may be well again and live as God intended. This is not an easy path for the man constantly having to start over loosing focus on the path at hand but he pushes on. His purpose not yet revealed for man must earn trust with God in order to have a path revealed so trial tribulations tests and so on tests the man's nature. If he proves right before God the path becomes clearer the route justified if the man fails his trial and tribulations he then must atone. Obviously God works the reward system, when man cannot take more punishment he rebels against God, he says fine do as you will Ill just sit here and die. You can cast disease on me inflect me with plague have thieves rob me and so on be in the presence of bad company but you won't bring me back to the path because you have not had mercy on me. So then at some point God does reveal his love he has mercy on the man and realizes that Man cannot be punished and be expected to do as God wills. He must be shown his follies his wrong doing why the man cannot function as intended so then truth comes to the man he then sees the error of the ways of himself and all the people around him. He then realizes that there is no path for him God has given all that he can to the man all guidance all love everything except a kitchen table. The man sees that God is sad has this feeling of letting God down and God has the feeling of Letting Man down. That this was all for you to experience created by myself life was to be open and vast for you wonders feeled but then God realized what the Man's folly was. He had not experienced how love works Man thought love was a course of action you do with Woman. He did not know that he could Love man too. Some man took this the wrong way, Love is when people do everything they can for a person. Expecting nothing but love in return. How then can one choose who he loves? Or who he commands to love him? For love shall ever endure if love does not endure then though hast not known love. Gods love and human love must be different. to be continued
How about when the opposite occurs seems like with the right code you can basically subject people into your will. Is this right before God? The Bible talks about having slaves and servants. But we must treat them a certain way. So as a fisher of men trying to put them as your servant what then do you have them do? Seems dang near impossible to get one to trust you. To do things way out of the ordinary. For then they are already subject to another master. How then can we become masters and be right with Jesus thus not stepping over any iniquities? You change their mind to that of the teachings of Jesus you control their financial affairs and advise them of what is right and wrong with what they got and so on. You step into every aspect of their life. Then you can become their master giving them a better way of life or the opposite. A drug dealer and an Agent of God are not too far apart but produce the opposite results. Both will take complete control of your life if you allow this. Which seems to be pretty easy for some masters to do some how. You master enough houses there's going to be blessings.
I am trying hard to apply The Bible the teachings and everything else into real life. For The Bible is a tool so how do I use it. According to the will of God. I guess the easiest way is to go to a church and volunteer then move up from there. Perhaps the effort spent trying to decipher all the meanings leads to the same thing that was in the beginning. I'm not to fawn of putting all my eggs in one basket when that basket is only backed by itself and a hierarchy. Then again the Book of Mormon backs the Bible. Still its funny how they came up with all the Bible names and if translated back into greek would it have the same meaning. All in all im just a cave man going about my way no thoughts of self or God just shelter food women and so on then somewhere along the way Man becomes conscience has some type of awakening runs into someone or something that completely changes everything the Man was doing then realizes that this life is Futile. This man is obviously disconnected from family and turned on himself. So he looks for answers. When a man is in his right place providing for family being the overseer watching his flock he then has purpose. He doesn't consider matters that are of no importance when the love for those he is providing for is all that matters this man becomes what man is suppose to do. Man decides that his work is not worth the effort that this is not the way things are suppose to be he falls back into pleasures of the mind he disregards the family becomes self centered, the family is lost for words they worry they are scared they are angry and then they feel as if this man is not going to be able to provide anymore and must resort to other means. The man is now lost he has lost his purpose he has lost all that is dear and now has nothing. He then falls into deep darkness of the mind with no hope in sight no one to save him low and behold a random man talking to the man about a man who is actually God that did what No man can do for the man so that the man then can be forgiven and reconciled with God. That man then has a choice. He no longer is subject to the ways that destroyed his livlihood in the first placed starts learning things that if learned before hand might of saved his ass in the first place but now he is surviving He trusts in God to lead his way stays cheerful grateful and counts every little blessing not to forget the value of the life that was given to man so that he may be well again and live as God intended. This is not an easy path for the man constantly having to start over loosing focus on the path at hand but he pushes on. His purpose not yet revealed for man must earn trust with God in order to have a path revealed so trial tribulations tests and so on tests the man's nature. If he proves right before God the path becomes clearer the route justified if the man fails his trial and tribulations he then must atone. Obviously God works the reward system, when man cannot take more punishment he rebels against God, he says fine do as you will Ill just sit here and die. You can cast disease on me inflect me with plague have thieves rob me and so on be in the presence of bad company but you won't bring me back to the path because you have not had mercy on me. So then at some point God does reveal his love he has mercy on the man and realizes that Man cannot be punished and be expected to do as God wills. He must be shown his follies his wrong doing why the man cannot function as intended so then truth comes to the man he then sees the error of the ways of himself and all the people around him. He then realizes that there is no path for him God has given all that he can to the man all guidance all love everything except a kitchen table. The man sees that God is sad has this feeling of letting God down and God has the feeling of Letting Man down. That this was all for you to experience created by myself life was to be open and vast for you wonders feeled but then God realized what the Man's folly was. He had not experienced how love works Man thought love was a course of action you do with Woman. He did not know that he could Love man too. Some man took this the wrong way, Love is when people do everything they can for a person. Expecting nothing but love in return. How then can one choose who he loves? Or who he commands to love him? For love shall ever endure if love does not endure then though hast not known love. Gods love and human love must be different. to be continued
OK. We're into other topics now. Free-will or not (and I do believe there is no free-will in spiritual matters for unregenerate sinners) is one, double predestination (which I don't either reject or accept in full, I leave that blank). Even though they are related in some ways it is still not the actual topic, atonement. As for the atonement, I'd say that I find more biblical evidence for it being limited to believers than for the universalist view.
Yes? In Ephesians 2 it says that God quickened these spiritually dead sinners, who were totally unable to contribute anything at all, including will-power decisions to believe, and saved by them by grace through faith. A spiritually dead person can not have faith in God unless God first quickens him.
V
Since it was originally in Greek, which had no punctuation, that doesn't carry a lot of weight. Which came into the world first? Sin, or faith? Does Paul say while we were yet sinners, or unbelievers, Christ died for us? That's in Romans 5:8, and the word "sinners" is amartoloß (hamartolos), meaning one who is "devoted to sin, a sinner," and while that means one does not believe and therefore has no compunction toward sin, one must first come to terms with sin and lostness before one comes to terms with unbelief and being condemning.
Go on bible gateway and you will quickly find the verses you cannot remember.
It does say do not judge, but this is in the context of condemning, because every day we make judgement calls on things, so it is focusing on morality rather than making judgement on things, like is it raining hard or medium, do I need a rain coat, or just hope it clears up?
Also long dumps of ideas do not work because there are too many issues. Try and break it down, look for a thread on a similar theme or start one and see what happens.
It does say do not judge, but this is in the context of condemning, because every day we make judgement calls on things, so it is focusing on morality rather than making judgement on things, like is it raining hard or medium, do I need a rain coat, or just hope it clears up?
Also long dumps of ideas do not work because there are too many issues. Try and break it down, look for a thread on a similar theme or start one and see what happens.
OK! Good point!
You are correct in that we must look at other scripture.
When I did my studies I looked at all references of "Sin and Sins". I do my studies by compiling all verses on the subject. I then looked at all correlating words related to the subject. I then looked at the Greek and Hebrew meanings. So I found a singular form and a plural form for sin. I then looked at what was happening with that sin/sins.
The result was sins committed by the flesh were dealt with differently than those which were internal and more spiritual in nature. Sins plural are and were resolved in different ways. Jesus forgives the paraplegic by saying your healed get up and walk. He then sends the disciples out with the same power to forgive sins. If we take the argument of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins we have a problem because not only is Jesus forgiving sins but so are His disciples. If sins are only forgiven at the cross we still have a problem because all this is happening before the cross. Since neither Jesus or the disciples have died for anyone's sins at that point, how are the afore mentioned sins forgiven? If there is a difference in nature of the sin/sins we can have men forgive the sins of other men. However the Sin of Adam must be dealt with by God and God only. That's my reasoning in a nut shell.
You are correct in that we must look at other scripture.
When I did my studies I looked at all references of "Sin and Sins". I do my studies by compiling all verses on the subject. I then looked at all correlating words related to the subject. I then looked at the Greek and Hebrew meanings. So I found a singular form and a plural form for sin. I then looked at what was happening with that sin/sins.
The result was sins committed by the flesh were dealt with differently than those which were internal and more spiritual in nature. Sins plural are and were resolved in different ways. Jesus forgives the paraplegic by saying your healed get up and walk. He then sends the disciples out with the same power to forgive sins. If we take the argument of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins we have a problem because not only is Jesus forgiving sins but so are His disciples. If sins are only forgiven at the cross we still have a problem because all this is happening before the cross. Since neither Jesus or the disciples have died for anyone's sins at that point, how are the afore mentioned sins forgiven? If there is a difference in nature of the sin/sins we can have men forgive the sins of other men. However the Sin of Adam must be dealt with by God and God only. That's my reasoning in a nut shell.
ALL have been reconciled according to the verse I supplied. All have been forgiven according to John the Baptist,"Behold the lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world". Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me". and there are many other verses. The world has to nothing to be forgiven, period done, a Free Gift. The prodigal son was forgiven and the door was always open for him. The salvation did not take place until he turned toward his father and if you carefully read the story you will notice the father expected nothing from his son but his return. That's the real Gospel as taught by Jesus and a far cry from the one offered by the church today.
Part of the problem is the definitions taught by the modern church. [Eternal Life, forgiveness, sin, salvation and saved] They don't match up with what Jesus taught or preached.
Part of the problem is the definitions taught by the modern church. [Eternal Life, forgiveness, sin, salvation and saved] They don't match up with what Jesus taught or preached.
E
I must disagree with you. Because ALL sin starts in the mind, thus they all would start from a spiritual nature.
You may have a spiritual sin which does not overtly come to fruition. but you will never have an overt sin which did not start off in the mind.
Even jesus said, if you even look at a woman with lust, you have commited adultry, even though you did not do the act in the flesh. Yet both are just as evil in his sight.
You may have a spiritual sin which does not overtly come to fruition. but you will never have an overt sin which did not start off in the mind.
Even jesus said, if you even look at a woman with lust, you have commited adultry, even though you did not do the act in the flesh. Yet both are just as evil in his sight.
I just thought of a problem with sin cannot happen after repentance and gaining faith.
1. Our emotional setup often leads us to sin because of inbuilt emotional history
2. If salvation was based on no sinning, it would be best to leave till the last minute before dying, because you would not sin in that minute so be saved.
One has to be a bit for realistic. We are part of a system which we do not fully understand and get swept along with it. We learn various strategies, but most fail first time out. So for a new christian it just looks impossible, because so much is new, and the how is missing. But a plant starts small, so the plant in your heart needs to be fed and watered so it can work through all aspects of your life. The analogy with sinless perfection does not help, because it is like asking a baby to walk at birth and writing them off from becoming an adult because they are just too small.
1. Our emotional setup often leads us to sin because of inbuilt emotional history
2. If salvation was based on no sinning, it would be best to leave till the last minute before dying, because you would not sin in that minute so be saved.
One has to be a bit for realistic. We are part of a system which we do not fully understand and get swept along with it. We learn various strategies, but most fail first time out. So for a new christian it just looks impossible, because so much is new, and the how is missing. But a plant starts small, so the plant in your heart needs to be fed and watered so it can work through all aspects of your life. The analogy with sinless perfection does not help, because it is like asking a baby to walk at birth and writing them off from becoming an adult because they are just too small.
Sin is not being in concert with God's will. We sin for numerous reasons and not all spiritual. Paul says the body wars against the spirit. The flesh is driven by many things. Hormones cause women to PMS and that doesn't stand for premeditated sin. Hormones in men cause them to be aggressive and sexual. Hunger will drive people to kill. It sounds simple to explain things away as all spiritual, but its not the case.
Original sin is in reality the ability to make your own mind up about what you are going to do. In other words, God says this and I'm going to do that.
>>>>look at a woman with lust, you have commited adultry, even though you did not do the act in the flesh. Yet both are just as evil in his sight. <<<<
Yet they can be forgiven by other men. How does that work?
(John 20:22 -23[Mace])
and when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "receive ye the holy spirit. whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye leave unpardoned, they are lest unpardoned."
(John 20:23 [CPDV])
Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
(Jas 5:14 -16[Mace])
Is any of you sick? let him send for the pastors of the church, to pray for him, and after giving him the unction, in the name of the Lord, the prayer that proceeds from faith, shall save the sick; the Lord will raise him up, and his sins that may have been the occasion, shall be forgiven. confess then to one another the offences you have committed, and pray for one another, that you may be healed; the fervent prayer of a virtuous man has great influence.
.
Original sin is in reality the ability to make your own mind up about what you are going to do. In other words, God says this and I'm going to do that.
>>>>look at a woman with lust, you have commited adultry, even though you did not do the act in the flesh. Yet both are just as evil in his sight. <<<<
Yet they can be forgiven by other men. How does that work?
(John 20:22 -23[Mace])
and when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "receive ye the holy spirit. whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye leave unpardoned, they are lest unpardoned."
(John 20:23 [CPDV])
Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
(Jas 5:14 -16[Mace])
Is any of you sick? let him send for the pastors of the church, to pray for him, and after giving him the unction, in the name of the Lord, the prayer that proceeds from faith, shall save the sick; the Lord will raise him up, and his sins that may have been the occasion, shall be forgiven. confess then to one another the offences you have committed, and pray for one another, that you may be healed; the fervent prayer of a virtuous man has great influence.
.