Does God Hate The Unsaved?

[eternally-gratefull]

Um, if it helps any. Most folks who know me after a while, and don't want to write out my whole screen name end up dubbing me @?$. (@ = at. ? = What? $ = Cost.)

And, I really don't think taking Romans 9 as a fallacy works too well. It's quite clear, God really, really hates some people. His choice. It doesn't get any clearer than, "Jacob I loved. Esau I hated." And, if that's not clear enough the before-that-line-in-that-chapter has been building up since after Paul's greeting in Romans 1, and is crystal clear after that line, if you keep on reading. (Romans 1 actually tells how God hardens hearts, so it's not like it's divided up in some strange way. It's really, really connected.)

I can't help that someone divided the scripture into chapters and verses, so many go off and think they can pause after a chapter. I just get Romans. The book, not merely a verse or two flung here or there.

Do you do this to other people books? Paul quoted Micah. Paul can not take micahs quote, and make it mean something OTHER that what Micah said (he can not take micah out of context. although as we see in here, people have no issue taking God and others out of context. yet it does not make it right)
Micah spoke of two nations. not two kids.

He did not hate the people, He hated the enemy (edom as a NATION was not only apposed to Israel, but to God, thus God was apposed (hated) them)

the term hate in the languages does not mean the same as it does to us today. Stop trying to interpret the words in our language!

God also chose to Give Israel the birthright, Not edom. Because he loved Isreal MORE that Esau.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 9 drives you up a wall, doesn't it? lol

No. Romans 9 -11 is a beatiful passage of Gods soverign setting of his plan through the ages.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This post has only persuaded me that Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc. is not a reliable dictionary and is theologically rather than lexically driven.

Thats sad, So your saying that he does not agree with you. so he must not be very good?

PS. He is not the only one who said that, I only posted one..

I also used biblical examples.

God said to love him and your niehgbor. to love and honor our parents and our spouse.

Yet he also said if we do not HATE these people. we can not follow him or be his children (speaking as in relation to him)

So you telling me God is telling us to despise, detest, or abhor our parents and spouses and children?

Sorry I can not buy it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would agree. We're told we can't be His disciples, if we don't hate everybody else (Luke 14:26). Yet we are to love even our enemies, as everybody loves their friends. As you point out, God is love. Greatest commandments are to love God and neighbor. This is a situation where words are not doctrines, that there is a context, the ultimate context the whole Bible, which does not contradict. In these situations, we know it is not saying we are to hate, so what is the context? What you find is that hate, in such terms, is relative to something else, a greater love, like the love of God must be preeminent in us, to where it compares to hating others, as a strong figure of speech, drawing a sharp contrast to how important God is, compared to anything else. That's all. It's not saying to hate. Isolation of certain scripture is the mother's milk of faulty exegesis and error.

Yes, It is hard for us to understand because our use of the word hate, We can not interpret these things using our defenition. We must use it how it was used by the origional readers and the author. Which tells us we must love God above everyone else. If we love anyone MORE than we love God, we can not be Gods disciple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I'll just be missing the 'root'.

But Christ is the root. If he falls out, you lost salvation!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank God we aren't saved of our own free will, because we'd still be hiding in the darkness to cover up our sin, if we got our will.

we would? So abraham did not will to trust God? Noah did not will to trust God? David did not will to trust God?

Sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anger . . .

amen.

When our kids make us angry and we have to punish them severely. does that mean we do not love them?

 

[PeterJens]

Hate. An interesting word. My daughters and son have sometimes stormed up stairs saying "I hate you."

They do not mean they reject me, and never want a loving relationship, they are saying the dislike into terms of anger about the situation they are in and it is because I am standing in the way and brought about something they definately did not want.

This is very different from hate which plots to murder someone, which is not in the heat of a situation but driven much deeper, and is a lot more cruel and evil. It says the target is not worthy of living, and should be removed at the first opportunity. It destroys peoples souls and consumes them like a desease, where all light goes out, and only this anger remains. It is linked to bitterness, and it poisons a soul. It says something would have been ok and worked if this had not gone that way.

God does not participate in things like this because He sees clearly, He knows the causes and effects, why things happened a particular way and how it will work out. So He cannot be bitter, he truly brings judgement, and destroys, makes flat, clears things out. And it is not as if His enemies can stop Him. So he has no need of Hate or Bitterness like this, these are human conditions.

 

[Gr8grace]

amen.

When our kids make us angry and we have to punish them severely. does that mean we do not love them?

It is basically......"loved"=approved ~~"hated"=disapproved

Believers are even in this scenario......"Walking in the Spirit"~~Approved,"Not walking in the Spirit"~~Disapproved.

 

[Rosesrock]

Easy..... For God so loved the world.

 

[Gr8grace]

No. Romans 9 -11 is a beatiful passage of Gods soverign setting of his plan through the ages.

The Irony in it? The very passage used to try to prove that mankind does not have freewill, is actually teaching us that we DO have freewill.

How does the Clay ask or challenge God in anything without freewill?

Why does He still find fault? Because He formed us with a freewill.

Rom 9:19~~ 19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?(our freewill and He made us with freewill)21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

The argument from the audience was they were elected by God and God could not find fault in them because of their election.

So Paul was teaching them that God can find fault in them because He formed them with a freewill.

 

[JaumeJ]

Perhaps you believe you are responding to my post, but I cannot see it.

Why would God put people on eartth who are prechosen to be saved while burning the remainder in the lake of fire? Why would He have cfreated all that is in the first place?

It is very important to pay close attention to the tenses of verbs, the antecedants carried from one sentence to another or simply from the proper pronoun or noun, and much more.

An example is how God will be pouring out a spirit of delusion on the earth so that those who have chosen evil will believe lies. Here their free will is over ridden by God visitig punishment on them for choosing evil over good.
Most times when God visits punishment or chastisement on a people or group it is because He loves them, but in the case of those who have deliberately chosen evil, He is simply visiting punishment upon them.

As for free will, unless a person is a demon incarnate, all people may choose between good and evil. As for what is here in reference to demons incarnate, this too is referred to in freference to the number of those who are to be saved is reached. Please do not construe this as being predestined, soon will come a time when what people are left in this age will all be known as saved or unsavable........for demons will be incarnate. This is easily derived fro Daniel and Revelation,

As for being foreknown, we are all foreknown when we repent and the Holy Spirit enters into us. This only can happen if we, by free will, turn from the world and its works to God...............

God's ways are not man's ways. He is perfectly capable of all, even allowing free will of individuals wo function within the parameters of this age and the laws that goven this age. Yes, time is like viewing a mural for our Father, but do not deceive yourselves, we have free will to choose good over evil. No man is able to change the overall scheme of things as designed by the greatGod of all that is.
Yes, there is a finite number of souls to be saved, but this hardly translates as the number being predesstined. The Father knows when it will Be acheived, and the closer we come to that number, the more demons will be incarnated. Again, this does not negate the working of the freewill of the individual, it underscores it.

Thank God we aren't saved of our own free will, because we'd still be hiding in the darkness to cover up our sin, if we got our will.

 

[crossnote]

What do you mean by saying adam was not perfect? Pre-fall or post fall?

I can only think of two things in our conversation which would have given adam the ability to sin.. I can think of no other reason.

Obviously Adam was not perfect otherwise he would not have sinned. In eternity we will be perfect insofar as we won't sin. Or do you believe that free will must be kept intact in such a way that we will always have the choice to sin in eternity?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obviously Adam was not perfect otherwise he would not have sinned. In eternity we will be perfect insofar as we won't sin. Or do you believe that free will must be kept intact in such a way that we will always have the choice to sin in eternity?

I disagree, adam was perfect. Free will does not take away from perfection. We will have free will in heaven, God does not take that away, the difference is, we will never desire to trust in self again.

That is the power of the cross. That is the power of what God did, that is why the angels looked with great expectation on what Christ would do.

Why do you think God had Satan kill Christ? Because he needed all to know Satan was the liar. it was him who does not hate, Satans lie is God does not love, God dictates, forces, and gets his way no matter who is effected or who gets hurt.

Well God killed that lie on the cross. One day, when we realize the full fathom of what Christ did, we to will never doubt God again.

It is not imperfection which caused sin, it was sin that caused imperfection.

God said I want to give you everything you need, But you have to chose. Do you trust me, or do you trust self.

In a moment, adam trusted self more than God, and that moment caused him to die, and caused the fall of mankind and the world as it was..

 

[crossnote]

But Christ is the root. If he falls out, you lost salvation!

It was a rhyming play meaning fruit. Some one said I'd lose my salvation over not brushing my teeth, I joked back and said no, just my root (meant to rhyme with and mean my fruit). It was just one of those ill planned funnies that went awry.

 

[Gr8grace]

I disagree, adam was perfect. Free will does not take away from perfection. We will have free will in heaven, God does not take that away, the difference is, we will never desire to trust in self again.

That is the power of the cross. That is the power of what God did, that is why the angels looked with great expectation on what Christ would do.

Why do you think God had Satan kill Christ? Because he needed all to know Satan was the liar. it was him who does not hate, Satans lie is God does not love, God dictates, forces, and gets his way no matter who is effected or who gets hurt.

Well God killed that lie on the cross. One day, when we realize the full fathom of what Christ did, we to will never doubt God again.

It is not imperfection which caused sin, it was sin that caused imperfection.

God said I want to give you everything you need, But you have to chose. Do you trust me, or do you trust self.

In a moment, adam trusted self more than God, and that moment caused him to die, and caused the fall of mankind and the world as it was..

And Adam was not created as a new creature in Christ. He was a perfect human being.

We will live in eternity, with a freewill, as our new creation in Christ, which CANNOT sin.

Right on with satan. Satan accuses God of being unloving,uncaring,unjust,unfair. God is proving satan wrong, and we are witnesses to that.

 

[sltaylor]

Keep reading. Jesus neither started nor finished what he had to say in John 3:16 only. AND, when you read it as a whole, you understand there is no "whole" in that verse for a reason.

That's ridiculous...I've had this verse memorized since I sang Jesus loves me as a child. Yes God loved the world, that encompasses every nation, not all the people from those tribes and nations, but every language and tongue, when I say the whole world, it's from the east to the west, that any man from any nation and tongue can be saved, as Jesus declared that his Gospel would be preached to the world, and also as Paul declared, that his word reaches the ends of the Earth, meaning the whole world. Yes I know the verdict, he passed judgement already by declaring his verdict when he says: "this is the verdict", men loved darkness, and hid their sin and would not come to the light.

But God loves the the whole wide world, there is no tongue that salvation will not reach as declared by scripture, his word goes out into all the earth. That does not mean that every man will accept it, it just means every man will be without excuse.

C'mon Lynn.

 

[crossnote]

I disagree, adam was perfect. Free will does not take away from perfection. We will have free will in heaven, God does not take that away, the difference is, we will never desire to trust in self again.

That is the power of the cross. That is the power of what God did, that is why the angels looked with great expectation on what Christ would do.

Why do you think God had Satan kill Christ? Because he needed all to know Satan was the liar. it was him who does not hate, Satans lie is God does not love, God dictates, forces, and gets his way no matter who is effected or who gets hurt.

Well God killed that lie on the cross. One day, when we realize the full fathom of what Christ did, we to will never doubt God again.

It is not imperfection which caused sin, it was sin that caused imperfection.

God said I want to give you everything you need, But you have to chose. Do you trust me, or do you trust self.

In a moment, adam trusted self more than God, and that moment caused him to die, and caused the fall of mankind and the world as it was..

So you're saying in heaven our choice will be more limited than Adam's seeing we will not have the choice to trust in self?

Also, I still fail to see Adam being perfect. Would a perfect person "in a moment trust in self"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you're saying in heaven our choice will be more limited than Adam's seeing we will not have the choice to trust in self?

Also, I still fail to see Adam being perfect. Would a perfect person "in a moment trust in self"

There is a difference here

In heaven we will know what our sin did to us, understand fully what God did. You telling me any person in heaven would have any desire to chose to trust self over God? Sorry I can not see it. I am sure in heaven we will be given some choices of things (not sin) God will want us to chose. thats what happens with a loving God (as a loving parent gives their child some things to chose)

I do not think your understanding what perfect means. Perfect means without flaw. Free will is not a flaw. so trusting in oneself is not a flaw of not being perfect. it is a possible result of being given free will.

Satan and his angels had free will. a third fell because of that free will. a third chose not to fall. It does not mean they were not perfect beings when they were created.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was a rhyming play meaning fruit. Some one said I'd lose my salvation over not brushing my teeth, I joked back and said no, just my root (meant to rhyme with and mean my fruit). It was just one of those ill planned funnies that went awry.

lol, I was just playing along with the funny, As usual I was a day late and dollar short so it did not have the affect I intended it to have,