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E
No, I think the inherent flaw of a loving God wanting to create a creature who will DESIRE to have a relationship with that God must give that person free will, which takes with it the risk that that creation may not want you to take care of every aspect of their life. they may desire they can do it on their own.
If God did not give mankind free will to chose. he is not who he says he is, because you can not love and desire a relationship with someone you have no option to chose to love.
If God did not give mankind free will to chose. he is not who he says he is, because you can not love and desire a relationship with someone you have no option to chose to love.
E
No, it can't be, because sin caused the relationship to be severed. Man after the fall could not do good. because they made themselves God thus had no choice than to trust self or other men.
Until that relationship is restored. Man can not chose to love others (using Gods definition of love, not mans). it is against his nature.
But it does not mean Man can not see his dire situation. See God and his wonderful creation. Realize they are in a fallen state, and ask God to show them the way, which he promises he will. That is when God draws you to himself.
to me this thinking that man would never be able to see their own depravity and dire situation to even seek God is a doctrine that sounds good on the outsie (it sounds religious and upright) but stinks of all kinds of garbage underneath.
Until that relationship is restored. Man can not chose to love others (using Gods definition of love, not mans). it is against his nature.
But it does not mean Man can not see his dire situation. See God and his wonderful creation. Realize they are in a fallen state, and ask God to show them the way, which he promises he will. That is when God draws you to himself.
to me this thinking that man would never be able to see their own depravity and dire situation to even seek God is a doctrine that sounds good on the outsie (it sounds religious and upright) but stinks of all kinds of garbage underneath.
E
To add. Adam still chose to do Gods will many times before he fell. this made him different than after the fall. and even different than us, He was righteous of his own power. we can not be righteous of our own power. He never had the flesh (sinful nature) we are born with it, and it remains.
He had something we will not begin to understand till we are in heaven.
He had something we will not begin to understand till we are in heaven.
My take is that man's choice is limited by his fallen nature and even when confronted with the whole Gospel call and story, will not be moved until God begins opening their eyes of understanding to 'see' their sinfulness and be enlightened to who Jesus is...the Son of God. Thus their free will is useless until God in His mercy moves upon them.
Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
G
Do you think that freewill was adjusted and changed at the fall? Or was it surroundings,circumstances and situations that changed?
I have a hard time seeing that freewill was what inherently changed.
Just throwing things out. Interesting subject.
I see freewill in man as one of the divine institutions established by God. Did God change that freewill at the fall?
I have a hard time seeing that freewill was what inherently changed.
Just throwing things out. Interesting subject.
I see freewill in man as one of the divine institutions established by God. Did God change that freewill at the fall?
I wonder why it is God has provided prachers, teachers, apostles, workers of miracles, and most of all His Word in pring, in the Flesh, and in the Holy spirit if mankind has no free will? Curious is it not?
My next question is simple, why are peope coming to Bible discussion to tell all they have no free will? What is the Bible for if not to pursuade individuals of God's ways, plans, and our future with Him?
I chose Jesus Christ after the Father heard my pleas for help, and the Father brought me to Jesus Christ. Another curious thought on this; Jesus comes from the Hebrew, Help of God.........Salvation of God. What a coincidence! My, my!
My next question is simple, why are peope coming to Bible discussion to tell all they have no free will? What is the Bible for if not to pursuade individuals of God's ways, plans, and our future with Him?
I chose Jesus Christ after the Father heard my pleas for help, and the Father brought me to Jesus Christ. Another curious thought on this; Jesus comes from the Hebrew, Help of God.........Salvation of God. What a coincidence! My, my!
G
And before the fall, Adam didn't KNOW good and evil. So he wasn't choosing good and evil until He ate the fruit(Fig/IMO)
So on one hand I could say his freewill got even bigger. Now He can hide from God and can choose good and evil.
But on the other hand he was separated from God. BUT, He hid from(a new choice in his changed nature) God. And God came to Him and Adam still chose to take the animal skins(Christ) and be covered by a sacrifice.
So Adam still chose God, even in His new fallen nature.
So yeah, I am still on the fence that freewill inherently changed. I see circumstances changed. And even more options for our freewill.
So on one hand I could say his freewill got even bigger. Now He can hide from God and can choose good and evil.
But on the other hand he was separated from God. BUT, He hid from(a new choice in his changed nature) God. And God came to Him and Adam still chose to take the animal skins(Christ) and be covered by a sacrifice.
So Adam still chose God, even in His new fallen nature.
So yeah, I am still on the fence that freewill inherently changed. I see circumstances changed. And even more options for our freewill.
S
It seems that we equate Gods anger with ours.... only His temper tantrum is on a cosmic scale where ours would be chucking the tv remote across the room. Gods anger and wrath and hatred isn't like ours. We can't imagine the full depth of Gods character with our finite little minds.
On a side note...I believe that when God says He can have nothing to do with darkness. I think it really means that darkness vaporizes to nothingness in His presence.
On a side note...I believe that when God says He can have nothing to do with darkness. I think it really means that darkness vaporizes to nothingness in His presence.
