Pride goes before destruction

[Jason0047]

I always told you and others that I never fully agreed with how Jason, even though a couple of you continued to try and make that leap !!!

Yes, the more we talk on this issue, the more I think we do not believe the same way at all. I say this not to wound you, but in love for the truth. For I believe God will not condone even one sin by a believer. He didn't condone Adam and Eve's sin (And that was just one sin); And we know God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[Rosesrock]

The Scriptures say everlasting life is a person. Read 1 John 5:12 and 1 Timothy 6:16. One can only have life in the Son. So when people say they can be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved, they are lying.

The bible in john 3:16 also said that the noun everlasting life is eternal and forever and those the believe will not perish or die..spiritually.

There are times in all of our lives that our sin will break our relationship with the Lord, but our salvation stays in tact.

 

[Sirk]

I understand this place is for rent.

Seems appropriate for the seer-and-prophet type.

ive mentored guys just like this guy, who never hit their wives or girlfriends but abused them just the same, with this exact kind of narciccism. In fact their "significant other" actually said they would rather be physically abused than suffer this kind of abuse.

 

[Jason0047]

The bible in john 3:16 also said that the noun everlasting life is eternal and forever and those the believe will not perish or die..spiritually.

There are times in all of our lives that our sin will break our relationship with the Lord, but our salvation stays in tact.

Well, for one, that does not address the verses I brought up. Two, if you were to skip down to John 3:19-21. It says anyone who does evil hates the light unless their deeds should be reproved. Meaning, if they repent of their evil and wicked ways.

 

[Jason0047]

How many times does Jesus have to be crucified for man to be forgiven???

Only once if man does not sin again. However, if man does sin again, they have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to (See 1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Hint: For by one man's...

This verse is talking about Justification and not Sanctification. There is a difference between the two. One is coming to the faith and the other is continuing in your faith.

 

[Rosesrock]

Well, for one, that does not address the verses I brought up. Two, if you were to skip down to John 3:19-21. It says anyone who does evil hates the light unless their deeds should be reproved. Meaning, if they repent of their evil and wicked ways.

Well you're not recongizing the fact that christ's forgiveness is everlasting, so there's no way you will understand restoration and a broken relationship.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Of course not! Those who claim it can be lost have never actually lost theirs. They're so "pure" and "undefiled," don't you know?

Don't expect him to answer, by the way. None of them I've ever asked have responded, online or face to face.

That is not true VW because I have more than once mentioned my testimony on here, that growing up I was raised in a Baptist background that thought the OSAS philosophy. When I was around 19 I walked away from God to live my own life disassociating from the church. When I did this I was not under God's grace headed for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

I was serving flesh/sin/carnally minded instead of serving the Lord.
It was not until I hit rock bottom at the age of 33 that I turned back to the Lord and gave my full life to Him. I knew His word well but continued to reject by how I walked in my earlier young adult years. That time between 20 and 33 years of age I truly believe by God's word that I was not saved at that point. God kept giving me warnings during that time to turn my life around, and I kept rejecting those warnings to do my own thing. So He finally let me hit rock bottom, handed me over to my sinful ways to fall and be woken up !!! It worked, thanks be to God !!!

So here we have another discussion, which we also had before: do our bibles contain in full the written Word of God to us, or not? Your position on that differs from most of us here.

And once again the bible is the final authoritative source to compare other sources to, but the Holy Spirit is the one who will guide us in all truth if we ask and then listen to Him, when it comes to God's word.

The bible clearly says the Holy Spirit guides us in all truth, and warns about seeking God's knowledge on your own and using man made educational systems over the Holy Spirit's. So once again if you deny the Holy Spirit will guide a person to other sources or people to help with understanding, then I do not know what to say to you!!! For even the bible shows the Apostles and the other disciples were sent by the Spirit to others for help in understanding and such......

If you place your studying solely on your own merit and just take what another person has told you with out testing it by going to God in prayer and letting the Holy Spirit guide you to the answer, then most than not the solution you have come to will be wrong. The Holy Spirit can not lie, but man's teaching and teaching systems, and even preachers can lie !!!

This is my final comment to you, brother, until someone tells me you have gotten over your ego and have stopped arguing partial truths and stopped scrambling, misinterpreting, or parsing Scripture.

Having opened on that negative note, I want to tell you, sincerely, I like you, Ken. You have a sense of humor about you that you hide far too much, and I believe you are sincere in what you post. I have hope that you might open your eyes to the truths that you deny, and begin to pull away from the false doctrines you espouse. Others here are too arrogant and angry to overcome their own fallacies, but you are not. You're a good man, Ken. Please read what I say here with an open mind and understand I say them with love, even though they will hurt.

Your comment that I've quoted at the beginning of this post is your ultimate Straw Man. It is the logical fallacy you pull out to convict everyone who won't accept your lost-salvation-active-signs-and-wonders doctrine. This is where you always go in the end, because in the end, this lie is all you have left: "You people deny the power of the Holy Spirit!"

Not only is that a lie, it is hateful. It is borders on arrogance, as though you and those who hold to your doctrine are far superior to anyone else, by having an understanding that they apparently do not have, and further that they, as you accuse, outright deny.

Secondly, you elevate the Holy Spirit above Jesus Christ, and that truly is blasphemy. Your focus is on "the power of the Holy Spirit" without crediting the work of Christ that makes that power apparent to us in our lives, and by faith in Whom that power is expended on our behalf. I'm not sure you realize you do this, I would urge you to think carefully about who you glorify, and why.

The doctrines you defend are fluff and flash, with no substance. You, ISIT, and others have insisted throughout the course of this thread, for example, that the Holy Spirit "empowers" you to do work. I've challenged you repeatedly, all of you, to post Scripture that proves that. You've posted nothing that does so.

You've attempted to redefine passages to make them say that. You've lifted passages out of context and misstated what they say. You've even attempted to use totally unrelated Scripture to prove your point. When all this is pointed out to you, you turn on the opponent challenging you, rather than giving a solid exegetically and lexically supported explanation of why your interpretation is "correct."

Discussing the subject with you is like grasping at the wind. Destroy one of your arguments, you magically appear on the other side of the circle with some other nonsensical, out-of-context, deliberate or unlearned misinterpretation of a completely different passage or doctrine that may or may not be related to the actual point.

You continually make utterly flabbergasting statements, like this one:

Calvin didn't coin that phrase. In fact, being late-medieval German, he wouldn't even have put the words together like that. The reality is that "once saved, always saved" is a 20th century construct and may even have originally been used by critics of Eternal Security as an epithet toward their opponents.

It's major faux pas like this that you constantly appear in your posts that you don't even realize severely undermine whatever credibility you might believe to have acquired. Nonetheless, Ken, I believe you are sincere and mostly honest man. You are blinded by bad teaching and selfishly cling to it despite its obvious fallacies. I love you in Christ. I urge you to examine yourself, please. God bless, but for now, I'm done.

I do not have a self-righteous ego VW so I would appreciate if you would stop dropping false allegations on me.........

Once again I would tell you if you do not like what I speak from the bible by the Holy Spirit working through me then don't listen, and put me on ignore or just do not respond to any of my posts. For I will not be swayed by any man made doctrine over what the Holy Spirit has lead me to, and before you jump and say it is not the Holy Spirit as another has done. The bible makes it clear that a) it is only not the Holy Spirit if it denies who Jesus is, and b) what He says does not match up with the bible. Both parts have to fit and I know it is the Holy Spirit working in me, because for one He does not deny Christ and He also does line up with the bible in what He said. The other thing He has done in my life is help me to have better self control and not be an habitual sinner any more. Yes I stumble from time to time, but I repent turn away from what I did and move on walking in the light/by the Spirit......

That is where you are wrong again because I did do a study on this and the phrase once saved always saved was coined and made mainstream in the Calvinist teachings..........Back then it was stated as eternal security but changed during the teachings of the Calvinist doctrine....

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Well, for one, that does not address the verses I brought up. Two, if you were to skip down to John 3:19-21. It says anyone who does evil hates the light unless their deeds should be reproved. Meaning, if they repent of their evil and wicked ways.

You're absolutely right. But where in that passage does it say that those who are saved who need to repent are once again lost until they do?

You're somewhat like Ken, only much worse. You aren't even nice. You're arrogant, self-centered, abusive, not to mention wrong. You twist Scripture, lift it out of context and try to make it say something it does not say. You quote Scripture and lie about it's message. And when you can't do anything else, you attack your accuser and say he/she "lacks wisdom" while playing yourself up to be some modern day prophet with "special knowledge."

I don't even bother with you anymore, Jason. You're hateful, deceptive, and exegetically ignorant. I wouldn't have replied here, but you're doing it again, twisting Scripture and trying to appear wise but prove yourself a fool. This young lady may not have caught on to you yet, so now I've told her. One more you can't abuse with your heresy..

 

[Rosesrock]

ive mentored guys just like this guy, who never hit their wives or girlfriends but abused them just the same, with this exact kind of narciccism. In fact their "significant other" actually said they would rather be physically abused than suffer this kind of abuse.

Those of us who have experience emotional manipulation can spot it a mile off due to deflecting direct questions and asking more questiins that do nothing but make the counterparty question their thinking.....nope

 

[tribesman]

I understand this place is for rent.

Seems appropriate for the seer-and-prophet type.

Ah, you mean the "prophets, seers and revelators"?

 

[Rosesrock]

You're absolutely right. But where in that passage does it say that those who are saved who need to repent are once again lost until they do?

You're somewhat like Ken, only much worse. You aren't even nice. You're arrogant, self-centered, abusive, not to mention wrong. You twist Scripture, lift it out of context and try to make it say something it does not say. You quote Scripture and lie about it's message. And when you can't do anything else, you attack your accuser and say he/she "lacks wisdom" while playing yourself up to be some modern day prophet with "special knowledge."

I don't even bother with you anymore, Jason. You're hateful, deceptive, and exegetically ignorant. I wouldn't have replied here, but you're doing it again, twisting Scripture and trying to appear wise but prove yourself a fool. This young lady may not have caught on to you yet, so now I've told her. One more you can't abuse with your heresy..

Dont mistake my gentleness for weakness or ignorance, meekness is wisdom undercontrol..,,....and im beginning to think that feeding him only makes him stronger. I wonder if he keeps a talley of how many scrpitures he posts no matter the context.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, the more we talk on this issue, the more I think we do not believe the same way at all. I say this not to wound you, but in love for the truth. For I believe God will not condone even one sin by a believer. He didn't condone Adam and Eve's sin (And that was just one sin); And we know God is not a respecter of persons.

You are not wounding me one bit Jason so I do not know why you put it that way............

God will not condone any sin by believers, and nobody is denying that, but what you continue to do is take and make the fact that all sins besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can and will be forgiven if the person truly repents of it. That is not condoning sin, but that also is not saying a person can absolutely not ever sin again (stumble).

We have had this discussion before a couple of times where you have constantly in the past made forgivable sins as being unforgivable.................By doing that you take the remission/forgiveness out of the Lord's hands and place it in yourself !!!

 

[Jason0047]

You're absolutely right. But where in that passage does it say that those who are saved who need to repent are once again lost until they do?

A believer does not lose salvation the second they sin. They can grieve the Spirit by sin. But if they confess their sin, then they are forgiven of sin. They also are to walk in the light as he is in the light so that the blood cleanses them of all sin. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7.

James 5:19-20 is an example of a beleiver of bringing another fellow brother or sister back to the faith to the saving of their soul because they erred from the truth or the faith by having sin in their life.

Even David repented of his sins and ask not to take the Holy Spirit from him.

You're just like Ken, only unlike him, you aren't even nice. You're arrogant, self-centered, abusive, not to mention wrong.

Well, that is simply not true unless of course you can show which Post #'s that this is true.

You twist Scripture, lift it out of context and try to make it say something it does not say.

I can say the same for you. But instead I want nothing but good things to come to you from Jesus Christ.

You quote Scripture and lie about it's message. And when you can't do anything else, you attack your accuser and say he/she "lacks wisdom" while playing yourself up to be some modern day prophet with "special knowledge."

Again, you seek to attack me and you show no proof of any posts that even says this. If you believe otherwise, then we need evidence to the contrary.

I don't even bother with you anymore, Jason. You're hateful, deceptive, and exegetically ignorant.

Why are you talking with me now then if you don't bother with me? Where was hateful, deceptive, and wrong according to Scripture? Do you want to discuss the Scriptures in love and respect or do you just want to attack me? What are you doing right now? Talking about the Scriptures in love or are you attacking me?

I wouldn't have replied here, but you're doing it again, twisting Scripture and trying to appear wise but prove yourself a fool. This young lady may not have caught on to you yet, so now I've told her. One more you can't abuse with your heresy..

Be careful by the words that you say. Jesus said we can be condemned by the type of words we use. Unless of course we repent and make things right with people.

 

[BradC]

Because Jesus needed to break the curse of Adam and pay for sin in our past lives. Also, Jesus is our Heavenly High priest, too. His sacrifice allows Him to act as a mediator between God the Father and man. He can be our advocate if we do happen to sin. Jesus did not come so as to give us a license to sin or to say that we should never worry about sin anymore. Jesus came to set the captives free from sin. So that we would no longer be slaves to it. Jesus came to forgive and to set us free from sin. Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to sin. Do you believe Jesus? The Scriptures says, Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. The works of the devil is sin. So Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil within all believer's lives.

It is death to the flesh and the redemption of our body that will cause every believer to cease from sin and not until then. If we suffer in the flesh we can keep sin from reigning in our mortal bodies. Jesus did not die only for the sin of our past lives, he died for all sin. In that, all have sinned and come short. The sin of tomorrow is included in the shedding of blood. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JASON? The sin we commit after we have been justified is under the blood Jason. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT? Next year's sin is under the blood. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JASON?

The sin of the whole world is under the blood, even the sin of those who have not even been born and have not done any good or evil. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JASON? Being under the blood means that all sin has been judged through the death of Christ's sacrifice, the Lamb of God. Without the shedding of that blood there is no remission of sins. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (by putting away their sin) and not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Cor 5:19). DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JASON? This is the gospel that we are to preach, Christ has paid for your sins and when you put your trust in what he has done for you, you be cleansed and forgiven of all sin. DO YOU BELIEVE AND PREACH THAT GOSPEL JASON?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Dont mistake my gentleness for weakness or ignorance, meekness is wisdom undercontrol..,,....and im beginning to think that feeding him only makes him stronger. I wonder if he keeps a talley of how many scrpitures he posts no matter the context.

I think he gets some kind of sick satisfaction from being abused while consoling himself with the thought that we are "all scum" compared to him.

And please forgive me if my post made you feel as though I was concerned your were weak or unlearned. Not my intent at all.

 

[Sirk]

There's is really no point in engaging Jason about pride because he first has to recognize his own. As I said, I've seen this exact attitude in men whose marriages and relationships are falling apart. His entire persona is indicative of a person who lives in fear and does not connect with people because it would be "losing face" for him to let others see him as he really is. If you keep pushing people away like this Jason you may find there is no one left.

 

[Jason0047]

You are not wounding me one bit Jason so I do not know why you put it that way............

God will not condone any sin by believers, and nobody is denying that, but what you continue to do is take and make the fact that all sins besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can and will be forgiven if the person truly repents of it. That is not condoning sin, but that also is not saying a person can absolutely not ever sin again (stumble).

We have had this discussion before a couple of times where you have constantly in the past made forgivable sins as being unforgivable.................By doing that you take the remission/forgiveness out of the Lord's hands and place it in yourself !!!

Not at all. Salvation is in God and in His ability to change you so that you can follow His Word or Commands (See Ezekiel 36:26-27). But if we resist God and we stop to continue in His Word and do not do what it says, then we will be judged by His very words in the last day (John 12:48).

The Scriptures say that we are to hide God's Word in our hearts so that we may not sin against him. Does it sound like that we can still sin if that is the case? Does doing such a thing sound like it it is the Burger King way or the King of King's way?

The Scriptures also say that we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. Where can sin happen if we are praying so as not to be led into temptation?

So you see, it is something that you desire from God to do in your life. Not the other way around.

 

[tribesman]

No. Men are ultimately taught the truth in the Scriptures by God. Yes, there are teachers in the body of Christ. However, there are also those who do not need teachers because God teaches them, though.

"But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

The practical application of this however was, hardly, including the very apostles themselves! The brethren were instructed to hold fast what they had been taught, so it must include continuously teaching same and submitting to same (2Thess.2:15). The "any man" referred to here seems more likely to be the false teachers, the heretics, who sometimes came knocking on the brethren's doors. It was a sin even to give godspeed to such a wicked soul (2John.1:9-11).

So we learn here what type of conversion is taking place. It is converting a fellow brother so as to save their soul from death and in hiding a multitude of sins. Many believe that this is talking about physical death and physical sin that is causing problems in a believer's life. But there is no physical sin that is different than spiritual sin. Sin is sin. If one sins, they sin both physically and spiritually. Also, everyone dies and there are even many believers who sin and yet do not die physically. So this is talking about spiritual death.

This is where you make it overly simplistic. The sin spoken of in this scripture was committed by a brother, who was restored. Quite a few of us would say this happened because he was a brother, already saved, it did not save him per se. Had he been of the devil he would not have listened to the admonitions of his fellow brother but continued in his sin. That would only have been par for the course for his destruction. But, he was a brother. He could hearken and return to the fellowship of God. The good work done to restore such a one brother was not saving him "again", though it declared the dreadful end of impenitence.

 

[Rosesrock]

I think he gets some kind of sick satisfaction from being abused while consoling himself with the thought that we are "all scum" compared to him.

And please forgive me if my post made you feel as though I was concerned your were weak or unlearned. Not my intent at all.

No apology needed, i was generalizing again..im bad about quoting and posting, sorry

 

[Jason0047]

The practical application of this however was, hardly, including the very apostles themselves! The brethren were instructed to hold fast what they had been taught, so it must include continuously teaching same and submitting to same (2Thess.2:15). The "any man" referred to here seems more likely to be the false teachers, the heretics, who sometimes came knocking on the brethren's doors. It was a sin even to give godspeed to such a wicked soul (2John.1:9-11).

This is where you make it overly simplistic. The sin spoken of in this scripture was committed by a brother, who was restored. Quite a few of us would say this happened because he was a brother, already saved, it did not save him per se. Had he been of the devil he would not have listened to the admonitions of his fellow brother but continued in his sin. That would only have been par for the course for his destruction. But, he was a brother. He could hearken and return to the fellowship of God. The good work done to restore such a one brother was not saving him "again", though it declared the dreadful end of impenitence.

No way. Not at all. The parable of the prodigal son also shows this same truth in James 5:19-20. When the Prodigal son came home, the father had said to his son twice that he was once dead and now he is alive again. This is of course speaking in spiritual terms.

In 1 Timothy 5, The believing widows who later lived in pleasure were considered dead while they lived. But does that mean, they are forever dead with no chance of repentance? No. God calls even various churches to repent in Revelation 2-3.