-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I see a trend here on this thread and others.
I see more Bible verses being used by the defenders than the hit squads.
The hit squad has only posted out of date you tube vids and CARM docs and the opinions of other hit squad folks, who they closely align with theologically and doctrinally that tickle their ears. If the hit squad does post a verse or 2 it is usually out of context or a cherry picked single verse they learned while their hit squad pastor was giving them the weekly 3 point sermonette for christianettes.
It could be possible they learned the verse in the weekly fill in the blanks notes provided to them on their weekly bulletin, or through the fill in the blank Sunday School or Wed night discipleship class, while munching on diet cookies and skim milk.
One thing is for certain, if a defender corrects them from using a verse like I did with JesusisALL and his use of 2 John 1.10, which has no application for testing a false teacher, only a gnostic with the spirit of antichrist. That correction is ignored and then a cute phrase is posted in response like, "post something of value and I will respond" or "I do not need to read your lame reply"
The Hit squad then as to rely on posting cute pics and then break their arms off patting each other on the back for being such true defenders of the faith. The hit squad then mock the defenders for being such fools, and profess themselves to be so wise, because in their carnal wisdom they know who is a false profit.
They boast of the gift of Bible knowledge they have think they have. They must resort to attacks, tirades and cute comments, because at the end of the day it is all they got, because they do not have the Word hidden in their heart. To keep up appearance of being in the Word they lash out all the more, when confronted by a defender that goes deeper in the Word.
The Bible says out of the abundance of the heart , the mouth speaks and speak whatever is truly in the heart.
The Bible also says the this about the hit squad:
Like clouds and wind without rain
Is a man who boastsof his gifts falsely.
Most would stop right there and begin to ignore the hit squad, but I see another trend.
The defenders attempting to speak life into the hit squad. Who deep down and in places they do not disclose to others, that place where pain, frustration, anger, hurt, offense and bitterness reside. That place where the hit squad is questioning: why is there not more to this walk, why is there no victory, why is it so hard to perform this walk for Jesus, how come I am doing everything I am told to in the Bible and I see no fruit manifest. The Word of Life cannot compute to the hit squad and pride of life chokes out the attempt.
The conclusion to this trend is this:
The hit squad's christian walk is a product of what they do.
The defenders walk with Jesus is a product of what they believe.
Being a son and daughter of God is not based on what you do, it is based entirely on what you believe. Belief is either influenced by those around you or by standing alone and not staggering/waiving or being influenced by others on the promises of God, through his Word.
If you hang with other believers that state they are just a poor sinner saved by grace, then you will believe you are a sinner saved by grace.
If you hang with Jesus and his Word says you were made righteous through HIM, then you will believe your are righteous before a Holy God.
If you hang with believers that pet any condition you are in or worse tell you that condition is God's best for you right now, and just be quiet and accept it, you will remain in that condition.
If you believe the Word, and do what blind Bartimaeus did and will not be silenced/influenced by others and you will be heard by the great physician when he passes by and he will answer you and you will be delivered of the condition.
I am not a defender of Joyce, Creflo, Paula, Benny, Ken & Gloria.
I am a defender of God's word and if he said it, that settles it.
I see more Bible verses being used by the defenders than the hit squads.
The hit squad has only posted out of date you tube vids and CARM docs and the opinions of other hit squad folks, who they closely align with theologically and doctrinally that tickle their ears. If the hit squad does post a verse or 2 it is usually out of context or a cherry picked single verse they learned while their hit squad pastor was giving them the weekly 3 point sermonette for christianettes.
It could be possible they learned the verse in the weekly fill in the blanks notes provided to them on their weekly bulletin, or through the fill in the blank Sunday School or Wed night discipleship class, while munching on diet cookies and skim milk.
One thing is for certain, if a defender corrects them from using a verse like I did with JesusisALL and his use of 2 John 1.10, which has no application for testing a false teacher, only a gnostic with the spirit of antichrist. That correction is ignored and then a cute phrase is posted in response like, "post something of value and I will respond" or "I do not need to read your lame reply"
The Hit squad then as to rely on posting cute pics and then break their arms off patting each other on the back for being such true defenders of the faith. The hit squad then mock the defenders for being such fools, and profess themselves to be so wise, because in their carnal wisdom they know who is a false profit.
They boast of the gift of Bible knowledge they have think they have. They must resort to attacks, tirades and cute comments, because at the end of the day it is all they got, because they do not have the Word hidden in their heart. To keep up appearance of being in the Word they lash out all the more, when confronted by a defender that goes deeper in the Word.
The Bible says out of the abundance of the heart , the mouth speaks and speak whatever is truly in the heart.
The Bible also says the this about the hit squad:
Like clouds and wind without rain
Is a man who boastsof his gifts falsely.
Most would stop right there and begin to ignore the hit squad, but I see another trend.
The defenders attempting to speak life into the hit squad. Who deep down and in places they do not disclose to others, that place where pain, frustration, anger, hurt, offense and bitterness reside. That place where the hit squad is questioning: why is there not more to this walk, why is there no victory, why is it so hard to perform this walk for Jesus, how come I am doing everything I am told to in the Bible and I see no fruit manifest. The Word of Life cannot compute to the hit squad and pride of life chokes out the attempt.
The conclusion to this trend is this:
The hit squad's christian walk is a product of what they do.
The defenders walk with Jesus is a product of what they believe.
Being a son and daughter of God is not based on what you do, it is based entirely on what you believe. Belief is either influenced by those around you or by standing alone and not staggering/waiving or being influenced by others on the promises of God, through his Word.
If you hang with other believers that state they are just a poor sinner saved by grace, then you will believe you are a sinner saved by grace.
If you hang with Jesus and his Word says you were made righteous through HIM, then you will believe your are righteous before a Holy God.
If you hang with believers that pet any condition you are in or worse tell you that condition is God's best for you right now, and just be quiet and accept it, you will remain in that condition.
If you believe the Word, and do what blind Bartimaeus did and will not be silenced/influenced by others and you will be heard by the great physician when he passes by and he will answer you and you will be delivered of the condition.
I am not a defender of Joyce, Creflo, Paula, Benny, Ken & Gloria.
I am a defender of God's word and if he said it, that settles it.
I've seen some verses posted on both sides of the issue. Essentially, what you have here is interpretive differences.
I'm not sure it's useful to be snide or deliberately unkind about large groups of people. How is it somehow more holy of you to call people "the hit squad" and imply that these people are Pharisees?
There are a lot of snide comments happening on this thread. I'm trying hard not to engage with it myself. I think ultimately we can only be responsible for ourselves.
It pays to be kind and gracious to others.
I'm not sure it's useful to be snide or deliberately unkind about large groups of people. How is it somehow more holy of you to call people "the hit squad" and imply that these people are Pharisees?
There are a lot of snide comments happening on this thread. I'm trying hard not to engage with it myself. I think ultimately we can only be responsible for ourselves.
It pays to be kind and gracious to others.
J
I am a sinner, saved by grace, clothed in His righteousness, by faith alone. If I believed anything else, I'd be a self righteous hypocrite, hanging with other self righteous hypocrites.
Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Luke 16:15 And He said to them, You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 10:18 For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.
Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin?
Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
Proverbs 30:12 There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.
Zephaniah 3:11 In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain.
Jeremiah 2:35 Yet you said, 'I am innocent; Surely His anger is turned away from me.' Behold, I will enter into judgment with you Because you say, 'I have not sinned.'
Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
Luke 18:9-14 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Revelation 3:17-18 Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Luke 16:15 And He said to them, You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 10:18 For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.
Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin?
Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
Proverbs 30:12 There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.
Zephaniah 3:11 In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain.
Jeremiah 2:35 Yet you said, 'I am innocent; Surely His anger is turned away from me.' Behold, I will enter into judgment with you Because you say, 'I have not sinned.'
Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
Luke 18:9-14 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Revelation 3:17-18 Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
J
I'm not a shrinking violet, not meaning malice, but hating certain deceptions, still sometimes feel I've been too frank, but I have cringed at some very acidic things said here, and including from those who agree with me. But I also think it's difficult, when some "chosen few" mentalities are trying to steamroll others with deceptive theologies, when people are more or less saying you're a rat, then getting apoplectic when receiving some of their own medicine.
Why not just say you believe in moral relativity, instead of trying to sugar coat it or trying to camouflage it as a form of christian doctrine, which it is not, it is a tenant of secular humanism.
Interpretive difference would imply using the application of the Word to support your position. Posting verses to support who you are is not belief or supporting a difference of opinion in doctrine.
I never said anyone is more holy than another, if this pricks your heart, makes you mad, tips over your apple cart, then it means you need to perform a heart inventory and ask yourself a few things
Interpretive difference would imply using the application of the Word to support your position. Posting verses to support who you are is not belief or supporting a difference of opinion in doctrine.
I never said anyone is more holy than another, if this pricks your heart, makes you mad, tips over your apple cart, then it means you need to perform a heart inventory and ask yourself a few things
Found this interesting concerning Revelation 3:17-18. Laodicea was famous for its wealth, its bankers, its medical school, its popular eye salve, and its textile industry. Sounds like they thought they had it made in the shade and yet Christ says he will spew them out because of their lukewarmness, and the people of the church are spiritually poor, blind and
naked. They must have really feed into their surroundings.
Then there is Malachi 2:17......Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, When have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them or, Where is the God of judgement? Malachi 2:17
And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. Malachi 3:15
People are being duped by the WoF so called ministers and others like them that hide their evil ways with a thin veneer of seeming to be holy, and, they may even think they will be delivered from judgement.
naked. They must have really feed into their surroundings.
Then there is Malachi 2:17......Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, When have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them or, Where is the God of judgement? Malachi 2:17
And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. Malachi 3:15
People are being duped by the WoF so called ministers and others like them that hide their evil ways with a thin veneer of seeming to be holy, and, they may even think they will be delivered from judgement.
Joshua, clearly there are issues that need to be addressed by everyones walk in the Lord. But WOF theology and latter rain is a problem. You seem to want to say you are not in this group or that. But I am in both groups. There are many like me, who dislike this celebrity heresy but desire to know more of the gifts, love, live and following Jesus.
Now let me take a verse from James,
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. James 5:14-15
Taking this at face value every illness should mean we should obey this verse. People have done this, and healing has not happened. There comes a point in christian experience when people stop doing this, because it does not work.
So is James wrong? Maybe so or we do not have enough faith, or we need to find the will of the Lord deeper and it is not just a lucky dip, occasionally you win, but most times loose. Do you follow this verse everytime you are unwell? Does your church? What about long term conditions, disabilities, problems with sight, stature? At what point do you stop?
In a mega church you would need prayer every service just to get through the medical requirement log. In fact all medicine should be thrown away because all you need is the elders prayer.
In reality people go to church with tablets, inhalers, walking aids, glasses, and we still believe. So something deeper is going on or our faith is in vain. Which reality do you want to live in? On perhaps entering the kingdom is only for the physically healthy at the moment.
So this makes me wonder who you actually are, because I love you, truly from my heart, and wish the best for you. Jesus moved me in my life and still does today, yet you want to accuse me of evil. Which evil is this?
How do you deal with WOF and latter rain, or maybe you actually have not, it is just the embarrising contradiction you never face?
J
The problem arises that people who believe their special doctrines, as a set apart body from the rest of Christendom, some body which is sanctified of itself, should never try to lay on anybody else evil, for rejecting their splinter group doctrines. It is the earmark of cults, to claim special sanctification. At this point, they've actually shot themselves in the foot. God is not a respecter of persons. There are no isolated denominations of a different Holy Spirit. If we're evil, but this obvious truth true none have an exclusive on God, what does that make somebody who's telling lies, and calling others evil for not believing those lies? Is there any more dark a work, and who is it that works this way, among the body of Christ?
Yes, and, add to that, the people that follow them don't have a clue. I joined a local Baptist church and they had an orientation class. The guy leading it wanted people to talk about their salvation experience. There were two elderly people, a man and a woman probably in their early seventies, and, their slavation experience was (not get this!) churches they had been members of.
Dear reader, I am interested in Joshua. He comes here proclaims his ministry to prisoners, and their coming to faith and I say amen, that is fantastic. But clearly, somewhere along the line, for me to celebrate or encourage him is wrong, because in his mind I am the enemy.
I have met slightly insane people before, they need an enemy who is truly evil, double minded, and once you are labelled that way, you actually must be like that. Unfortunately this is not real life, and many live in this fantasy world, where plain simple loving from the heart is not enough, I mean the supernatural is so much better than this. The clue to this delusion is the separation, when actually the true work of the Holy Spirit is to empower love and good works, to bring reality and show up sin and unrighteousness, to bring humbleness and patience, to put real solutions in front of people and heal real wounds and hurts.
I have met many over the years, who find life a problem, and want something else. If you do not fall into their definition of blessed then you are doomed, because their love and heart is so small. I thank the Lord, literally, His heart is so great that he sees beyond these differences and loves us all. So I long for a little honesty and openness, especially from Joshua, because though he claims to know so much, he clearly is not being open about his struggles.
Another person from this camp tried to deal with my words by saying love is old fashioned, we are now in the new age.
That new age is heresy, once you use those words, because God is love, righteous, holy, humble, infinite love.
Our songs are full of it, Jesus and His death are the eternal message of it, yet someone says they know the Lord and it is old fashioned. There is one lost individual. All the greatest knowledge in the world cannot bridge such a gap.
Now this person also called me insulting and evil. Again, I do not understand. Does not the whole reality shout wrong?
If someone comes up to you and says you should go to Africa, the Lord told them, does this mean the Lord has told them or are they mistaken. Most times they are wrong, but that does not make it evil to say they are wrong, on find out why they say such things.
We have here a situation when people have come out of dead, legalism into the light of viberant faith, so amen, that is good, but it does not mean everyone else is equally dead in legalism or spiritual emptiness. But unfortunately that is the tendency to project onto everyone else their experience.
I have met slightly insane people before, they need an enemy who is truly evil, double minded, and once you are labelled that way, you actually must be like that. Unfortunately this is not real life, and many live in this fantasy world, where plain simple loving from the heart is not enough, I mean the supernatural is so much better than this. The clue to this delusion is the separation, when actually the true work of the Holy Spirit is to empower love and good works, to bring reality and show up sin and unrighteousness, to bring humbleness and patience, to put real solutions in front of people and heal real wounds and hurts.
I have met many over the years, who find life a problem, and want something else. If you do not fall into their definition of blessed then you are doomed, because their love and heart is so small. I thank the Lord, literally, His heart is so great that he sees beyond these differences and loves us all. So I long for a little honesty and openness, especially from Joshua, because though he claims to know so much, he clearly is not being open about his struggles.
Another person from this camp tried to deal with my words by saying love is old fashioned, we are now in the new age.
That new age is heresy, once you use those words, because God is love, righteous, holy, humble, infinite love.
Our songs are full of it, Jesus and His death are the eternal message of it, yet someone says they know the Lord and it is old fashioned. There is one lost individual. All the greatest knowledge in the world cannot bridge such a gap.
Now this person also called me insulting and evil. Again, I do not understand. Does not the whole reality shout wrong?
If someone comes up to you and says you should go to Africa, the Lord told them, does this mean the Lord has told them or are they mistaken. Most times they are wrong, but that does not make it evil to say they are wrong, on find out why they say such things.
We have here a situation when people have come out of dead, legalism into the light of viberant faith, so amen, that is good, but it does not mean everyone else is equally dead in legalism or spiritual emptiness. But unfortunately that is the tendency to project onto everyone else their experience.