POLL: The Deity of Christ
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That's probably the most ill-informed, illogical argument I've ever seen made on the forum. I guess desperation breeds imagination when you're as deep in denial as you appear to be.
You're obviously unaware of the Jewish tradition of education for young men. Everyone not only knew the Scriptures, they could read the ancient writings. Hebrew children were required to memorize the first five books of Torah before they were twelve years old. Young students were also required to discuss these texts and write them.
Facts suck, don't they? They blow your dearly held biases right out of the water.
You're obviously unaware of the Jewish tradition of education for young men. Everyone not only knew the Scriptures, they could read the ancient writings. Hebrew children were required to memorize the first five books of Torah before they were twelve years old. Young students were also required to discuss these texts and write them.
Facts suck, don't they? They blow your dearly held biases right out of the water.
Idk...for me, I don't think understanding God's nature was supposed to be as complicated as we often make it. if God required theologians exclusively to decipher his qualities and nature to ordinary people I don't think he would've inspired Paul to say the following.
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
...In other words, since the beginning all we needed to do was look at what has been made all around us to understand the Godhead. Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm guilty of going to the Greek and Hebrew to prove an argument but the average person isn't so fortunate to have such tools available. So I can't see God - with his purpose being that all should know him - making a person's lack of intellect or theological knowledge/experience a barrier to understanding his nature. They simply need to look at what is made to understand him.
Romans 1:20 (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This means some poor, destitute village in a remote part of Africa has clearly displayed, for them, God's power AND divine nature (Godhead), exemplified to them in something they constantly see, hear or do throughout their lives; that God's nature only needs to be explained using those examples so that they easily understand.
With that said, I think the deity of Christ is a separate but closely related subject in relation to the equality/triunity of Christ with God and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, conversation regarding whether or not Christ is deity usually degenerate into whether God is triune, because there are so many important issues related to Christ's deity. And in the heat of argument, such issues are often conflated to the point where one can be accused of saying what he/she hasn't said...and then repercussions being what they currently are.
The thread question is, "Is Christ deity?"
The answer is, "yes. Christ is [present tense] deity compared to we who are not deity but earthly." It's a difference in class of existence, with Christ being from above and we being from below.
What natural example was man given of this fact? Well I think the way plants are different in class from animals is one example of this. Animals are more advanced; higher lifeforms than plants. Another example is humans to animals. Humans are higher lifeforms than animals. So using our natural examples, simple reason dictates that deity is above humanity. Christ is [present tense] deity. Christ said he was from above (...and I voted "yes" Christ is the Son of God, per p_Rehbein's OP).
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But from this other questions emerge like:
1) Was Christ deity during his ministry? ... because deity is not humanity; deity can't die.
2) What is the relationship between Christ (deity) and the Father (deity)? Because Christ and the NT letters in scripture say a lot regarding his subordinate relationship to God.
Yet again, if we are to keep things simple and stick with Romans 1:20 as a foundation, Paul says these questions regarding the Godhead are explained to us clearly by what was made. In other words, the poor family without theological training will have no excuse in understanding the relationship between the God and Christ. Scripture never says the Godhead was a mystery (as oppose to the once mystery of "Christ in you", for instance).
So I can understand SarahM777 and others' confusion when scripture clashes with doctrines and traditions.
Scripture says that Christ emptied himself taking the form of man.
Philippians 2:6-8
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, death on a cross
...Emptied himself of what? If deity is of a higher class than human, and deity can't die...but human can die...what did Christ empty out of himself at least for his ministry? Again keeping it simple, if we use "what is made" as the clear example higher classes of lifeforms live longer than lower classes: dogs can live much longer than insects...man can live much longer than dogs. So deity must live infinitely longer, being of a higher class...and God being life itself can not die. Yet Christ died. So whatever he had *before* his ministry, scripture says he didn't have it *during* his ministry...but got it back *after* his ministry...which is where I think SolidGround is leaning towards; that during his ministry Christ was [past tense] a man.
- Prior to Ministry: Deity...the creator; the word; the image of The Invisible God
- During Ministry: Man...the obedient; the faithful; the example for men to follow til death
- After Ministry: Deity (restored) AND Man (resurrected and glorified)
Yet even with being emptied of what he was, Christ could still claim his relationship, where he was from and what he did in ages past...but this is what angered the Pharisees, counter-claiming Christ was just man (human; they knew of his mom and brothers); that he couldn't have possibly seen Abraham (being only around the physical age of 30); that he was blaspheming when he said he was God's very son (from heaven).
---
Now when venturing into the relationship between Christ and God (and the Holy Spirit by implication) many like to make belief in doctrine a necessity for salvation and membership...and I will not venture into such conversations out of respect for the rules of this domain, but scripture is clear in what a believer is to hold as paramount of this faith:
1) Jesus (yahoshua Heb.) is the Christ 1 John 2:22; 1 John 5:1
2) Christ is the Son of God (from deity) 1 John 4:15
3) But Christ came in the flesh ('sarki'; as human) 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7;Philippians 2:6-8
4) *God* rose Christ from the dead (the power of salvation; resurrection) Romans 10:9
5) Christ is our Lord (Master, whose commands we follow) Romans 10:9
Whoever doesn't believe in these things specifically is "anti" to the faith...while everything else should be up for healthy debate.
Suffice it to say, if that hypothetical family was already given a clear example of the Godhead by what they experience day to day (per Romans 1:20)...then they also understand the relationship between God and Christ and the Holy Spirit without theological weight-lifting...and I think that clear example is - in fact - the family and its fathers and sons.
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
...In other words, since the beginning all we needed to do was look at what has been made all around us to understand the Godhead. Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm guilty of going to the Greek and Hebrew to prove an argument but the average person isn't so fortunate to have such tools available. So I can't see God - with his purpose being that all should know him - making a person's lack of intellect or theological knowledge/experience a barrier to understanding his nature. They simply need to look at what is made to understand him.
Romans 1:20 (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
This means some poor, destitute village in a remote part of Africa has clearly displayed, for them, God's power AND divine nature (Godhead), exemplified to them in something they constantly see, hear or do throughout their lives; that God's nature only needs to be explained using those examples so that they easily understand.
With that said, I think the deity of Christ is a separate but closely related subject in relation to the equality/triunity of Christ with God and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, conversation regarding whether or not Christ is deity usually degenerate into whether God is triune, because there are so many important issues related to Christ's deity. And in the heat of argument, such issues are often conflated to the point where one can be accused of saying what he/she hasn't said...and then repercussions being what they currently are.
The thread question is, "Is Christ deity?"
The answer is, "yes. Christ is [present tense] deity compared to we who are not deity but earthly." It's a difference in class of existence, with Christ being from above and we being from below.
What natural example was man given of this fact? Well I think the way plants are different in class from animals is one example of this. Animals are more advanced; higher lifeforms than plants. Another example is humans to animals. Humans are higher lifeforms than animals. So using our natural examples, simple reason dictates that deity is above humanity. Christ is [present tense] deity. Christ said he was from above (...and I voted "yes" Christ is the Son of God, per p_Rehbein's OP).
---
But from this other questions emerge like:
1) Was Christ deity during his ministry? ... because deity is not humanity; deity can't die.
2) What is the relationship between Christ (deity) and the Father (deity)? Because Christ and the NT letters in scripture say a lot regarding his subordinate relationship to God.
Yet again, if we are to keep things simple and stick with Romans 1:20 as a foundation, Paul says these questions regarding the Godhead are explained to us clearly by what was made. In other words, the poor family without theological training will have no excuse in understanding the relationship between the God and Christ. Scripture never says the Godhead was a mystery (as oppose to the once mystery of "Christ in you", for instance).
So I can understand SarahM777 and others' confusion when scripture clashes with doctrines and traditions.
Scripture says that Christ emptied himself taking the form of man.
Philippians 2:6-8
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, death on a cross
...Emptied himself of what? If deity is of a higher class than human, and deity can't die...but human can die...what did Christ empty out of himself at least for his ministry? Again keeping it simple, if we use "what is made" as the clear example higher classes of lifeforms live longer than lower classes: dogs can live much longer than insects...man can live much longer than dogs. So deity must live infinitely longer, being of a higher class...and God being life itself can not die. Yet Christ died. So whatever he had *before* his ministry, scripture says he didn't have it *during* his ministry...but got it back *after* his ministry...which is where I think SolidGround is leaning towards; that during his ministry Christ was [past tense] a man.
- Prior to Ministry: Deity...the creator; the word; the image of The Invisible God
- During Ministry: Man...the obedient; the faithful; the example for men to follow til death
- After Ministry: Deity (restored) AND Man (resurrected and glorified)
Yet even with being emptied of what he was, Christ could still claim his relationship, where he was from and what he did in ages past...but this is what angered the Pharisees, counter-claiming Christ was just man (human; they knew of his mom and brothers); that he couldn't have possibly seen Abraham (being only around the physical age of 30); that he was blaspheming when he said he was God's very son (from heaven).
---
Now when venturing into the relationship between Christ and God (and the Holy Spirit by implication) many like to make belief in doctrine a necessity for salvation and membership...and I will not venture into such conversations out of respect for the rules of this domain, but scripture is clear in what a believer is to hold as paramount of this faith:
1) Jesus (yahoshua Heb.) is the Christ 1 John 2:22; 1 John 5:1
2) Christ is the Son of God (from deity) 1 John 4:15
3) But Christ came in the flesh ('sarki'; as human) 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7;Philippians 2:6-8
4) *God* rose Christ from the dead (the power of salvation; resurrection) Romans 10:9
5) Christ is our Lord (Master, whose commands we follow) Romans 10:9
Whoever doesn't believe in these things specifically is "anti" to the faith...while everything else should be up for healthy debate.
Suffice it to say, if that hypothetical family was already given a clear example of the Godhead by what they experience day to day (per Romans 1:20)...then they also understand the relationship between God and Christ and the Holy Spirit without theological weight-lifting...and I think that clear example is - in fact - the family and its fathers and sons.
Of course the Holy Spirit opens or closes the mind of the individual to understand what is written. This does not minimize the importance of improving our academic capabilities. As Solomon said "A wise man will increase in learning." A child can only see the scripture though the mind of a child. To see scripture through the mind of an adult requires experience both in life and in the handling of the word of God. This is why we are charged to STUDY. This requires some measure of academic skill. The first academic skill one must learn is how to read. The more academic skills on has the better one's ability to read and comprehend what he reads. I use the Greek extensively because I went through the trouble to learn something of the language. This has helped me greatly in understanding things in scripture that I would not have been able to see otherwise. It has been my experience that most of the people who criticize the academic credentials of others are those who have achieved little in the way of advanced education for themselves. I am not saying that these things are requisite and yes I believe someone of little education can read scripture and see many of the same things I see but to challenge someone with whom you disagree simply because they appear to be more highly educated is rather petty.
F
To the contrary dear Elin:
At least in Merriam-Webster online, the definition of 'organic' preceding 'carbon' is:
2a : of, relating to, or arising in a bodily organ
b : affecting the structure of the organism
3
a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>
You're missing the English dictionary's assigned meaning of 'organic.' Which is much broader than your limited, physical concept. Likewise with the English 'mingling':
Full Definition of MINGLE
transitive verb
1
: to bring or mix together or with something else usually without fundamental loss of identity : intermix
At least in Merriam-Webster online, the definition of 'organic' preceding 'carbon' is:
2a : of, relating to, or arising in a bodily organ
b : affecting the structure of the organism
3
a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>
You're missing the English dictionary's assigned meaning of 'organic.' Which is much broader than your limited, physical concept. Likewise with the English 'mingling':
Full Definition of MINGLE
transitive verb
1
: to bring or mix together or with something else usually without fundamental loss of identity : intermix
S
I don't believe the holy spirit depends on a person reading the Greek translation to come to better spiritual understanding.
I don't challenge anyone who may be blessed with a great academic mind, but it is certainly wrong according to the bible to believe such an academic mind will give the ability to have greater spiritual understanding. 1cor 3:18-22 id a good example, and incidentally written by someone with a great academic mind. However ge knew it was the holy spirit who would lead him into truth, it is that spirit he totally relied on
I don't challenge anyone who may be blessed with a great academic mind, but it is certainly wrong according to the bible to believe such an academic mind will give the ability to have greater spiritual understanding. 1cor 3:18-22 id a good example, and incidentally written by someone with a great academic mind. However ge knew it was the holy spirit who would lead him into truth, it is that spirit he totally relied on