POLL: The Deity of Christ

[SarahM777]

Can someone please help reconcile this passage with the rest of the passages?
The problem I have is that Peter is very clear on what he says. Remember Peter is speaking to the Israelites. So why does Peter specifically say what he says in the specific manner that he says it?

Acts 2

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. [SUP]15 [/SUP]These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! [SUP]16 [/SUP]No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[SUP][c][/SUP]
​

[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. [SUP]23 [/SUP]This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[SUP][d][/SUP] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. [SUP]24 [/SUP]But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. [SUP]25 [/SUP]David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[SUP][e][/SUP]


[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. [SUP]32 [/SUP]God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. [SUP]34 [/SUP]For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
[SUP]35 [/SUP]until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[SUP][f][/SUP]


[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”


Now Peter says all of this AFTER he said this

Matthew 16

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

On the surface it appears that Peter is making a DISTINCTION between God and Jesus. How would any Israelite come to the conclusion from Peter's speech that Jesus and God ARE THE SAME or that God is One God in three persons? It seems to me that would mean that Peter is still confused about the whole thing at this point and yet 3,000 are saved on that day. And on the surface this seems to CONTRADICT the whole thing. (This is one of the passages that I have problems reconciling with the whole concept) So how do we reconcile this passage with the whole concept? The passage is there,and I can't ignore it or explain it away and it gives me a headache to try to reconcile it with the concept.

 

[senzi]

Can someone please help reconcile this passage with the rest of the passages?
The problem I have is that Peter is very clear on what he says. Remember Peter is speaking to the Israelites. So why does Peter specifically say what he says in the specific manner that he says it?

Acts 2

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. [SUP]15 [/SUP]These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! [SUP]16 [/SUP]No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[SUP][c][/SUP]
​

[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. [SUP]23 [/SUP]This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[SUP][d][/SUP] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. [SUP]24 [/SUP]But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. [SUP]25 [/SUP]David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[SUP][e][/SUP]


[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. [SUP]32 [/SUP]God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. [SUP]34 [/SUP]For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
[SUP]35 [/SUP]until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[SUP][f][/SUP]


[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”


Now Peter says all of this AFTER he said this

Matthew 16

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

On the surface it appears that Peter is making a DISTINCTION between God and Jesus. How would any Israelite come to the conclusion from Peter's speech that Jesus and God ARE THE SAME or that God is One God in three persons? It seems to me that would mean that Peter is still confused about the whole thing at this point and yet 3,000 are saved on that day. And on the surface this seems to CONTRADICT the whole thing. (This is one of the passages that I have problems reconciling with the whole concept) So how do we reconcile this passage with the whole concept? The passage is there,and I can't ignore it or explain it away and it gives me a headache to try to reconcile it with the concept.

Remember, it was 300 years after Christ died at Calvary before official church doctrine stated Christ is God himself.


This is also a problem with websites such as these. In every church I have been to you are simply asked to believe Jesus is the son of God. The ministers tend to leave it up to the individual as to whether they go further than that. So who is right, the ministers to leave it at that, or some on the internet who insist you must go further than that? I like your quote from Oswald chambers -

 

[SarahM777]

Remember, it was 300 years after Christ died at Calvary before official church doctrine stated Christ is God himself.


This is also a problem with websites such as these. In every church I have been to you are simply asked to believe Jesus is the son of God. The ministers tend to leave it up to the individual as to whether they go further than that. So who is right, the ministers to leave it at that, or some on the internet who insist you must go further than that? I like your quote from Oswald chambers -

Jesus is the SON OF GOD,that is NOT DEBATABLE. Peter says that in Matthew 16 very clearly. The demons knew Jesus is the Son of God. Scripture is very clear that Jesus is the Son of God. The question is Is Jesus Yahweh? That's a different question and that is where the confusion comes in.

And John is very clear on why he wrote his gospel

John 20

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. [SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[phil112]

Hi Sarah.

Your confusion is a common one and not at all related to your blondeness.

My understanding is basically that the pre-Incarnate Jesus was always fully God and something additional transpired at His Incarnation or when the Word became flesh.....................

So she quotes scripture and you call her confused, yet your "understanding" is not backed with scripture at all? When you call someone confused you should be looking in the mirror.

 

[oldhermit]

Jesus is the SON OF GOD,that is NOT DEBATABLE. Peter says that in Matthew 16 very clearly. The demons knew Jesus is the Son of God. Scripture is very clear that Jesus is the Son of God. The question is Is Jesus Yahweh? That's a different question and that is where the confusion comes in.

And John is very clear on why he wrote his gospel

John 20

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. [SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

I would like for you to read Isaiah 6:1-7 and then take a look at John 12:38-41 and tell me what you see.

 

[senzi]

Jesus is the SON OF GOD,that is NOT DEBATABLE. Peter says that in Matthew 16 very clearly. The demons knew Jesus is the Son of God. Scripture is very clear that Jesus is the Son of God. The question is Is Jesus Yahweh? That's a different question and that is where the confusion comes in.

And John is very clear on why he wrote his gospel

John 20

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. [SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

May I put something to you? Is it possible for Gods prescence to fully exist in Christ without him being termed God himself, but simply the son of God? Some say yes, some say no. The difference of opinion is not then in the nature or substance of Christ but in his title. And as your quote from john states. You are safe believing in the title son of God

 

[oldhermit]

May I put something to you? Is it possible for Gods prescence to fully exist in Christ without him being termed God himself, but simply the son of God? Some say yes, some say no. The difference of opinion is not then in the nature or substance of Christ but in his title. And as your quote from john states. You are safe believing in the title son of God

I refuse to waste any more of my time with you. You are not interested in learning and you are not asking honest questions like Sarah. All you are doing is stirring the pot trying to find some way to discredit the deity of Christ. I am done fooling with you.

 

[SarahM777]

I would like for you to read Isaiah 6:1-7 and then take a look at John 12:38-41 and tell me what you see.

Isaiah 6

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

[SUP]4 [/SUP]At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. [SUP]7 [/SUP]With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

John 12

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. [SUP]38 [/SUP]This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[SUP][h][/SUP]

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[SUP][i][/SUP]

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

Yes those passages are there BUT how do you reconcile those passages with these passages?

Romans 8

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.[SUP]30 [/SUP]And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Colossians 1

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Hebrews 1


1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, [SUP]2 [/SUP]but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. [SUP]3 [/SUP]The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. [SUP]4 [/SUP]So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

[h=3]The Son Superior to Angels[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[SUP][a][/SUP]?


Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[SUP][b][/SUP]?


[SUP]6 [/SUP]And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[SUP][e][/SUP]


[SUP]10 [/SUP]He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[SUP][f][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[SUP][g][/SUP]?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?


Hebrews 12


[SUP]22 [/SUP]But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, [SUP]23[/SUP]to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, [SUP]24 [/SUP]to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


So scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation,so how does that fit in there also? If God was never born and always was there then how could Jesus have always existed and yet be the first born of all of creation at the VERY SAME TIME?

 

[oldhermit]

So what you are wanting to know is how can Jesus be God and be given titles like firstborn and begotten. Is that right?

 

[senzi]

I refuse to waste any more of my time with you. You are not interested in learning and you are not asking honest questions like Sarah. All you are doing is stirring the pot trying to find some way to discredit the deity of Christ. I am done fooling with you.

Why reply to this post, it wasn't sent to you. You are just repeating what you wrote yesterday. We both agree, we are wasting our time corresponding with each other.
As fo me looking for ways to deny the deity of Christ, I have never once mentioned the word, and in my previous post stated the difference of opinion in christendom is not in the substance or nature of Christ but in his title. You seem a bit desperate to me from your above post

 

[SarahM777]

So what you are wanting to know is how can Jesus be God and be given titles like firstborn and begotten. Is that right?

That's part of it,and the other thing is either things like Jesus being able to die on one hand and be tempted by evil by virtue by being man and yet NOT being able to die and be tempted by being God on the other? HOW CAN HE DO BOTH at the same time? That is where it does end up if Jesus is God. Either it's one huge contradiction or it's one really big paradox,and BOTH can NOT be true.

 

[SarahM777]

So what you are wanting to know is how can Jesus be God and be given titles like firstborn and begotten. Is that right?

And another question is When Jesus was before Caiaphas why did he only this charge and NOT the charge of Jesus claiming to be Yahweh?

Matthew 26

[SUP]57 [/SUP]Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. [SUP]58 [/SUP]But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.
[SUP]59 [/SUP]The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. [SUP]60 [/SUP]But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward [SUP]61 [/SUP]and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
[SUP]62 [/SUP]Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” [SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
[SUP]64 [/SUP]“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]65 [/SUP]Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. [SUP]66 [/SUP]What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him [SUP]68 [/SUP]and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

Remember Caiaphas is an ISREALITE. If Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh why wasn't that the charge that Caiaphas brought? It implies they KNEW exactly what Jesus was saying. And there is nothing to indicate that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh but to be God's anointed one,the Son of God.

 

[oldhermit]

That's part of it,and the other thing is either things like Jesus being able to die on one hand and be tempted by evil by virtue by being man and yet NOT being able to die and be tempted by being God on the other? HOW CAN HE DO BOTH at the same time? That is where it does end up if Jesus is God. Either it's one huge contradiction or it's one really big paradox,and BOTH can NOT be true.

So, you think the fact that you have not been able to reconcile the two necessarily means they are contradictory. Perhaps the first place we need to start is with Phil 2. I think this will go a long way in helping to see a little bigger picture. Would this be alright with you?

 

[oldhermit]

And another question is When Jesus was before Caiaphas why did he only this charge and NOT the charge of Jesus claiming to be Yahweh?

Matthew 26

[SUP]57 [/SUP]Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. [SUP]58 [/SUP]But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.
[SUP]59 [/SUP]The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. [SUP]60 [/SUP]But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward [SUP]61 [/SUP]and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
[SUP]62 [/SUP]Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” [SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
[SUP]64 [/SUP]“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]65 [/SUP]Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. [SUP]66 [/SUP]What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him [SUP]68 [/SUP]and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

Remember Caiaphas is an ISREALITE. If Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh why wasn't that the charge that Caiaphas brought? It implies they KNEW exactly what Jesus was saying. And there is nothing to indicate that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh but to be God's anointed one,the Son of God.

The charge against Jesus was blasphemy. To the Jew, for one to claim to be the Son of God is the same thing as claiming to be God. They understood who he was claiming to be. This is how they responded to Jesus statement in John 8

 

[p_rehbein]

That's part of it,and the other thing is either things like Jesus being able to die on one hand and be tempted by evil by virtue by being man and yet NOT being able to die and be tempted by being God on the other? HOW CAN HE DO BOTH at the same time? That is where it does end up if Jesus is God. Either it's one huge contradiction or it's one really big paradox,and BOTH can NOT be true.

[my thoughts]

I see that both can be true and no paradox exists. We (man) are a triune being. Body, soul, spirit. When we die, what dies? Our earthly body? Yes. Our eternal spirit? No. We were created in His image. Our earthly bodies are not His image, for they are temporal and imperfect. He took upon Himself the form of man. Mans earthly body, yet His eternal being/spirit remained as it has always been. So when He said things like: I and my Father are one, or before Abraham was, I am, or if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.......there is no paradox........only truth.

His earthly being faced and experienced what we men do, yet He overcame all of these because of His eternal Being. And, to those that believe in Him, He dispenses the power for us to do the same. Overcome the temptations of this world.

 

[SarahM777]

The charge against Jesus was blasphemy. To the Jew, for one to claim to be the Son of God is the same thing as claiming to be God. They understood who he was claiming to be. This is how they responded to Jesus statement in John 8

John 8

[SUP]31 [/SUP]To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. [SUP]38 [/SUP]I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[SUP][c][/SUP] do what Abraham did. [SUP]40 [/SUP]As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. [SUP]41 [/SUP]You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. [SUP]44 [/SUP]You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [SUP]45 [/SUP]Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [SUP]46 [/SUP]Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? [SUP]47 [/SUP]Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

[SUP]48 [/SUP]The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
[SUP]49 [/SUP]“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. [SUP]50 [/SUP]I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
[SUP]52 [/SUP]At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [SUP]56 [/SUP]Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[SUP]57 [/SUP]“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
[SUP]58 [/SUP]“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [SUP]59 [/SUP]At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

So how do verses 40 and 42 fit in and reconcile with verse 58? Verse 58 comes after the verses that Jesus tells them He is a man who is speaking the things heard from God,He was sent by God,and was here from God.

 

[SarahM777]

[my thoughts]

I see that both can be true and no paradox exists. We (man) are a triune being. Body, soul, spirit. When we die, what dies? Our earthly body? Yes. Our eternal spirit? No. We were created in His image. Our earthly bodies are not His image, for they are temporal and imperfect. He took upon Himself the form of man. Mans earthly body, yet His eternal being/spirit remained as it has always been. So when He said things like: I and my Father are one, or before Abraham was, I am, or if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.......there is no paradox........only truth.

His earthly being faced and experienced what we men do, yet He overcame all of these because of His eternal Being. And, to those that believe in Him, He dispenses the power for us to do the same. Overcome the temptations of this world.

So where does scripture state that one can die and not die at the same time or one can be tempted and not tempted at the same time?

 

[oldhermit]

John 8

[SUP]31 [/SUP]To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. [SUP]38 [/SUP]I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[SUP][c][/SUP] do what Abraham did. [SUP]40 [/SUP]As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. [SUP]41 [/SUP]You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. [SUP]44 [/SUP]You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [SUP]45 [/SUP]Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [SUP]46 [/SUP]Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? [SUP]47 [/SUP]Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

[SUP]48 [/SUP]The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
[SUP]49 [/SUP]“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. [SUP]50 [/SUP]I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
[SUP]52 [/SUP]At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [SUP]56 [/SUP]Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[SUP]57 [/SUP]“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
[SUP]58 [/SUP]“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [SUP]59 [/SUP]At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

So how do verses 40 and 42 fit in and reconcile with verse 58? Verse 58 comes after the verses that Jesus tells them He is a man who is speaking the things heard from God,He was sent by God,and was here from God.

Yes, Jesus was man. This is by virtue of human birth. He was also SENT from God. Sent from where? He applied divine title to himself and for this the Jews sought to stone him. They knew what he was claiming and to them this was blasphemy if it was not true. They did not misunderstand the implications.

 

[oldhermit]

So where does scripture state that one can die and not die at the same time or one can be tempted and not tempted at the same time?

If you will look at Phil 2 with me I can help you to understand this.

 

[SarahM777]

If you will look at Phil 2 with me I can help you to understand this.

Philippians 2

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, [SUP]2 [/SUP]then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, [SUP]4 [/SUP]not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in very nature[SUP][a][/SUP] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[SUP][b][/SUP] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

[SUP]9[/SUP]Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Yes Paul does say that Jesus BEING IN THE NATURE of God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[SUP][b][/SUP] of a servant,being made in human likeness.

Verses 6 and 7 can possibly mean this

1. Philippians 2:6 Or in the form of
2. Philippians 2:7 Or the form
   

But Paul goes on to say GOD EXALTED HIM to the highest place. Paul does not directly say that Jesus is God. I can see how it can be taken by inference but not by any direct clear teaching by Paul on it.