POLL: The Deity of Christ

Elin · Jun 19, 2015

God's "presence" doesn't "exist" in Christ.

The fullness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form in Christ. . .he is fully God and fully man (Col 2:9).

Wrong. . .Col 1:19, 2:9 state the fully divine nature of Christ and the fully human (bodily) nature of Christ.

Elin · Jun 19, 2015

senzi said:

So one has to use the word "deity" to in fact deny the deity of Christ,
or to use the word "deny" to in fact deny something?

How ignorant do you think people are?

oldhermit · Jun 19, 2015

SarahM777 said:

No because of how John illustrates the Word throughout the rest of his prologue. We are getting away from Phil 2 and I would like to finish Phil and then we will look at John 1 and then Hebrews 1. I know you have a lot of questions but many of these questions will be answered as we move along.

Emptying of Form

In order for Jesus to fulfill his redemptive mission, he must first assume a fleshly posture. We can find at least four reasons for this in scripture. 1) Divine essence cannot die. As man he will die. 2) The requirements of the Law of Moses required a sacrifice of flesh and blood. Divine essence is not made of flesh and blood. 3) His heritage must come from a specific fleshly linage. As God, he has no linage. 4) The demands of the Law were imposed upon man and it required that man fulfill them. The Law required not only that man fulfill its demands but that only a man of the seed of Abraham to whom the Law was given. Thus, a Gentile could never have satisfied the demands of the Law, Romans 1:1-5.

Fulfilling the function of a sacrifice required that he assume the form of a sacrifice. In this metamorphosis, he poured out of himself every expression of deity. Divine essence is now submitted to limitations. As God, these characteristics of essence are, by their very nature, without boundaries or limitations, but as man, he will be subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that limit all men. Divine character is now submitted to vulnerability. As God, he cannot be tempted, but as man, he yields his divine character to the onslaught of Satan. He becomes the second Adam. He exposes his own moral integrity to the same temptations that are common to all men, Hebrews 2:18, 4:15, and 5:2. Yet, unlike Adam, he maintains his integrity all the way to the cross, Hebrews 4:15 and 2:9. He succeeds where Adam failed. He simply never sinned.

Emptying of Equality

The word “ἴ” is nominative and accusative plural neuter of “ἴ” which suggests equality in quantity or quality, (Thayer's p 307). This is the same language used by Jesus in Matthew 20:12. Here, Jesus relates the parable of the workers in the vineyard. The accusation by those who had labored all day was that the Master was unjust because in giving equal wages to those who had worked fewer hours than they had worked he had granted them “ ἴ”equal status. Paul now uses this same word to express the nature of Jesus’ divine status. He is equal to God. “ἁὸ” is the act of seizing, robbery, Thayer's p 74. Note beneit is his equality with God that Jesus did not regard as robbery to possess. He did not gain his divine equality by an act of seizure or robbery. This equality is his by right of divine essence.

The Form of a Servant

Taking the form of a servant is an exchange of ῇ/ nature. He exchanged the essence of God for the essence of man. Spirit clothes itself with flesh, John 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:14 and 10:5-10. This is much more than just a transformation from spirit to flesh. Every attribute that defined him as God will either be submitted to limitations or subjected to vulnerability. Omnipotence yields itself to dependency. The all-sufficient one now becomes fully dependent, Isaiah 12:2, John 5:30 and Matthew 4:1-10. How can we envision the Creator of the universe emptying himself of all power and submitting as an infant into the care of frail, week, virtually helpless man? How can man care for God? To do this would require an absolute dependency upon God for his safekeeping as he grows to manhood. He became subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that are part of all human existence. Omniscience gives way to revelation. He must learn God’s will as a man and submit to it, Hebrews 10:7, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49-50 and 17-4. Omnipresence confines itself to the limitations of time and space. His Eternal nature is surrendered for mortality - he became subject to death. The transcendent One became an equal among his fleshly brethren, Hebrews 2:17. The unified One became the cursed of God, Mark 15:34, Galatians 3:13 and 2Corinthians 5:21. The unchanging One became subject to change. He not only changes form but his fleshly form will also be subject to all of the changes of natural biological processes.

Elin · Jun 19, 2015

senzi said:

So how much did you love the one you stole from?

SolidGround · Jun 19, 2015

Old Hermit, I will get back on track with our previous conversation tomorrow. Had a very full day, and that discussion is very heavy.

As for SarahM,
I am also leaning towards Adoptionism, while maintaining the virgin birth, the fact that He was Chosen, and the indwelling of God within Jesus.
I believe that His claims of Godhood pre-ascension are spoken through the Spirit, and are both prophetic and yet an instant reality by His obedience.

By using the term "chosen" in reference to Jesus Christ, I don't believe there is any other way to understand it.
He was not born a mere man... but also truly was born as a man,
but with the Spirit of God rather than the spirit of a mere man.

By being perfectly Godly, and having the Spirit, nothing separated Him from God except flesh, which was shed and overcome in His death and Resurrection. Thus, He is the first-born of the Resurrection.

In this, we have Jesus being born of the Word (Ruach; Breath; Pneuma; Spirit) of God,
which is the humility of Christ, who is the Word,
And that man becoming Christ, as was preordained and prophesied,
and Christ returning to Glory.

flob · Jun 19, 2015

To the contrary, the New Testament IS the authority:
is it an ancient recipe for pancakes?
The oil is the Spirit, both in Old and New, as quoted to you.
Jesus Christ's humanity is the fine flour, unleavened.
The New Testament even tells you what leaven is.

To the contrary:
Father, Son, and Spirit abide in One Another,
yet are still distinct Persons.

To the contrary:
The Son said He was in the Father on earth.
"The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" John 10:38.
And on earth His Father told Him what to say.
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works" 14:10.
(Cf "The Spirit of reality...will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak...He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you" 16:13-14.)

Father, Son, and Spirit are present in the humanity and the body of Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man.
"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell...For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
To the contrary of your error:
"In Him dwells all...In Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell" Colossians 2:9; 1:19.
"The Father who abides in Me" John 14:10.
"Jesus full of the Holy Spirit" Luke 4:1.
"The Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him" Matthew 3:16.
"Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul has found delight. I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will announce justice to the Gentiles" Matthew 16:18, quoting Isaiah.
"The Holy Spirit descended in bodily form as a dove upon Him" Luke 3:22.
"I go...I am coming...My Father...henceforth you know Him and have seen Him...He who has seen Me has seen the Father...I am in the Father and the Father is in Me...I will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, even the Spirit of reality...you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you...I am coming to you...In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you...Me...and My Father...We will come to him and make an abode with him"
John 14:3-23.
"He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit" 20:22.

The "seed" in 1 John 3:9 is the Spirit who is the Son.
"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit" 4:13.
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" 5:12.
"The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" 1 Corinthians 15:45.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" 2 Corinthians 3:17.

"We will come to him and make an abode with him" John 14:23.
"As You Father are in Me and I in you, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me...
I in them and You in Me" 17:21-23.
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you [disciples] in Me, and I in you" 14:20.
"One Body and One Spirit...One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" Ephesians 4:4-6.

To the contrary of this gross error:
"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell...For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
Colossians 1:19; 2:9.
"The Father who abides in Me" 14:10.
"As You Father are in Me and I in you" 17:21.
"I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me" 8:16.
"Come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father" 10:38.
"Jesus full of the Holy Spirit" Luke 4:1.
"In that hour He exulted in the Holy Spirit" 10:21.
"He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for He gives the Spirit" John 3:34.
"The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" 1 Corinthians 15:45.
"That which has been begotten in [Mary] is of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 1:20.

Unless?...............what do you mean Elin, by your phrase: "the spirit Trinity"?
Since you mention text and Scripture, is "the spirit Trinity" a Scriptural phrase?
If so, where is it located?

I think I asked you my same question before:
How do those 2 things contradict?
How does 'Eternally Begotten' contradict 'Dwelling In'?
Can not.........................both be true?
If not....................why not?
Thanks

SolidGround · Jun 19, 2015

*becoming Christ, though already Christ, in the timeless sense of God*

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

Elin said:

Your understanding is poor.

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

So in your opinion christians are only conscious of two sins in their lives? You fail to grasp the covenant

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

Elin said:

Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him
Prov12:26

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

Elin said:

Ex 23;20-23, Isaiah 63:9, 1,cor 10:4

Your sentance is ridiculous. There is nothing to be gained in replying to anymore of your posts.

SarahM777 · Jun 20, 2015

oldhermit said:

I get your 4 points here

oldhermit said:

But Paul continues on in Philippians 2 and says this also

Philippians 2

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So why does Paul say what he says in verse 9? Verse 9 clearly says God exalted him to the highest place. If Jesus is God how can Jesus be exalted to the highest place because God is ALREADY in the highest place? How do we reconcile verses 9-11 to verses 6-8?

And how does one reconcile this passage to what you are saying above?

1 Corinthians 15

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he “has put everything under his feet.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

oldhermit · Jun 20, 2015

SarahM777 said:

Yes, the Father did exalt him. Jesus emptied himself divine form and humbled himself to take on the form of man to fulfill the redemptive function. The Father the exalts him and restores to him the that which he had emptied out of himself to became man. Empty is the verb that defines the action. Equal is an adjective that defines his nature. Equality is a noun that tells what was emptied out. This is not a passive action. This is self-actuating. No one did this to him. He is the one who does the emptying. What he empties out of himself is both equality with God and divine nature. He must possess these qualities intrinsically in order to empty them out of himself.In keeping with the posture of a ύs - servant / slave, Paul says that he did nothing through selfishness; that he did not seek his own glory but regarded others more important than himself. He placed the needs of others above his own. He emptied himself. The servant reserves nothing of himself. He stands stripped of all personal will. All has become completely subjected. This is total surrender of control. Now, he is in the likeness of man. In the beginning, God, this God, created man in his own image, according to his own likeness. Now, this same God steps out of eternity into time to be made in the image of his creation - man. The Creator becomes the creature. The Lord of all becomes the servant of all. The Governor of the universe becomes subordinate to another and all of this by his own will.

Humility is not foreign to the character of man but rather intrinsic to it. Humility is demonstrated by obedience that characterized the life and ministry of the Lord. He “became obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” ‘Became’ suggests a change of status. Before assuming the posture of a man, he is not subject to deity as a subordinate creature or even as a lesser member of the triadic unity. This is a process of character development as a man, Matthew 26:52-54. He must learn obedience to the will of God as a man, completely subject to the will of the Father, Hebrews 5:8-9. He did not allow his status as Son of God to exempt him from the obligation of obedience. What then did he learn about obedience? Gerald Paden of the Sunset International Bible Institute suggests there are at least eight things that scripture reveals about this learning process.
1. He learned its duty - Even though he was a son - This is the duty of sonship.
2. He learned its necessity - The cup cannot pass unless he drinks it.
3. He learned its demand - All that I am and all that I have – This is total
consecration.
4. He learned its cost - For a time, it cost him even heaven itself. In the end, even
his human life.
5. He learned its integrity - He kept the law of God all the way to the cross.
6. He learned its honor - He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey.
7. He learned its reward - He was highly exalted and given a name that is above
every name. Because he learned all these things, he is now able to lay hold of
the reward of obedience.
8. “Even death on the cross.” This is the last, greatest act of humility. It is the
culmination of everything in the purpose of God to redeem man back to himself.
This is the last full measure of devotion for loves sake. He does not even
consider equality with man a thing to hold on to. He even pours himself out to
become the cursed of the cursed, Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy 21:23.

Enthroned and Glorified, Philippians 2:9-11

A. “Therefore” (because he humbled himself) God highly exalted him, 9.
1. 1Peter 3:22 - “Gone into heaven...” Acts 2:34
2. Ephesians 1:20 - “Seated at God’s right hand in the heavenly places”
3. Hebrews 1:3 - “Sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
4. Daniel 7:13-14 - “Ascended to the Ancient of Days.”
B. “Given a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every
knee shall bow,” 9-10 and Romans 14:11 - “Every knee shall bow and
confess that Jesus is Lord / Jehovah,” Isaiah45:23.

Next we will look at Heb 1 to see how this glorification too place and what all was involved.

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

Paul clearly states at a time in the future, when all has been defeated including the last enemy death Christ WILL be made subject to the father

SarahM777 · Jun 20, 2015

oldhermit said:

Yes, the Father did exalt him. Jesus emptied himself divine form and humbled himself to take on the form of man to fulfill the redemptive function. The Father the exalts him and restores to him the that which he had emptied out of himself to became man. Empty is the verb that defines the action. Equal is an adjective that defines his nature. Equality is a noun that tells what was emptied out. This is not a passive action. This is self-actuating. No one did this to him. He is the one who does the emptying. What he empties out of himself is both equality with God and divine nature. He must possess these qualities intrinsically in order to empty them out of himself.In keeping with the posture of a ύs - servant / slave, Paul says that he did nothing through selfishness; that he did not seek his own glory but regarded others more important than himself. He placed the needs of others above his own. He emptied himself. The servant reserves nothing of himself. He stands stripped of all personal will. All has become completely subjected. This is total surrender of control. Now, he is in the likeness of man. In the beginning, God, this God, created man in his own image, according to his own likeness. Now, this same God steps out of eternity into time to be made in the image of his creation - man. The Creator becomes the creature. The Lord of all becomes the servant of all. The Governor of the universe becomes subordinate to another and all of this by his own will.

Humility is not foreign to the character of man but rather intrinsic to it. Humility is demonstrated by obedience that characterized the life and ministry of the Lord. He “became obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” ‘Became’ suggests a change of status. Before assuming the posture of a man, he is not subject to deity as a subordinate creature or even as a lesser member of the triadic unity. This is a process of character development as a man, Matthew 26:52-54. He must learn obedience to the will of God as a man, completely subject to the will of the Father, Hebrews 5:8-9. He did not allow his status as Son of God to exempt him from the obligation of obedience. What then did he learn about obedience? Gerald Paden of the Sunset International Bible Institute suggests there are at least eight things that scripture reveals about this learning process.
1. He learned its duty - Even though he was a son - This is the duty of sonship.
2. He learned its necessity - The cup cannot pass unless he drinks it.
3. He learned its demand - All that I am and all that I have – This is total
consecration.
4. He learned its cost - For a time, it cost him even heaven itself. In the end, even
his human life.
5. He learned its integrity - He kept the law of God all the way to the cross.
6. He learned its honor - He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey.
7. He learned its reward - He was highly exalted and given a name that is above
every name. Because he learned all these things, he is now able to lay hold of
the reward of obedience.
8. “Even death on the cross.” This is the last, greatest act of humility. It is the
culmination of everything in the purpose of God to redeem man back to himself.
This is the last full measure of devotion for loves sake. He does not even
consider equality with man a thing to hold on to. He even pours himself out to
become the cursed of the cursed, Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy 21:23.

Enthroned and Glorified, Philippians 2:9-11

A. “Therefore” (because he humbled himself) God highly exalted him, 9.
1. 1Peter 3:22 - “Gone into heaven...” Acts 2:34
2. Ephesians 1:20 - “Seated at God’s right hand in the heavenly places”
3. Hebrews 1:3 - “Sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
4. Daniel 7:13-14 - “Ascended to the Ancient of Days.”
B. “Given a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every
knee shall bow,” 9-10 and Romans 14:11 - “Every knee shall bow and
confess that Jesus is Lord / Jehovah,” Isaiah45:23.

Next we will look at Heb 1 to see how this glorification too place and what all was involved.

What it boils to is HOW does Jesus have a divine nature is it by virtue of Jesus being God Himself or is it be virtue of Jesus being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God? And what does that mean to be the only begotten Son of God? Does being begotten actually make Jesus Yahweh Himself?

Why does Paul seem to make a clear distinction in those passages between God and Christ? Paul clearly says God exalted Him in Philippians 2 and does NOT SAY GOD THE FATHER exalted Him.

1 Corinthians says this

Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

How is Jesus co-equal if Jesus the Son of God is made subject to God?

SarahM777 · Jun 20, 2015

Oldhermit

I do want to thank you for taking the time to help me through this. (And I do want to thank you for keeping this civil,a lot of times that does NOT happen with these type of threads)

SarahM777 · Jun 20, 2015

SarahM777 said:

What it boils to is HOW does Jesus have a divine nature is it by virtue of Jesus being God Himself or is it be virtue of Jesus being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God? And what does that mean to be the only begotten Son of God? Does being begotten actually make Jesus Yahweh Himself?

Why does Paul seem to make a clear distinction in those passages between God and Christ? Paul clearly says God exalted Him in Philippians 2 and does NOT SAY GOD THE FATHER exalted Him.

1 Corinthians says this

Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

How is Jesus co-equal if Jesus the Son of God is made subject to God?

And to take it further if Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth,can that mean that Jesus was given the authority to create all things through the power of God and not through Jesus own power?

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

The power of God on this earth is the Holy Spirit and the words of God spoken by the OT prophets were spoken when the spirit came upon The holy spirit descended on Christ in bodily shape/form at his baptism. Christ was led of the holy spirit, and lived in the power of the holy spirit Luke 4:1&14. The miracles Christ performed were also by the power of the holy spirit. And Christ spoke the words of God for the spirit was on him without limit john3:34

oldhermit · Jun 20, 2015

SarahM777 said:

The term begotten one or only begotten must understood according to its intended meaning and inspired application.
Hebrews 1:5 - Jesus is the SON of GOD. “You are My Son; today I have begotten you.” This is a quote from Psalms 2:7 which finds its fulfillment in Jesus. The Psalmist presents Jesus as God's appointed King whom he has installed upon the holy hill of Zion. Just as the Psalmist said, Jesus would be inaugurated to heaven's throne even in the midst of great resistance The nations conspire against him. The people plot in vain. The kings of earth and the rulers take their stand against the Lord's anointed but, with all their combined power they cannot rob Christ of his throne. The rejected him, scorned him, crucified him, and put him in a sealed tomb. In Acts 2:22-36 Peter binds the fact that Jesus is the heir of David's throne and that God has raised him, set him at his right hand, made him to rule over his enemies, and made him both Lord and Christ – Anointed ruler. He now stands as King over all king and Lord over all Lords, Revelation 19:16.

1. It is his designation as “SON” which distinguishes him from the angels.
a. SON – Υἱός – is most often used to define the nature, actions, or character of a person as in Mark 3:17 where Jesus calls James and John “sons - υἱοὶ - of thunder;” Not because they were literally the offsprings of a natural phenomenon but, because of their violent and explosive nature. In Matthew 23:15, Jesus calls the Pharisees the υἱοὶ of hell because their character reflected the nature of darkness. Jesus, who is the υἱὸν θεοῦ – Son of God, bears the same nature, action, and moral character of God.
b. Jesus is God, not only by nature but also by promise – 2 Samuel 7:14, by decree – Psalms 2:7, and by resurrection – Acts 13:33.
c. By nature, angels are creature, not creator. They were created by him and for his purposes, Colossians 1:16. They are HIS angels, 7.

2. He is “begotten” of God. “Today I have begotten you.”
a. “Today” is considered by many scholars and commentators to refer to what is called “the eternal generation of the Son" and his eternal sonship and cannot in any way speak of his humanity. Origen, believed that “today” is that timeless ever-present, eternal day which Christ inhabits. That since time has no boundries with God, it is thus always “today.” While Jesus is indeed the eternal self-existing One without beginning and without end, this is not the point made by the Hebrew writer in verse five. The context of verse five is not to establish the eternal existence of Jesus but to declare through the Psalmist the enthronement of Zion's King. “Today” does not speak of Jesus timeless, eternal existence but points to a definitive point in linear time. Verse five is not presenting Jesus as God in eternity but as man in his mediatorial role. A.W. Pink in his “Exposition of Hebrews” pp. 50-51 properly regards “today” as a fixed point in linear time but then misapplies the point of time. Pink points to the virgin birth as the “today” in which Jesus was called begotten. He then appeals to Luke 2:11 which reads “Unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior which is Christ the Lord.” But, as in all cases, it behooves us to allow scripture to interpret its own terminology. In Acts 13:31-38, Paul addresses the Jewish officials in the synagogue of Pisidian Antioch and shows that Jesus is the divinely appointed King who is David's heir to the throne. The fact that Jesus is raised from the dead is the fulfillment of Psalms 2:7, “Today I have begotten you.” So, “today,” according to Paul's inspired interpretation, refers not to Jesus' eternal sonship, not to his incarnation but, to his resurrection from the dead. “God has fulfilled this...in that he RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD as it also says in the second Psalm 'Today I have begotten you.'” If Paul confirms “today” as the specific point in time this renders all other interpretations to the contrary null and void. “Today,” in the context of Hebrew chapter one points to the four temporal indicators which overturn all other speculations about the understanding of the term “today.” After Jesus accomplished all these things by means of his death, burial, and resurrection, the declaration is made by the Father, “You are my Son, Today have I begotten you.”
b. “Begotten”- γεγέννηκά – a metaphor meaning to engender, to cause to rise. As we saw in our exposition of the word “today,” this refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Jesus is not begotten by virtue of creation but by virtue of his victory over sin and death.

Granted. Do you think it makes a difference whether it says God or Father?

This is a passage I have struggled with a great deal. Not just in the question of Jesus being eternal subjected to the Father but a number of other things as well.

senzi · Jun 20, 2015

Jesus told his disciples all power and authority had been given to him matt 28:18 He reigns now in Heaven and on earth for everything has been put under his feet by the father.
When all has been defeated, including the last enemy death Paul states
Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the father and he will be made subject to him who put everything under him and God will be all in all

oldhermit · Jun 20, 2015

SarahM777 said:

Jesus is and always has been the Creator of ALL things.

POLL: The Deity of Christ

The Deity of Christ?

YES

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