POLL: The Deity of Christ

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The Deity of Christ?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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Elin said:
We have no authorization in the NT for the mingling of flour and oil as a type of Jesus' "mingling" with the Holy Spirit.
To the contrary, the New Testament IS the authority:
is it an ancient recipe for pancakes?
The oil is the Spirit, both in Old and New, as quoted to you.
Non-responsive. . .that's you talking, not Scripture.

Scripture does not state that the Holy Spirit is oil.
Oil is only a representation of the Spirit, it is not the Spirit.

You're going to have to decide if the persons of the Trinity are "distinct," or "mixed" as you propose
in the mingling of flour and oil.

They can't be both.


Jeus Christ's humanity is the fine flour, unleavened.
The New Testament even tells you what leaven is.
That's you talking. . .not Scripture.

Jesus is the Bread of Life, not flour.
And their daily bread was leavened.

You're going to have to decide if the persons of the Trinity are "distinct" or "mixed,"
they can't be both
.
To the contrary:
Father, Son, and Spirit abide in One Another,
yet are still distinct Persons.
Non responsive. . .previously addressed.

"Abide in" and "indwell" are not used of God the Father and God the Son in the NT's original language.
That's you talking. . .not Scripture.

No text states "abide in" nor "indwell" regarding the spirit Trinity.
Scripture does not state the spirit Trinity "indwells" or "abides in" one another.
they do not state "indwell" nor "abide in" within the spirit Trinity.
To the contrary:
The Son said He was in the Father on earth.
"The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" John 10:38.
And on earth His Father told Him what to say.
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me?
Previously addressed. . .

As the "oneness" of the Trinity does not mean their "sameness," for the persons are not the same person, so "in" does not mean their "location," it refers to their "oneness" (Jn 10:38) which has been previously discussed.


The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works" 14:10.
Non-responsive. . .previously addressed, above.

You need a better translation.

(Cf "The Spirit of reality...will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak...He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you" 16:13-14.)
There is no "The Spirit of reality" in the NT language.

You need a better translation.

Father, Son, and Spirit are present in the humanity and the body of Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man.
"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell...For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
To the contrary of your error:
"In Him dwells all...In Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell" Colossians 2:9; 1:19.
"The Father who abides in Me" John 14:10.
"Jesus full of the Holy Spirit" Luke 4:1.
"The Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him" Matthew 3:16.
"Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul has found delight. I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will announce justice to the Gentiles" Matthew 16:18, quoting Isaiah.
"The Holy Spirit descended in bodily form as a dove upon Him" Luke 3:22.
"I go...I am coming...My Father...henceforth you know Him and have seen Him...He who has seen Me has seen the Father...I am in the Father and the Father is in Me...I will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, even the Spirit of reality...you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you...I am coming to you...In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you...Me...and My Father...We will come to him and make an abode with him"
John 14:3-23.
"He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit" 20:22.
"He breathed on them."

You need a better translation. . .are you using the ESV?

The "seed" in 1 John 3:9 is the Spirit who is the Son.
"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit" 4:13.
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" 5:12.
"The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" 1 Corinthians 15:45.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" 2 Corinthians 3:17.

"We will come to him and make an abode with him" John 14:23.
"As You Father are in Me and I in you, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me...
I in them and You in Me" 17:21-23.
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you [disciples] in Me, and I in you" 14:20.
"One Body and One Spirit...One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" Ephesians 4:4-6.

To the contrary of this gross error:
"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell...For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
Colossians 1:19; 2:9.
"The Father who abides in Me" 14:10.
"As You Father are in Me and I in you" 17:21.
"I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me" 8:16.
"Come to know and continue to know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father" 10:38.
"Jesus full of the Holy Spirit" Luke 4:1.
"In that hour He exulted in the Holy Spirit" 10:21.
"He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for He gives the Spirit" John 3:34.
"The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" 1 Corinthians 15:45.
"That which has been begotten in [Mary] is of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 1:20.
Non-responsive. . .

Previously addressed. . .review the record.

Unless?...............what do you mean Elin, by your phrase: "the spirit Trinity"?
Since you mention text and Scripture, is "the spirit Trinity" a Scriptural phrase?
If so, where is it located?
The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

I think I asked you my same question before:
How do those 2 things contradict?
How does 'Eternally Begotten' contradict 'Dwelling In'?
Can not.........................both be true?
If not....................why not?
Thanks
Previously addfressed.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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Your understanding is poor.

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

So in your opinion christians are only conscious of two sins in their lives? You fail to grasp the covenant
"Tis you who does not understood what love means, and who disagrees with Jesus in Mt 22:40.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Ex 23;20-23, Isaiah 63:9, 1,cor 10:4

Your sentance is ridiculous. There is nothing to be gained in replying to anymore of your posts.
I support your decision. . .
 
S

senzi

Guest
"Tis you who does not understood what love means, and who disagrees with Jesus in Mt 22:40.
You will never understand much of the covenant for you reply on your academic mind to learn. No one disputes we are to love God and our neighbour, on that the law hangs. However, every christian I have ever known is conscious of their particular sins. This is only possible if the law that relates to is written on their minds and placed on their hearts by the spirit. But I understand it is not possible for you to admit your error.

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Paul clearly states at a time in the future, when all has been defeated including the last enemy death
Christ WILL be made subject to the father
God the Son has always been subject to God the Father.

Jesus will reign over the kingdom until he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power, at which time he will turn over the kingdom to God the Father.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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The power of God on this earth is the Holy Spirit and the words of God spoken by the OT prophets were spoken when the spirit came upon The holy spirit descended on Christ in bodily shape/form at his baptism. Christ was led of the holy spirit, and lived in the power of the holy spirit Luke 4:1&14. The miracles Christ performed were also by the power of the holy spirit. And Christ spoke the words of God for the spirit was on him without limit john3:34
Yes, we have the man, Jesus who is God the Son, and in whom God operates according to his human nature.
 
S

senzi

Guest
God the Son has always been subject to God the Father.

.
Then the son himself WILL be made subject to him who put everything under him and God will be all in all

In your opinion, in which way WILL Christ be made subject to God at a time in the future that is yet to come?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Jesus told his disciples all power and authority had been given to him matt 28:18 He reigns now in Heaven and on earth for everything has been put under his feet by the father.
When all has been defeated, including the last enemy death Paul states
Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the father and
he will be made subject to him who put everything under him
and God will be all in all
Yes, administratively, after Jesus subjects all things to his power, he will then turn the kingdom over to God the Father, the administrative head.
The Son is in no way inferior to the Father. All three persons of the trinity are equal in deity and dignity. The subordination is one of function.

The order of function is:
The Father wills and commands the plan.
The Son executes the plan.
The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the plan.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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You will never understand much of the covenant for you reply on your academic mind to learn. No one disputes we are to love God and our neighbour, on that the law hangs. However, every christian I have ever known is conscious of their particular sins. This is only possible if the law that relates to is written on their minds and placed on their hearts by the spirit. But I understand it is not possible for you to admit your error.

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
That's the promise of the new covenant, and the new covenant law of Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10.
 
S

senzi

Guest
Yes, administratively, after Jesus subjects all things to his power, he will then turn the kingdom over to God the Father, the administrative head.
The Son is in no way inferior to the Father. All three persons of the trinity are equal in deity and dignity. The subordination is one of function.

The order of function is:
The Father wills and commands the plan.
The Son executes the plan.
The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the planQUOTE]

Surely you believe in the economic sense of trinity Christ is now and always has been subject to the father, but in the ontological sense he is not, not, nor ever has been, nor ever will be subject to the father. Therefore, in what way do you believe Christ Will become subject to the father at a time yet to come when all is defeated including the last enemy death?
 
F

flob

Guest
that's you talking, not Scripture.
Scripture does not state that the Holy Spirit is oil.
Oil is only a representation of the Spirit, it is not the Spirit.
riiight. represents oil.






You're going to have to decide if the persons of the Trinity are "distinct," or "mixed" as you propose
in the mingling of flour and oil. They can't be both.
To the contrary:
They're 3 in 1.
Distinct, but not separate.





Jesus is the Bread of Life, not flour.
Think real hard, what bread's made of.
Leviticus 4:2 may be able to help you.






And their daily bread was leavened.
Your boasting's not good. Don't you know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened; for our Passover, Christ, also has been sacrificed.
1 Corinthians 5:6-7.

Him who did not know sin... 2 Corinthians 5:21.



"Abide in" and "indwell" are not used of God the Father and God the Son in the NT's original language.
That's you talking. . .not Scripture.
To the contrary:
'parameno,' abides, is in John 14:10.
The Father who abides in Me.
Likewise: 'katoikeo,' dwells in, is in Colossians 2:9.
The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily.







As the "oneness" of the Trinity does not mean their "sameness," for the persons are not the same person,

They are distinct persons.





so "in" does not mean their "location," it refers to their "oneness" (Jn 10:38)
They are one because They are located in One Another.
John 10:38, The Father is in Me and I am in the Father, does not mean that the Father is not in the Son
and the Son is not in the Father.








You need a better translation.
Likewise.
Have you posted-out here, what your translation of John 14:10 and Colossians 1:19; 2:9 is?
If it's not too much work, feel welcome to do it afresh.






There is no "The Spirit of reality" in the NT language.
You need a better translation.
To the contrary:
What is the truth if not reality? Do you have some other truth in mind? If so, what?
'Reality' is a perfectly adequate English word for 'aletheuo,' as in John 14:17.
How might you find the word 'truth' a better word or synonym?
Do you, Elin, think that reality and truth are even related?
Last: are you one of the 'KJV-only' believers or readers?
Except maybe in your case it's not KJV, necessarily, but 'Elin's translation-only'?




"He breathed on them."
You need a better translation. . .are you using the ESV?
Likewise:
you need a better translation, or simply to read and study (and pray) more.
The particular aspect of the Holy Spirit CLOTHING, or coming upon, the saints,
is in Acts 2 with the 'mighty wind' at Pentecost. The particular aspect of the Spirit
entering inside the believers is in John 20:22. One is likened to breath, the other to
the mighty wind. Of course they're related, but one is inward, the other is outward.
No, I don't use the ESV. Is that what you recommend?
In any case, you miss the point about my quotation of John 20:22. Which was that
the Spirit emanated and issued from the being, and from within the being, of the Son of God.
So much so that Paul, in his letters to Corinth, wrote that
The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit,
and that the Lord is the Spirit.





The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
Is it your thought, then, since you use it, that you may use nonbiblical words to express the Bible,
but that others should not?






Non-responsive. . .
Yes, if you cannot respond to the word of God, I cannot expect you to get much light from me.
But I'm happy to pray that you do (and me too) respond to the Lord Jesus Christ
 
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S

senzi

Guest
That's the promise of the new covenant, and the new covenant law of Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10.
Under the old covenant the law hung on love God love your neighbour, but the whole law still existed. The law hangs on the same mow, and as previously the law God desires a christian to keep, but it has been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts.That law is followed by in our hearts trusting Christ, in the power of the holy spirit, as we love others. Therefore all we need is faith working through love
 
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S

senzi

Guest
No such statement exists in the OT.
Jesus lived under the old covenant. In relation to the law he said it hung on love God and love your neighbour. If you kept those two you would find yourself keeping the others.
To be clear, do you not believe obedience to the law under the old covenant hung on love God and love your neighbour?
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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Yes, administratively, after Jesus subjects all things to his power, he will then turn the kingdom over to God the Father, the administrative head.
The Son is in no way inferior to the Father.
All three persons of the trinity are equal in deity and dignity.
The subordination is one of function.

The order of function is:
The Father wills and commands the plan.
The Son executes the plan.
The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the plan.
Surely you believe in the economic sense of trinity
Christ is now and always has been subject to the father, but
in the ontological sense he is not, not, nor ever has been, nor ever will be subject to the father.
Addressed above. . .

In the ontological function,
God the Son is subject to God the Father (Jn 4:34, 5:23, 36, 43, 10:25, 12:49-50, 14:24, 17:14).
God the Holy Spirit is subject to God the Father and God the Son (Jn 15:26, 16:7).
God the Father is subject to neither God the Son nor God the Holy Spirit.

The Son does the will of the Father,
and the Holy Spirit does the will of the Father and the Son.
All are equals--in their nature, in their origin, in their work, in their power.

Therefore, in what way do you believe Christ Will become subject to the father at a time yet to come when all is defeated including the last enemy death?
Addressed above. . .
 
S

senzi

Guest
Addressed above. . .

In the ontological function,
God the Son is subject to God the father.
This is a view I have never heard before. It will be interesting to see if anyone else agrees with you that in the ontological sense of trinity Christ is subject to the father-that is in his nature.
I have no other comment to make as you did not answer the question in the post you responded to
 
Jan 19, 2013
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They're 3 in 1.
Distinct, but not separate
.
Then they aren't mingled as you propose, as are the flour and the oil of the OT.

Think real hard, what bread's made of.
Leviticus 4:2 may be able to help you.

Your boasting's not good. Don't you know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened; for our Passover, Christ, also has been sacrificed.
1 Corinthians 5:6-7.

Him who did not know sin... 2 Corinthians 5:21.
Non-responsive. . .

God the Holy Spirit is not mingled/mixed with God the Son.

To the contrary:
'parameno,' abides, is in John 14:10.
The Father who abides in Me.
Good job. . .I stand corrected.

However, para-meno is not in Jn 14:10.

Meno is, which is also "remain," "abide," "dwell."

Likewise: 'katoikeo,' dwells in, is in Colossians 2:9.
The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily.

They are one because They are located in One Another.
John 10:38, The Father is in Me and I am in the Father,
Not only Jesus, but us also (1Jn 4:13, 15).

These refer to the man, Jesus, the Son of God.

Have you posted-out here, what your translation of John 14:10
"lives continually," "remains', "abides," "dwells" are all good words for Jn 14:10--meno.

and Colossians 1:19; 2:9 is?
If it's not too much work, feel welcome to do it afresh.
Col 2:9 - Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Col 1:19 - Jesus is deity.

God is likewise in believers (1Jn 4:13, 15), but not in his fullness.

There is no "The Spirit of reality" in the NT language.
You need a better translation.
To the contrary:
What is the truth if not reality?
Jesus is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."
He is not the Way, the Reality and the Life.

Do you have some other truth in mind? If so, what?
'Reality' is a perfectly adequate English word for 'aletheuo,' as in John 14:17.
Nope. . .the word "reality" is not even in the Bible.

And the word in Jn 14:17 is alethia, not aletheuo.

How might you find the word 'truth' a better word or synonym?
Do you, Elin, think that reality and truth are even related?
You are in no position to add to, or improve upon, the Biblical language.

Last: are you one of the 'KJV-only' believers or readers?
No.

No, I don't use the ESV. Is that what you recommend?
No. . .too many deviations.

In any case, you miss the point about my quotation of John 20:22. Which was that
the Spirit emanated and issued from the being, and from within the being, of the Son of God.
So much so that Paul, in his letters to Corinth, wrote that
The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit,
and that the Lord is the Spirit.
My point exactly. . .

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
Is it your thought, then, since you use it, that
you may use nonbiblical words to express the Bible,
but that others should not
?
The word "sovereignty" is also not in the Bible, but it is everywhere taught there (Da 4:25),
as is "Trinity."
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,837
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What it boils to is HOW does Jesus have a divine nature is it by virtue of Jesus being God Himself or is it be virtue of Jesus being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God? And what does that mean to be the only begotten Son of God?
I think "begotten" is referring to the fact that every other "son" (humanity; angels) was *created* by God...so the term "son" is used very very loosely for we and angels. But none of those "sons" are from the very bosom of the Father, except for one. Christ. None of them proceed from the father's essence except for Christ.

The shadow/earthly example we were given of this spiritual reality, I feel, is found in the siring by a father of his son (or daughter). Yet this example is limiting due to biology and the fact that we have to create our children...but the principle *relationship* is still there.

A son (or daughter) proceeds from their father's essence. Before we exist, we are in our father's body existing as part of him. (Scripture attests to children as "seeds within" their forefathers prior to birth.) Then that father's essence passes into fertile ground (a womb) and we exist; separate from our father, but essentially of his very essence. Now we know as far as humanity goes, we also receive from our Mother's essence during that process but that fact should only strengthen this example; that while we are from our parents, we are also equal to their essence. We are separate persons but still essentially them (root word essence).

On a heavenly level, Christ also proceeds from the Father; of His very essence but a separate person. But note while we humans are limited, they are everlasting. So while we proceeded (past tense; finite) from our parents, Christ proceeds (present tense; ongoing...) from the Father. He's still a unique person (as we are from our parents) yet also equal in essence (as we are to our parents).

So we are human because our parents are human...and Christ is divine because The Father is divine.


Does being begotten actually make Jesus Yahweh Himself?
Christ is "Yahweh" because The Father gave him His name.

My father's name is David...and his firstborn son is also named David. My father gave his firstborn son his own name. So not only is David's firstborn son equal to him in essence...he also carries his very name. Yet they're two different persons.

There's an interesting passages found in Zechariah 3 where, if we restore God's name, we see - what I think is - an interesting example of both Father and Son being mentioned by The Son, to Joshua in Zechariah's vision.


Zechariah 3:1-2
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the [messenger] of [Yahweh], and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And [Yahweh] said unto Satan, "[Yahweh] rebuke thee, O Satan; [Yahweh] that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"

Yahweh told Satan that Yahweh rebukes him. Yet if this was the same "Yahweh" speaking of himself wouldn't he have said "I" like he did so many other times in the OT. No, from the context the "Angel of the Yahweh's" name is "Yahweh" ("angel" simply meaning "messenger"). This messenger was speaking for God and advocating for Joshua against the accuser. So I don't think there's any doubt that it was Christ speaking here, as he is always been our advocate.

Then that messenger says in verse 7...

7 Thus saith [Yahweh] of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

So this tells me that before The Father gave Christ the name Jesus ["Yahshua" (Heb. for "Yah saves")] for his mission, The Father gave Christ his own name.

Why does Paul seem to make a clear distinction in those passages between God and Christ? Paul clearly says God exalted Him in Philippians 2 and does NOT SAY GOD THE FATHER exalted Him.

1 Corinthians says this


Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

How is Jesus co-equal if Jesus the Son of God is made subject to God?
The truth regarding equality of essence is completely separate from the parent-child relationship regarding *authority* (i.e. who's in charge). And as no human son is (or should be) equal to or over their father in authority, so likewise is Christ not over or equal to The Father in authority.

Now in the realm of royalty, authority followed the name of the king. In other words, to say "I come in the name of the king" carried as much authority as if the king was there himself...but whoever gave that name (The King) was always over the authority of whoever could bear that name.

So in giving his only son his name, The Father also gave The Son all of his authority. Yet this fact doesn't contradict the fact that they're equal in essence (like we are to our parents), nor does it suggest that The Father can't - one day - take back his authority (as scripture prophesies), once Christ's job is finally complete.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Jesus lived under the old covenant. In relation to the law he said it hung on love God and love your neighbour. If you kept those two you would find yourself keeping the others.
To be clear, do you not believe obedience to the law under the old covenant hung on love God and love your neighbor?
The Mosaic regulations were not fulfilled by Mt 22:37-39, nor does the NT present them as fulfilled
therein (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).