And I believe that GOD provided the Grace for us and he provided the faith that we needed(Grace through faith)
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.
Saved by Grace through Faith
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It may surprise you that I also disagree with Gill, well, more correctly I agree and disagree.
It's a Catch 22 kind of thing in a way. God created us, and all of our human/natural being/abilities came from Him, ergo whatever we possess "naturally" was a gift from Him. And the earthly (imperfect) faith that all men have was given to them by God. However, the supernatural faith bestowed by the Holy Spirit far exceeds this natural and imperfect faith.
I certainly do believe in free will, and in no way intended to state otherwise.
Could go on and on about this, but folks should understand the basic concepts of faith in my opinion.
In the old covenant there was two sides of hell.One side was not for tormenting and the other side was for tormenting.
I believe the side where Abraham was is the side where JESUS went and led captivity captive.
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Luke 16:22-26
king James version
22.)And it came to pass,that the beggar died,and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:the rich man also died,and was buried.
23.)And in hell he lift up his eyes,being in torments and earth Abraham afar off,and Lazarus in his bosom.
24.)And he cried and said,Father Abraham,have mercy on me,and send Lazarus,that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,and cool my tongue;for I am tormented in this flame.
25.)But Abraham said,son,remember that thou in your lifetime receivedst thy good things,and likewise Lazarus evil things:but now he is comforted,and you art tormented.
26.)And besides all this,between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they that would pass from hence to you cannot;neither can they pass to us,that would come from hence.
I believe the side where Abraham was is the side where JESUS went and led captivity captive.
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Luke 16:22-26
king James version
22.)And it came to pass,that the beggar died,and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:the rich man also died,and was buried.
23.)And in hell he lift up his eyes,being in torments and earth Abraham afar off,and Lazarus in his bosom.
24.)And he cried and said,Father Abraham,have mercy on me,and send Lazarus,that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,and cool my tongue;for I am tormented in this flame.
25.)But Abraham said,son,remember that thou in your lifetime receivedst thy good things,and likewise Lazarus evil things:but now he is comforted,and you art tormented.
26.)And besides all this,between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they that would pass from hence to you cannot;neither can they pass to us,that would come from hence.
So if one does not have faith and dies faithless and lost, that would be a moral culpability upon God for failing to give this person faith. Rather, man has been commanded to believe/have faith with that command implying that man has the will, ability and responsibility within himself to believe.
"not of yourselves" does not imply man's inability or has no responsibility to believe but man cannot devise his own plan of salvation to save himself. God devised a plan of salvation by which man could be saved and that plan requires>command men to have faith. This plan is God's gift to ALL men, not some men.
Gill: "(salvation) is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing"
Gill tries to avoid the fact that faith itself is a work, that man is to "work out your own salvation".
Men are commanded to desire the word of God, 1 Pet 2:2; which is able to save your souls, James 1:21.
Calvinism and the gospel do not mix nor match.
F
flob
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Paradise in Lk 16 (and 2 Corinthians 12), yes, the nice part of Hades.
Faith itself is not a work, but is God's gift, yes, also our responsibility
Faith itself is not a work, but is God's gift, yes, also our responsibility
Faith is not a work. But faith does cause action...
The Reason you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling is so that you will understand, to the bone, that your faith is not your work.
Your Salvation is not your work.
The Grace given to you is not because of your "obedience".
Not of yourselves means exactly what it says. Faith, Grace and Salvation don't come from you, or your works.
They Are the Gift of God. (Big Giant Period, end of story) If you want these things you must go to God to get them.
So if you want to believe in free will, believe that nothing good comes from you and all you can do, all that is required of you, is that you have Faith that the Lord Jesus saves, that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Salvation, Grace and Faith are great topics. I don't think that people do understand them. Not that people don't have the capacity. Only that these concepts are almost incomprehensible to us. I think if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit these concepts would be entirely incomprehensible to us.
sounds a little bit too catholic for me............sorry.........trying to equate paradise to hell just doesn't fly for me
Hey dude, you is going to hell when you die..............Yeah, but I'm going to the air conditioned one, shoot, compared to that other one it's PARADISE!
I think it is worth our time to explore the basic concepts of faith as well as 'advanced' concepts of faith.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
God and His Word are amazing. The Lord Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.
He started it. He continues it. He will bring it to its fullness.
I think Salvation is the same way. He saved us. He is saving us. He will save us.
Thinking of Salvation and Faith in this way puts us entirely in His Hands. Not that we loved God, but that He Loves us. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves, but our sufficiency is Christ. Not that we are strong, but that He is Strong.
If I was a southern preacher this is where I would shout Gu-Lory... Hallelujah...
But I'm just a regular Northerner so I keep most of that stuff inside... lol
Yes, but, see, I did a whole thread on this..........The Law of Faith........and don't want to beat a dead horse
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114342-law-faith-established.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114342-law-faith-established.html
Yes, but, see, I did a whole thread on this..........The Law of Faith........and don't want to beat a dead horse
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114342-law-faith-established.html
I don't know if you can really talk about Salvation and Grace without talking about Faith.
Even if you've already done a thread...
Yes, but, see, I did a whole thread on this..........The Law of Faith........and don't want to beat a dead horse
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114342-law-faith-established.html
I just went to that other thread, and I understand what you mean.
Sorry about beating the dead horse.
1 Thess 1:3 'work of faith'
Grandpa said:
One must work out his salvation for salvation requires obedient works in carrying out the will of God. Phil 2:12 (or any other verse) does not say "faith is not your work" that is an idea YOU ADDED to the verse.
Salvation requires man's obedience..CHrist is the author of salvation unto all them that OBEY him, Heb 5:9.Grandpa said:
Grandpa said:
God's saving grace is given to all them that conditionally obey. It is never given to them that "obey not the gospel of Christ" 2 Thess 1:8 but vengeance is given to them that "obey not"
Grandpa said:
Salvation not being of myself means I cannot devise any plan of salvation to save myself. It does not mean I have no role in God's plan of salvation He has graciously given man. GOd's free gift of salvation comes with conditions./ No one on this forum has yet to devise a way to save a man who has not, does NOT CONDITIONALLY believe, repent, confess or be baptized.
Grandpa said:
Will the Lord save those that will not repent; Lk 13:3,5 save those that deny Him, Mt 10:32,33 that refuse to be baptized, MK 16;16? No.
Grandpa said:
The biggest misconception on this forum is by those that think grace/salvation are unconditional.
Wasn't "Paradise" as Jesus spoke of to the thief on the cross considered Abraham's bosom? Would Paradise be one side of hell? Just asking...........
Paradise is the place where God is. 2 Cor 12.1-3 - unless there are two Paradises LOL
In context, and comparing the parallels, that means 'work resulting from faith'. All the works of a Christian result from faith.
Incorrect again, we 'energise out' our salvation (the salvation we are enjoying through Christ's saving activity) because we are in the process of it. Our salvation RESULTS in obedient works. How? Because God is at work in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13). That is the idea you EXCLUDED from the verses. Isn't it strange how you heretics always omit the last part?
Incorrect again. Salvation RESULTS IN obedience. As the author of salvation, its initiator, He initiates the salvation that result in obedience. How can men obey Him? Through His initiating saving work.
LOL who is ADDING words now? Where does Scripture speak of conditionally obeying Him? God saving grace is given to men WITHOUT WORKS. 'By grace (God's unmerited love and favour) you have been saved through faith --- not of works' (Ephe 2,8-9).
yes vengeance is inflicted on those who 'do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ'. They know God and as a consequence of knowing Him obey the Gospel. And what is it to obey the Gospel? It is to do what the Gospel demands. It is to BELIEVE. Thus they are saved by knowing and believing.
that is one thing you are correct about. you are unable to activate any plan of salvation. If you are to be saved it must come from Him.
Of course you have a role. It is to open yourself to it, to accept it freely, and to respond as He saves you. .
How can a FREE gift come with conditions?. That is a contradiction. Either it is free OR it has conditions. It cannot be both.
LOL no one on this forum could devise a way for men to be saved. It is beyond man. For salvation is of God. And the one 'condition' is the grace of God, God's unmerited favour and love (Eph 2.8). It is received through faith (Eph 2.8). But that is not a condition. No man can make himself have faith. It is a means of reception. It is NOT OF WORKS.
You are a destroyer of the Gospel, and your ideas are alien to it. It is God Who causes us to change our minds (repent). It is God Who so convinces us that we believe. AS A CONSEQUENCE we confess Him and are baptised out of gratitude for what He has done. But the work is OF GOD.
How could He? He saves them by working repentance in them. He causes a change of mind. That is the beginnings of salvation. And it is God's work.
Once He has saved them they will not deny Him. Thus denial of Him is evidence that they have not been saved. But their continual confessing of HIM is a consequence of their being saved. not the way in which they are saved. Their initial confession is a response of faith. It reveals their faith. It is not a condition of salvation, but a result.
actually they can refuse to be baptised and still be saved. Mark 16.16 says they will be condemned because they did not believe, not because they were not baptised. 'He who believes not will be condemned'.
Many have refused to be baptised because baptism had become a mockery and had become formal. But they were saved because they believed. e.g. the early Quakers, Salvationists
The biggest contradiction on this forum is that salvation freely given by the grace of God is conditional.
you would LOL you think Big Daddy and his heretical church will save you. And of course guess who? You are unable to trust in God alone.
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paradise would be the side that satin held the prophets but it was not the burning side.Wasn't "Paradise" as Jesus spoke of to the thief on the cross considered Abraham's bosom? Would Paradise be one side of hell? Just asking...........
the other side where the rich man was was the tormenting side.
its now empty,(paradise)