Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

KJV "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

We need to go beyond 1 year of Greek to exegete this verse.

"THAT" introduces a PURPOSE CLAUSE. This not stating the current condition of the believer. It is stating the PURPOSE of God sending His Son.

The indicative mood can't be used in a purpose clause, that is why we see the subjunctive mood in " May have eternal life."


Again, this NOT stating the condition of the believer at a given time. It is stating the PURPOSE of God sending His Son.

I do not agree.

Having everlasting life is CONDITIONAL upon one having a present tense seeing and believing. If not, then you can have one still gaining everlasting life but has quit seeing and believing......yet unbelief is a pre-condemned state, Jn 3:18. Therefore one MAY HAVE everlasting life depending upon the circumstance that he conditionally keeps on seeing and believing. There is no indicative "shall have" everlasting life whether he continues to see and believe or quits.

You posted "God sent His Son for the PURPOSE/PROBABILITY of giving the believer eternal life."

Will Jesus unconditionally give everlasting life to those who do not, never have believed? No
Will Jesus unconditionally give everlasting life to those who once believed, yet quit turning back to unbelief? No

Therefore Jesus' "purpose" is NOT to give everlasting life to those that do not believe or who once believed but have quit.

 

[p_rehbein]

It's not absurd at all. If maintaining our salvation is based upon us in any way, there is thus no reason why we couldn't use our free will to rebel in heaven and lose our salvation. The same sins that separated us from God originally, are the same sins we commit today. The only difference in our lives that gives us access to God is through the power of the blood of Jesus alone. He is the author, He is the finisher. His guarantee through His sacrifice. His glory, not ours.

Nope, wrong. Read what Paul says about..............this imperfect putting on the perfect........there will be no sins then.....and there is no glory being spoken of with free will. Same old argument against free will, and it just won't float the boat.

With the separating of the wheat and the chaff, free will is fulfilled. Don't expect Calvinists to understand though.

 

[Stephen63]

When, over time, a society moves from a clear majority of believers, and a general openness to the Gospel to a clear majority of unbelievers and a general unreceptiveness to the gospel; there has been a great falling away; even if nobody has lost faith.

There has been times of apostasy throughout history, as well as spiritual decline. But, since this one will be the last before God's judgement, it will be the worst. Apostasy means defection..... leaving never to return. While they will defect from the Kingdom, they won't from religion, for the Antichrist will be their master..... (I couldn't bring myself to say "savior" there..... sounded too much like blasphemy to me).

 

[MarcR]

There has been times of apostasy throughout history, as well as spiritual decline. But, since this one will be the last before God's judgement, it will be the worst. Apostasy means defection..... leaving never to return. While they will defect from the Kingdom, they won't from religion, for the Antichrist will be their master..... (I couldn't bring myself to say "savior" there..... sounded too much like blasphemy to me).

I have no doubt that the antichrist will have a huge following. I do, however, believe that nobody who was ever truly saved will be among them.

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 5:1-5 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

As usual, Paul was speaking to the church, not the sinners.

Mixing OT law of circumcision with the Gospel would have totally separated the Galatian christians from Christ. This is as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[flob]

yes.......lol........that doesn't mean they lose their birth! Good grief

 

[p_rehbein]

I have no doubt that the antichrist will have a huge following. I do, however, believe that nobody who was ever truly saved will be among them.

..........problem is, that is the "always go to for those who believe the ideology of OSAS......"yeah, they fell away, left the faith, but they weren't TRULY SAVED.......

I suppose that the profession of OSAS qualifies folks to determine the state of a persons relationship with God

Jesus was quite clear about the "falling away"

Verb phrases 53. fall away,

• to withdraw support or allegiance: The candidate's supporters fell away when he advocated racial discrimination.
  
• to become lean or thin; diminish; decline.
• to forsake one's faith, cause, or principles: Many fell away because they were afraid of reprisals.

54. fall back, to give way; recede; retreat: The relentless shelling forced the enemy to fall back.

 

[flob]

Lol-----believers into Christ taking the Antichrist's name?
how ridiculous. He will persecute the Woman in Rev 12.
As absurd as below:

Physically one cannot become unborn but one can spiritually when a child of God turns his back upon God when he quits seeing, hearing believing and coming to Christ.

It's like this particular heresy wants people, Christians, to go to hell

 

[p_rehbein]

Lol-----believers into Christ taking the Antichrist's name?
how ridiculous. He will persecute the Woman in Rev 12.
As absurd as below:

It's like this particular heresy wants people, Christians, to go to hell

Just wondering here.........what if someone isn't quite truthful about themselves/personal information when they join a Christian Web site.........? Is that a problem?

 

[flob]

you're.........Christian?

 

[Gr8grace]

Just wondering here.........what if someone isn't quite truthful about themselves/personal information when they join a Christian Web site.........? Is that a problem?

What business is it of theirs or yours? We should not have to divulge one iota of our personal info to anyone.

 

[p_rehbein]

What business is it of theirs or yours? We should not have to divulge one iota of our personal info to anyone.

Actually, it is the "business" of the owners/Admins of any Website. And, I'm just wondering, if one provides false information when joining a Christian website, should others give credence to their comments on the site? This applies to anyone/everyone.

 

[SeaBass]

Lol-----believers into Christ taking the Antichrist's name?
how ridiculous. He will persecute the Woman in Rev 12.
As absurd as below:

It's like this particular heresy wants people, Christians, to go to hell

Where did I say I want anyone to go to hell?

 

[Stephen63]

yes.......lol........that doesn't mean they lose their birth! Good grief

It means exactly that.

1 Timothy 5:8-15 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; [SUP]12[/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For some are already turned aside after Satan.


And for those that have their own version of damnation, Jesus only spoke of one:
Matthew 23:33 (KJV) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

This isn't the only example of christians backsliding & receiving eternal damnation for it..... there are several.

We are secure IF we continue to walk by faith on a daily basis. Believing on Christ is a lifetime commitment..... not a one-time get-out-of-Hell-free card.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not agree.

Having everlasting life is CONDITIONAL upon one having a present tense seeing and believing. If not, then you can have one still gaining everlasting life but has quit seeing and believing......yet unbelief is a pre-condemned state, Jn 3:18. Therefore one MAY HAVE everlasting life depending upon the circumstance that he conditionally keeps on seeing and believing. There is no indicative "shall have" everlasting life whether he continues to see and believe or quits.

You posted "God sent His Son for the PURPOSE/PROBABILITY of giving the believer eternal life."

Will Jesus unconditionally give everlasting life to those who do not, never have believed? No
Will Jesus unconditionally give everlasting life to those who once believed, yet quit turning back to unbelief? No

Therefore Jesus' "purpose" is NOT to give everlasting life to those that do not believe or who once believed but have quit.

Of course not........!

 

[Stephen63]

We are secure IF we continue to walk by faith on a daily basis. Believing on Christ is a lifetime commitment..... not a one-time get-out-of-Hell-free card.

Believing for our salvation is a choice every christian makes..... every day for life.
Matthew 24:11-13 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure (persevere in faith) unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Gr8grace]

Of course not........!

I can assure him he is wrong. But, your right. He can't agree.

 

[flob]

Actually, it is the "business" of the owners/Admins of any Website. And, I'm just wondering, if one provides false information when joining a Christian website, should others give credence to their comments on the site? This applies to anyone/everyone.

You're saying heretics, such as yourself, own this Website?
Then yes, please do censor those who disagree with your error.

Where did I say I want anyone to go to hell?

I said 'it's like.' Meaning it's as if you want believers to go (back) to hell.
For their sins and shortcomings

It means exactly that [de-borning, debirthing? unbirthing]
1 Timothy 5:8-15 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; [SUP]12[/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For some are already turned aside after Satan.

See? Sadly this illustrates the eagerness of this particular Judaizer to prefer saints to go to hell.
To be worse than an unbeliever, in the verse above, refers to the person's condition in this life.
Very similar to the one in Corinth, who committed fornication even worse than the fornication of the unbelievers. And Paul 'delivered him to Satan.' For the destruction of his flesh. That his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord. That is ................ discipline! Not eternal damnation. You really can't tell the difference? You-all.........................have neither ever heard, nor 'imagined,' that there could be a difference? Maybe it's the archaic K.J. English that perplexes or scares you. It is............'simply' condemnation. There's all sorts of condemnations of saints in the Bible. For example, in Matthew, the Lord Jesus called Peter 'Satan.' That doesn't mean Peter will be in the lake of fire for ever. Nor that Peter, for those few minutes or whatever duration..............was back on track to go to hell.
Satan------in the form of the Sin nature-------remains in the believers until............transfiguration.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. You don't have to turn 'very far,' to turn aside to Satan. He's right in the flesh. Does that mean it's okay to do so? Of course not. Does that mean everytime you, or I, do.............we've become unborn of God? Than need to be born again.............again? And again........and again? This is precisely what Hebrews 6 says Christians should NOT do: should not go back to the beginning and start the Christian race all over again

And for those that have their own version of damnation, Jesus only spoke of one:
Matthew 23:33 (KJV) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Just like the Bible word 'saved' or 'salvation,' the word 'condemnation' is very broad. It's meaning depending on its context.
The disciples said 'Lord, save us' when there was a storm on the sea. Did that mean save them from hell? Likewise with condemnation-------you have to read with at least some discernment.

This isn't the only example of christians backsliding & receiving eternal damnation for it..... there are several.

All such 'examples' of believers refer to punishment. Temporary discipline and punishment. Not to eternal destiny. Once one is born of God, one is always born of God

We are secure IF we continue to walk by faith on a daily basis. Believing on Christ is a lifetime commitment..... not a one-time get-out-of-Hell-free card.

To the contrary of your particular heresy:
it's both.

 

[atwhatcost]

It was a statement about a certain denomination not being Christian

Just one or all the ones he mentioned?

 

[atwhatcost]

Dear confused,

The context is a definition of a Christian, which you liked, earlier on this thread.

Lynn again?

LOL Nah, I got that. I just saw everything you said as three facts, but he said "you have a right to your opinion," so I was confused because facts are opinions?