-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here is the Gospel presented very succinctly.
Lev 17:8
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV
There is much more; but this is sufficient.
There were indeed people of faith in OT times; and they came to faith the same way we do: by God's grace.
Lev 17:8
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV
There is much more; but this is sufficient.
There were indeed people of faith in OT times; and they came to faith the same way we do: by God's grace.
Exodus 33:19
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
K
By only reading the Old Testament, it is a possibility that someone could be led to salvation....of course. But then why would the New Testament be needed then? Without any knowledge of the NT, then everything from the OT would still be just symbolism. Symbols that would need interpreting and a lot of studying in order to decode what they meant. Many did not follow the Ten Commandments, so they needed a hero someone that would save them no matter how much they broke the law, so there came Jesus...in the New Testament. In the OT no one that read it knew about anything about a savior and a cross, or someone dying on the cross for their sins for them. They knew that they should obey the rules, follow the laws by Moses or else they should fear God. They tried, some did not care, and some did not know they would one day break a law. However, the only one that did know they would follow the rules was God himself. So what did He do? He promised to show mercy and forgiveness to the people who would follow his rules. "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation" (Exodus 34:7). Then the ones who did not follow and obey, He promised hell, "The Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven" (Deut. 29: 20).
Those people Before Christ or before the cross that did sacrifices, it says in the Bible that that did not take away the sin and erased. It was a symbol to the blood that Jesus Christ would shed for us all. Even when Jesus was around his disciples, he told them he would be punished and severely tortured, etc. and they denied, they could not believe it. Peter said "Never should it happen to you", he could see Jesus being tortured. The same way Abraham and Moses could not believe it or know it would happen. So how would only OT readers be saved IF we did not have the NT today and we were waiting on it? Well, then by grace and faith we would be credited with righteousness if we were to obey God. (Genesis 15:6). There are still promises in the OT that the Messiah would come to save us, and that is the belief and faith in God that was needed in the OT. If we only had the OT to read, I would focus on Isaiah 53.
Today, we do have the NT though so we need Jesus Christ because we can accept him as our Savior, the way to be saved.
[h=1]Isaiah 53[/h]Embed
[h=6][/h]
53 Who has believed our messageu
and to whom has the armv of the Lord been revealed?w
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,x
and like a rooty out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearancez that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering,a and familiar with pain.b
Like one from whom people hidec their faces
he was despised,d and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,e
yet we considered him punished by God,f
stricken by him, and afflicted.g
5 But he was piercedh for our transgressions,i
he was crushedj for our iniquities;
the punishmentk that brought us peacel was on him,
and by his woundsm we are healed.n
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,o
each of us has turned to our own way;p
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquityq of us all.
7 He was oppressedr and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;s
he was led like a lambt to the slaughter,u
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppressiona and judgmentv he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;w
for the transgressionx of my people he was punished.b
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,y
and with the richz in his death,
though he had done no violence,a
nor was any deceit in his mouth.b
10 Yet it was the Lord’s willc to crushd him and cause him to suffer,e
and though the Lord makesc his life an offering for sin,f
he will see his offspringg and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosperh in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,i
he will see the lightj of lifed and be satisfiede;
by his knowledgef my righteous servantk will justifyl many,
and he will bear their iniquities.m
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,g n
and he will divide the spoilso with the strong,h
because he poured out his life unto death,p
and was numbered with the transgressors.q
For he borer the sin of many,s
and made intercessiont for the transgressors.
(https://biblia.com/bible/niv2011/Is53)
Those people Before Christ or before the cross that did sacrifices, it says in the Bible that that did not take away the sin and erased. It was a symbol to the blood that Jesus Christ would shed for us all. Even when Jesus was around his disciples, he told them he would be punished and severely tortured, etc. and they denied, they could not believe it. Peter said "Never should it happen to you", he could see Jesus being tortured. The same way Abraham and Moses could not believe it or know it would happen. So how would only OT readers be saved IF we did not have the NT today and we were waiting on it? Well, then by grace and faith we would be credited with righteousness if we were to obey God. (Genesis 15:6). There are still promises in the OT that the Messiah would come to save us, and that is the belief and faith in God that was needed in the OT. If we only had the OT to read, I would focus on Isaiah 53.
Today, we do have the NT though so we need Jesus Christ because we can accept him as our Savior, the way to be saved.
[h=1]Isaiah 53[/h]Embed
[h=6][/h]
53 Who has believed our messageu
and to whom has the armv of the Lord been revealed?w
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,x
and like a rooty out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearancez that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering,a and familiar with pain.b
Like one from whom people hidec their faces
he was despised,d and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,e
yet we considered him punished by God,f
stricken by him, and afflicted.g
5 But he was piercedh for our transgressions,i
he was crushedj for our iniquities;
the punishmentk that brought us peacel was on him,
and by his woundsm we are healed.n
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,o
each of us has turned to our own way;p
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquityq of us all.
7 He was oppressedr and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;s
he was led like a lambt to the slaughter,u
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppressiona and judgmentv he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;w
for the transgressionx of my people he was punished.b
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,y
and with the richz in his death,
though he had done no violence,a
nor was any deceit in his mouth.b
10 Yet it was the Lord’s willc to crushd him and cause him to suffer,e
and though the Lord makesc his life an offering for sin,f
he will see his offspringg and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosperh in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,i
he will see the lightj of lifed and be satisfiede;
by his knowledgef my righteous servantk will justifyl many,
and he will bear their iniquities.m
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,g n
and he will divide the spoilso with the strong,h
because he poured out his life unto death,p
and was numbered with the transgressors.q
For he borer the sin of many,s
and made intercessiont for the transgressors.
(https://biblia.com/bible/niv2011/Is53)
3
The OT clearly teaches that Adam, Abraham, David, and all were saved by Faith. Nothing added.
Now some on CC teach that there are certian requirements that have been added in the NT that are necessary to obtain and or keep salvation, such as baptism, keeping the commands of Jesus etc.
If this is true, and if a person did not have access to the NT teachings, it would seem that salvation is not possible for that person.
Would a just and holly God really require only faith in the OT but up the requriments after the NT was completed?
Now some on CC teach that there are certian requirements that have been added in the NT that are necessary to obtain and or keep salvation, such as baptism, keeping the commands of Jesus etc.
If this is true, and if a person did not have access to the NT teachings, it would seem that salvation is not possible for that person.
Would a just and holly God really require only faith in the OT but up the requriments after the NT was completed?
A
From what I've learned, Jao is the ancient oriental word for Jehovah. Through the millenniums it has turned into the word Tao.
Jove is the name of the king of Roman gods. It too came from the word Jehovah. We know it watered down to Jupiter.
This amazes me because it tells me people -- long before the time of Christ and halfway around the world from where Christ came -- understood who I AM that I AM was. He never hid out on a dinky part of the southeastern corner of the Mediterranean Sea. He showed himself wherever there were people before the Bible started being written on scrolls.
It also kills off the "but what if someone lives on an island and never hears about God" argument. There is no place to hide so as not to know who God is. There's only room to invent more rules to declare you do know him.
Pfffft, there is no new rules. The rules we have are between 2000-3600 years old. The "rule" is have faith in God. And there is only one way Man has ever gotten that rule, through God working in us.
Jove is the name of the king of Roman gods. It too came from the word Jehovah. We know it watered down to Jupiter.
This amazes me because it tells me people -- long before the time of Christ and halfway around the world from where Christ came -- understood who I AM that I AM was. He never hid out on a dinky part of the southeastern corner of the Mediterranean Sea. He showed himself wherever there were people before the Bible started being written on scrolls.
It also kills off the "but what if someone lives on an island and never hears about God" argument. There is no place to hide so as not to know who God is. There's only room to invent more rules to declare you do know him.
Pfffft, there is no new rules. The rules we have are between 2000-3600 years old. The "rule" is have faith in God. And there is only one way Man has ever gotten that rule, through God working in us.
The OT was pointing toward Jesus and the sacrifice. They had the 10 as we have the 10 showing us what the rules of God's government was...Trust me Cain knew it was wrong to kill Abel before he did so.... It is the reason they sacrificed the animals they were being shown that sin has to be paid with blood for them it was the blood of animals representing the blood of Jesus since He had not come yet.
For us it is the blood of Jesus and the NT shows the life of Jesus and points back to the sacrifice. Salvation has always been through the blood of Jesus just represented by animals until He came to pay the price for our sins and their sins. We are all saved by the blood of Jesus OT or NT times..... Jesus came not to destroy the law but to uphold it and He fulfilled it for us.
If Jesus had failed none of us would be saved -0- no one.... But He is the victor and our salvation and our King. satan is defeated and his time is running out.
For us it is the blood of Jesus and the NT shows the life of Jesus and points back to the sacrifice. Salvation has always been through the blood of Jesus just represented by animals until He came to pay the price for our sins and their sins. We are all saved by the blood of Jesus OT or NT times..... Jesus came not to destroy the law but to uphold it and He fulfilled it for us.
If Jesus had failed none of us would be saved -0- no one.... But He is the victor and our salvation and our King. satan is defeated and his time is running out.
I took an interesting course in Seminary called "The Gospel of Moses" by Hebrew and Old Testament scholar Dan Block. He wrote a book on this - a challenging read but very well sourced! I highly recommend it to those who want to look deeper into this issue.
His basis premise, using Deuteronomy was that under the Old Testament, the Jews were saved by grace alone. He showed it using Scripture. One person who took the course was a Messianic Jew - as in raised Jewish and converted. She said since she started going to Christian churches, after she was saved, she kept hearing that salvation in the Old Testament was by the law.
But she said growing up, that the Scriptures will always presenting grace in the temple. And the course really helped her in her walk with Christ, knowing that God had made a way for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be saved by faith in the grace of God.
But yes, I am thankfu we have the Scriptures and that Jesus came before my time! And so glad he saved me!
His basis premise, using Deuteronomy was that under the Old Testament, the Jews were saved by grace alone. He showed it using Scripture. One person who took the course was a Messianic Jew - as in raised Jewish and converted. She said since she started going to Christian churches, after she was saved, she kept hearing that salvation in the Old Testament was by the law.
But she said growing up, that the Scriptures will always presenting grace in the temple. And the course really helped her in her walk with Christ, knowing that God had made a way for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be saved by faith in the grace of God.
But yes, I am thankfu we have the Scriptures and that Jesus came before my time! And so glad he saved me!
The first promise of the redeemer is found in Genesis 3:15
The Kinsman redeemer is seen in Ruth
and on and on and on.......Grace is woven through the O.T. though not as prevalent and or obvious as the N.T.
Gr8grace: Yep. The Kinsman redeemer. That is a worthwhile study.
Its all Grace, from the foundation of the world to the the new earth and heavens.
So, just to be clear. When all the folks who continually post threads lecturing women on what they can say/not say, wear/not wear, look/not look and such..............you would not agree with them right? Good.
So, from now on, I fully expect the "Grace only" folks to jump in on such threads and reveal to those who lecture women that:
Its all Grace, from the foundation of the world to the the new earth and heavens.
1. The HUSBAND of ONE wife.........God does not promote homosexualism so it must be talking of a MAN
2. For a WOMAN to NOT USURP authority over a man to teach over men<----This alleviates a woman PASTOR teaching the men...
3. Under the banner of number 2 it was God that inspired Paul to write that women were to remain silent...
So.....anyone who is offended with the above can take it up with God as it is his INSPIRED WORD.......
As far as the other comments.....I agree.....who cares what they wear and or how they look as long as they are not dressed like a French P----------.........!
P
There were many types of water baptism in the Old Testament. Two of the more obvious types are detailed here:
I Corinthians chapter 10 verses 1 and 2
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
I Peter chapter 3 verses 18 thru 22
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
I Corinthians chapter 10 verses 1 and 2
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
I Peter chapter 3 verses 18 thru 22
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
K
Grace through faith, now that some have knowledge of the NT then they can add to their list that they should believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Otherwise, believing in God and faith in God, and knowing He will provide us with all we need, then that is what would save us through only OT teachings.
P
Amen.
Paul's gospel was no different than the gospel as presented in the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy and other Old Testament books as well. Paul said:
Romans chapter 10 verses 5 thru 10
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above);
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I suspect that everybody here is familiar with Paul's admonition to confess with one's mouth and to believe in one's heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead in relation to salvation, but I equally suspect that very few here are as aware that Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 11 thru 14 which Paul quoted above and which I'm about to quote below was the foundational basis for such an admonition:
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
We really need to pay closer attention to what we're actually reading in our Bibles. Yes, Paul's righteousness which is of faith which he contrasted with the righteousness which is of the law was pulled directly from the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy.
Paul's gospel was no different than the gospel as presented in the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy and other Old Testament books as well. Paul said:
Romans chapter 10 verses 5 thru 10
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above);
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I suspect that everybody here is familiar with Paul's admonition to confess with one's mouth and to believe in one's heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead in relation to salvation, but I equally suspect that very few here are as aware that Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 11 thru 14 which Paul quoted above and which I'm about to quote below was the foundational basis for such an admonition:
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
We really need to pay closer attention to what we're actually reading in our Bibles. Yes, Paul's righteousness which is of faith which he contrasted with the righteousness which is of the law was pulled directly from the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy.