When does the rapture occur?

KennethC · Jun 26, 2015

I listen just fine and those passages I gave are all one's you have tried to use to defend a pre-trib rapture timing, which none of them do. You can not even pull a timing from those verses alone !!!

I have given you a number from Paul, Revelation, John, Jesus, and Daniel in the past that all show when each event takes place, and you denied every single one of them and came back with a faulty debating trying to say I provided no scriptural evidence. By stating that shows you don't even read what another has shown you.........

Daniel - Shows a 7 year period called the tribulation that the man of sin starts by confirming a covenant/treaty, then breaks it in the middle after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 9:26-27

Jesus - Says that when you see the A.O.D. spoken by Daniel those in Judea run to the mountains, and in Daniel it shows this even as the defiling of the temple. Also mentioned in Matthew 24:15, and Mark 13:14 !!!

Paul - Expands on how this defiling is done by the man of sin standing in the temple claiming to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

John/Revelation - Shows Jews and Christians alike will be persecuted/killed by the man of sin in the great tribulation. Revelation 6:3-13, 13:1-18, 16:1-7, and 18:10-24

So you now have by the previous scriptures I gave from the bible the timing of the A.O.D./man of sin revealed, then you have Revelation showing Christians getting persecuted/killed during the GT. Your pre-trib falls flat just by these few alone....

mwc68 · Jun 26, 2015

KennethC said:

Hey I have never tried to give you God's word in a hateful way.
I know you may have taken it that way do to how others were speaking to you in the Catholic thread, but I am not one of them that was trying to give the truth with love behind it.

The bible shows very clearly that not only Jews but Christians as well are persecuted and killed during the GT, and that Jesus clearly says because the world persecuted Him we also will face the worlds persecution.

The issue that people still have with this teaching is they think we are more special then other believers and will escape the coming persecution from this evil world. When God's word says we are only not appointed to face God's wrath, which that comes in the vial judgments at the end of the GT.

I still see a rapture event but it is the 1st Resurrection that takes place at Jesus second coming, so that God's wrath can be poured out on the rest and not on believers in Him.

Yes, its the only "rapture" i have found in the bible. We're good! I knew eventually I would find common ground!

cerialis · Jun 26, 2015

mwc68 said:

Well, I do not know where you got that one from, but the war in heaven could not occur until the end of the Appointed Times of the Nations which was to run for 2520 years from 607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E. when as prophesied in Daniel 12:1 Jesus in his capacity as Michael the champion of Almighty God would stand up and there would be tribulation all over the earth.

This was the first occurrence of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse [Revelation] when Christ as the one on the white horse with the bow and the crown moved against Satan with his forces and so began the war in heaven and World War on the earth which was to span thirty years [1914-1945].

In his capacity as Michael, on his fiery coloured horse, he was granted to take peace away from the earth as Satan battled with his forces. Noe because of this, with war came food shortages and so the rider on the black hores with the pair of scales called for the measuring of food for those on the earth.

With war now raging, death ensued, pictured by the rider on the pale horse and Hades [grave] followed close behind.

The details of this whole event is brought to us in Revelation 12:7-12, showing how Michel battling with the dragon [Satan]; cast him down to the vicinity of earth and woe came to the earth because Satan had now come down having great anger knowing he has but a short period of time as we approach the dawn of the Sabbath Millennium.

This could never have been written in the past tense, due to the fact that Revelation is a forward-lokking book of prophecy which still has more fulfillment to come.

We still have the great tribulation to come, which must be cut short by the incoming kingdom; along with the binding of Satan for the period of the thousand year reign of the Christ and the earthly resurrection of all mankind for the purpose of bringing all mankind up to the status of human perfection as originally purposed by Almighty God.

It is then at this point, Satan will be let loose for a little while to once more try and turn all mankind away from God as he did with Adam and Eve in Eden. In fact, the scripture does show that even after a thousand years of perfection under paradisaical conditions; a vast number will still follow the adversary; only to be destroyed completely along with Satan. (Revelation 20:7-10)

So there we are, a forward-looking prophecy which is about to unfold shortly.

Alexander

flob · Jun 26, 2015

To the contrary Kenneth:
70 7s are apportioned for your people...And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one 7;
and in the middle of the 7 he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and will replace the
sacrifice and the oblation with abominations of the desolator, even until the complete destruction that
has been determined is poured out upon the desolator.
Dan 9:24-27. He doesn't interrupt his own covenant........until 3 1/2 years into it.

And he will speak things against the Most High and wear out the saints of the Most High; and his
intention will be to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time
and times and half a time.
7:25. 1 + 2+ 1/2 = 3 1/2.

They will trample the holy city for 42 months.
Rev 11:2. 42 months = 3 1/2 years.

Authority was given to him to act for 42 months.
13:5.

The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that
they might nourish her there 1,260 days.
12:6. 1260 days = 3 1/2 years.

Who told you that?
Since you, or someone else, think 'the bible shows' it...................
Where does the Bible show it?

I am guessing that you're saying Jews and Christians aren't experiencing tribulation......
except for 3 1/2 years? If so, then we agree that it is 3 1/2 years. Regardless what you call it.

Is false peace the same as peace?
Is it peaceful enough to rebuild that thing? And resume sacrifices?

You're correct that he's not been revealed. Yet, on the other hand, Revelation has revealed who he is
inwardly, the last 3 1/2 years. If you can figure it out. It is in Revelation 17:3, 7-11; 13:3, 12, 14, 17-18; Daniel 9:26.
Daniel also hints at his nationality(ies) before then: Daniel 8:9; 7:19-25; 9:26.

JesusIsAll · Jun 27, 2015

Authentic Scholarship and Exegesis of the Pretribulation Rapture

PlainWord · Jun 28, 2015

JesusIsAll said:

His 7 main points to prove a Pre-Trib all fail for the following reasons:

This matters not. The church was addressed in Chapters 1-3. The church is in fact mentioned in many places in Rev 6-18 if one understands. The church is the two witnesses mentioned in Chapter 11. The church is also mentioned in Chapter 12 as the offspring of the Woman. The church is also found in Rev 7 as the Great Multitude killed during the Tribulation.

Another false assumption. The church is virtually wiped out during the Trib. The "Rapture" is for the remnant, those who survive. Paul makes this point very clear:

Then we who are alive and remain...

So does Christ when He discusses shortening those days for the sake of the Elect (few).

I can't believe this guy is a professor. Christ warns us repeatedly.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

So does Paul:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

So does Daniel:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

and so does John:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Clueless!!

PlainWord · Jun 28, 2015

If one understands the Apocalyptic symbolism John uses here is the Church first under attack, then defeated, then killed:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

There is a clear 3 phase sequence listed above: 1) war, 2) overcome or defeat then 3) death. The church has been under attack since day 1 (both physically and spiritually). The church is in the process of being overcome right now as mainstream human attitudes towards the church are at historic lows worldwide.

The next verse makes clear that the church is "killed" in a spiritual sense by "Sodom and Egypt." This means that Gay Rights and Islam will defeat and kill the church as we see below:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.

This "Great City" is an evil, spiritual "city" as contrasted to Holy New Jerusalem. God's laws concerning marriage were just changed in the USA on Friday. The US Supreme Court legalized the killing of the unborn in the 1970s and now legalized same gender marriage thus "changing God's laws." But more more changes are coming.

Daniel 7:25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Stand by...

KennethC · Jun 28, 2015

flob said:

Once again your point fails because my point was that nowhere does the bible say he reveals himself 3 1/2 years before the tribulation.

Daniel 9:26-27 says he confirms a covenant for one 7 year period, so even if you go by this passage as saying the covenant being made reveals him then that is at the very start of the 7 year tribulation period, not 3 1/2 years before it.

But then you still have to take in account of what Jesus and Paul said and both point to the A.O.D. as the event that he reveals himself to the world. The A.O.D. is when he stands in the temple claiming to be God, and this happens at the mid point of the tribulation after the first 3 1/2 years, not at the beginning.

The 3 1/2 years you are referring to in Revelation 11, 12, and 13 is the final 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period that Jesus referred as being the Great Tribulation.

The first 3 1/2 years he will bring in a false peace allowing the Jews to return to animal sacrifices, because they will have their temple rebuilt on the temple mount. After those first 3 1/2 years he will invade Israel and take over Jerusalem going into the temple claiming to be God, and this is the point Jesus tells the Jews in Judea to flee into the mountains.

The bible shows this will happen of the temple rebuilt and the animal sacrifices resumed, and as for the anitchrist we again need to understand the difference of the spirit of antichrist and the last end time Antichrist figure. The bible speaks of both and people continue to still confuse this issue into being one.

Like I said before Revelation 2:13 and 13:2 shows exactly where to look for this man of sin to rise from........Turkey !!!

PlainWord · Jun 28, 2015

If one understands the Apocalyptic symbolism John uses the Church first falls under attack (happens since day 1), then is spiritually defeated (happening now), then physically killed (coming soon):

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

There is a clear 3 phase sequence listed above: 1) war, 2) overcome or defeat then 3) death. The church has been under attack since day 1 (both physically and spiritually). The church is in the process of being overcome right now as mainstream human attitudes towards the church are at historic lows worldwide.

The next verse makes clear that the church is "killed" in a spiritual place called "Sodom and Egypt." This means that Gay Rights and Islam will defeat and kill the church as we see below:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.

This "Great City" is an evil, spiritual "city" as contrasted to Holy New Jerusalem. God's laws concerning marriage were just changed in the USA on Friday. The US Supreme Court legalized the killing of the unborn in the 1970s and now legalized same gender marriage thus "changing God's laws." But more changes are coming.

Daniel 7:25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Stand by...

flob · Jun 28, 2015

If the Tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the original covenant, then he reveals himself to the extent you, or I, or anyone recognizes him and his confirming of a covenant for 7 years.
That is why I asked, and even beg, you to show me where in the Bible the Tribulation is Not 3 1/2 years. Where is it 7 years?
Where?

In regard to your nice question, all we seem to differ on is the length of the Tribulation. I state that it is 3 1/2 years long.
Based on the Scripture I provided you in my previous post. You state that it is 7 years long. My question to you is: Can you support your position with the Bible? If so, where in the Bible? What Scripture(s)? That would help me a lot.
I get that the covenant when made is intended to be for 7 years. I get that God determined 70 7s on Israel, and that only one 7 remains to transpire. I get, and agree, with both of those. But nowhere, that I can find, does the Bible call those 7 years either Tribulation or Great Tribulation. Where do you find that the Tribulation is 7 years long?

Ok, I'll be glad to try to take that into account. If you would be so kind as to share with me where in the Bible it might say or suggest or imply or indicate or show or prove or evidence or demonstrate or reveal or prophesy or define the Tribulation to be 7 years long. Where? I fully get that you state, and at least assume that it is 7 years. But where might the Scriptures say that?

In regard to the AOD: that is what the son of perdition (and false prophet) does. In Revelation and Daniel and Thessalonians (2 Thes 2:4). And that is certainly one, huge time when he 'is revealed.' But I do not read 2 Thes 2:1-12 as saying that is THE (one, single, only, unique) event by which he is revealed. Because of both the grammar of 2 Thes 2:3-4, and also because of Daniel 9:27 which states that he will make a firm covenant with the many 3 1/2 years Before...............he breaks it with his AOD.

Lastly, in regard to 2 Thes 2:1 about my (and other saints) gathering together to Him: the earliest (first) rapture (of the Manchild and Firstfruits; Rv 12; 14; Lk 21:36; Rv 3:10; Philip 3:11---the 'ek-'resurrection from the dead; Rv 7:9-17)
happens near simultaneously with the AOD. That is: at the start of the Great Tribulation (aka The Tribulation), of 3 1/2 years.
So that even if the AOD is the (only) meaning of the 'son of perdition being revealed' in 2 Thes 2:3----that is still simultaneous, or nearly simultaneous, with the rapture of the overcomers.

From my reading (previous post of mine to this), those final 3 1/2 years are the Tribulation. Are the Great Tribulation.
The Tribulation, based on all the verses I can find, is 3 1/2 years long. Not 7 years.

I don't think it's impossible, in Scripture, that their temple might be rebuilt even before the last week of Daniel. Daniel 9 does not specify that the covenant initiates their animal sacrifices. Maybe the covenant will. I can see that. But regardless, I pretty much agree with your last paragraph : ) Which also indicates to me that the first 3 1/2 years is NOT tribulation. Thanks

Interesting. I never heard 2:13 used that way. Satan's throne is the World. Which is what I took 2:13 to represent. My idea of his nationality is based on Dan 8:9. Being Greece. But since Turkey at John's time was Greek, then that doesn't necessarily conflict with your thought. (I would say that Antichrist is definitely not ISIS, not Islamic, not Islam----though the spirit of all those is antichrist.) Nor should he be Arab or Turk. Your use of Rv 13:2----------I do not understand

cerialis · Jun 28, 2015

Just to reiterate the point again, the word 'rapture' does not appear anywhere in the Holy Bible; it is a word which is being used to describe the heavenly anointed little flock [144,000] (Luke 12:32; Revelation 14:1) on their raising up from death to meet the Lord in the air as heavenly immortal creatures in their recreation in the same manner and likeness of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:49-54; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

This event occurred as prophesied in Daniel 12:1 when Jesus in his capacity as Michael the champion of Almighty God stood up at the end of the Appointed Times of the nations [607-1914 C.E.] when there was war in the heavens and World War on the earth covering a period of thirty years resulting in the casting of Satan down to the vicinity of the earth; thereby cleansing the heavenly Temple of God as foreshadowed two thousand years ago when Jesus after reaching the age of thirty, cleansed his Father's earthly Temple.

So there we are, 'rapture' complete.

Now we steadily approach the great tribulation as we draw near to the dawn of the Sabbath Millennium.

Alexander

flob · Jun 28, 2015

Jesus isn't Michael.
Nor have God's redeemed or overcomers been taken up yet.
(Except for Enoch, Elijah and Moses apparently---though for further
purpose at the end).
The Great Tribulation (the climactic winnowing and battle) depends on rapture.
Not because rapture in and of itself is anything. But simply because God finally will
get His finished Bride and Body in remnant form(s), and thus then have the base or ground
or 'ability' (per His original purpose of working via man and committing His dominion to men),
to oust Satan from any access to heaven (Rev 12), limiting him and his fellow rebels to the earth
(Rev 13), thus beginning the process of the 'wrap-up,' the end. In which Satan is ultimately limited
further: to the abyss; used for one final purging; and then eternally trashed and imprisoned to the lake
of fire.

tanach · Jun 28, 2015

I love to think that I would escape the Tribulation by being raptured before it all starts, who wouldnt?. But the Bible
doesnt support the idea. In fact all through it talks about Christians facing tribulation and persecution. There is not one
passage that says that Christans will be taken anywhere before the tribulation. The whole idea was invented in the 19th century when there were a number of cults springing up ie JWs Mormons SDA ect. None of the Church Fathers believed in it
and a few of them knew John. Jesus prayed that we would not be taken from the world but be kept from the evil one.
The Pre Trib position relies on reading into passages things that ae not there. Many who hold the Pre Trib view do believe that Christ will return invisibly as the world will not see him. Jesus said he would come as a thief but told us to watch
if he supposed to come at any moment and snatch us all up what are we supposed to be watching for?

flob · Jun 29, 2015

You may prefer that I not try to respond. Since i'm convinced of both pre- And end-trib raptures, in the Bible. Both exist.
Both will happen. Both are true. Both are Scriptural. There's more than one rapture. As I see it, that's why both sides can be so entrenched. Because both aspects are true. And it's only blindness and ignorance that somehow prevents them from seeing the full picture. Actually: it's a spiritual matter. Like seeing Christ, or truths in the word. It can be there in black and white. And yet folks ......... can't see it. It's because of our general lack of experiential knowledge---experience---of Christ.
In other words, early rapture is a reward. A prize. Hence the watching. And praying. Luke 21:36. It is not a given that one will receive it. Tanach is correct: it's illogical to watch and pray for something that is a given. There's no need. And so the teaching that rapture is only pre-trib, and that all believers, regardless of their growth or condition, are taken, regardless of whether they watch and pray.........but only depending on whether they're born again.........is incorrect. Is false. Is mistaken. And maybe 'pre-tribbers' have no malice, no evil motive to teach this, in fact it's a kind of 'nice' teaching----but it's simply short. Inadequate. Not true. But still----why should 'pre-tribbers' be so dogmatic, so entrenched? I feel it is because of the prevalent truth of the Reformation. That we sinners are justified by faith alone. To receive the eternal destiny, the eternal birth, the second birth, the new birth. (Yes, many, probably predominantly 'post-tribbers,' such as here at this site, deny justification by faith and eternal salvation.) The truth of justification by the efficacious blood and work of Christ alone is so precious, so true, so Christian, so grace----that many think that any suggestion of reward, of limited pre-trib rapture, is somehow denying or compromising justification by faith alone.

I guess, numerically, I am End-trib more than pre-. In that more saints will be left behind from the pre-trib rapture, than will be taken. And yet, I cannot deny the pre-trib rapture (nor do I want to), not only because of its presence in the Bible; but also because of the nature of most 'post-tribbers' I've met. Who are equally blind, equally dogmatic, as the 'pre-tribbers.' And can be even blinder---in regard to so many other truths in the word----which seem to go hand in hand with 'post-trib-only.' Namely blind denial of the literal Millenium, blindness as to the meaning of grace, blindness as to the very nature of salvation--justification unto life, justification unto regeneration. And who also, instead of keying in on Scripture, use inane, inaccurate, and stale Catholicism-arguments such as 'the church fathers didn't say this,' 'Isn't it chicken for Christians to escape tribulation?' 'pre-trib = 2 returns,' 'Darby was a cult,' all kinds of utter, even ridiculous, inaccuracies. As well as exhibiting a strong Pelagian tendency

GaryA · Jun 29, 2015

flob said:

You may prefer that I not try to respond. Since i'm convinced of both pre- And end-trib raptures, in the Bible. Both exist.
Both will happen. Both are true. Both are Scriptural. There's more than one rapture. As I see it, that's why both sides can be so entrenched. Because both aspects are true. And it's only blindness and ignorance that somehow prevents them from seeing the full picture. Actually: it's a spiritual matter. Like seeing Christ, or truths in the word. It can be there in black and white. And yet folks ......... can't see it. It's because of our general lack of experiential knowledge---experience---of Christ.
In other words, early rapture is a reward. A prize. Hence the watching. And praying. Luke 21:36. It is not a given that one will receive it. Tanach is correct: it's illogical to watch and pray for something that is a given. There's no need. And so the teaching that rapture is only pre-trib, and that all believers, regardless of their growth or condition, are taken, regardless of whether they watch and pray.........but only depending on whether they're born again.........is incorrect. Is false. Is mistaken. And maybe 'pre-tribbers' have no malice, no evil motive to teach this, in fact it's a kind of 'nice' teaching----but it's simply short. Inadequate. Not true. But still----why should 'pre-tribbers' be so dogmatic, so entrenched? I feel it is because of the prevalent truth of the Reformation. That we sinners are justified by faith alone. To receive the eternal destiny, the eternal birth, the second birth, the new birth. (Yes, many, probably predominantly 'post-tribbers,' such as here at this site, deny justification by faith and eternal salvation.) The truth of justification by the efficacious blood and work of Christ alone is so precious, so true, so Christian, so grace----that many think that any suggestion of reward, of limited pre-trib rapture, is somehow denying or compromising justification by faith alone.

I guess, numerically, I am End-trib more than pre-. In that more saints will be left behind from the pre-trib rapture, than will be taken. And yet, I cannot deny the pre-trib rapture (nor do I want to), not only because of its presence in the Bible; but also because of the nature of most 'post-tribbers' I've met. Who are equally blind, equally dogmatic, as the 'pre-tribbers.' And can be even blinder---in regard to so many other truths in the word----which seem to go hand in hand with 'post-trib-only.' Namely blind denial of the literal Millenium, blindness as to the meaning of grace, blindness as to the very nature of salvation--justification unto life, justification unto regeneration. And who also, instead of keying in on Scripture, use inane, inaccurate, and stale Catholicism-arguments such as 'the church fathers didn't say this,' 'Isn't it chicken for Christians to escape tribulation?' 'pre-trib = 2 returns,' 'Darby was a cult,' all kinds of utter, even ridiculous, inaccuracies. As well as exhibiting a strong Pelagian tendency

Okay -- now -- how about some scripture to back up a 2-rapture End Times Scenario...?

flob · Jun 29, 2015

post #2976 mentioned both.
Lk 21:36 pre-
1 Thes 4 end- (and also implying the pre- because of the nonredunant word 'remain')

Rv 14:1-5 pre- per the sequence of the chapter
14:14-16 end- per the sequence of the chapter

12:5 pre-
12:6 end- implied because she is taken care of on earth for the duration of the Great Trib.

3:10 pre- Like Luke 21:36 (and Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5), a conditional reward promise of rapture (escape)
7:9-17 pre- per the sequence of the seven seals.

16:15 end- (warning still to walk, for the sake of being taken. Implying, per the typology in the OT, that there is possibly even a 'gleanings' rapture: following nature and field-crops--1 Cor 3:9-- firstfruit, harvest, gleanings)

Mt 24:40-44 pre- (pre- conditional rapture, based on Christian walk and life: watching and praying.
Also the end- rapture implied by the believers who are left behind from the pre-
Those who 'remain,' 1 Thes 4:15, 17.)

2 Thes 2:1 both raptures. In that the man of lawlessness is prophesied in a specific way both before the Great Trib begins, as well as once it has begun, Dan 9:24-27; Mt 24:15; 2 Thes 2:4; Rv 13:3-4, 14-15)

Rv 11:11-12 -end trib. The 2 witnesses, Elijah and Moses I believe, complete their ministry which coincides with the entire Great Trib, 1260 days, 11:3; ----complete it by martyrdom followed by resurrection followed by rapture

tanach · Jun 29, 2015

Flob. If you look at the history of the church Christians had always believed in a Second Coming, up until the 19th century when some started to believe in a second and third coming. Although Pre Tribs claim that the Jesus hovers over the earth like some kind of Helecopter rescue Pilot but doesn't land. Now you seem to be proposing that there will be two raptures.
In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul explains the second coming quite clearly. He says there will be a falling away, The Antichrist will come and declare himself God and THEN Christ will return. No mention of secret raptures there at all. I recommend a book called The Hope of Christs Second Coming by Samuel Tregelles. He was a leading bible Scholar in the 19th century and an expert in the Hebrew and Greek languages. In this book he attacks what was then the novel idea of the Pre Trib Rapture.
I got a copy from Amazon at a very low price.

biblicaltruth15 · Jun 29, 2015

Elin and my fellow friends. Listen, for i have come to show you the truth concerning the mystery which you all seek to know. The holy spirit has revealed this information unto me. Now i say, it doesn´t matter what you think of me because in the records of the bible, God´s true anointed were hardly accepted and most of them were not what the people were expecting. Believe me if you like but today, i reveal to you a mystery. "RAPTURE" is an almost simultaneous ultimate ecstatic and miserable state of humans in a massive number and this event is known as the "Harvest of the Earth". THE RAPTURE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE. IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED!! It was fulfilled in two different periord of time. There were TWO RAPTURES. The first occured in the 5TH CENTURY and the second in the 20TH CENTURY not so long ago and this countinues for ever. If you or anyone wish to know the truth concerning any mystery in the bible, contact me and i believe God Almighty, The Revealer of all mysteries will show us because i believe that is what He wants me to do here.

biblicaltruth15 · Jun 29, 2015

I also like to inform you all that the "RAPTURES" took place by people taken up just as Paul described it in God´s word, the bible. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

popeye · Jun 29, 2015

tanach said:

Yes we all know Lot stayed in sodom while the Judgement came rolling in.
Then Abraham showed up "postrib"

To seal the deal on how God never delivers,Noah built his ship after the flood,as is God's wisdom and pattern(rolleyes) of showing up after judgement to deliver.

When does the rapture occur?

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