Saved by Grace through Faith

[Stephen63]

Im not sure what the question is that you are asking me...."was I wrong". Wrong about what? I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate about me other than I believe that a person who has the Holy Spirit living in him or her is gonna continue to travel on the path that they were on. If we can get to a point in our conversation where you will tell me where you stand vs where I stand, then we might be able to have a fruitful discussion. So I am telling you, if you wanna have a discussion that is how I would like to be treated.

Here it is the obvious statement:

We do have different views..... You believe in an eternal security that no matter how wicked one lives they'll always be saved & I believe in a different eternal security that states my salvation is secure only if I continue to believe in Christ..... I can get offended & walk away.

1 Corinthians 8:10-11 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [SUP]11 [/SUP]And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

This means just what it says. Offended christians can backslide, losing everything.

Luke 21:33-36 (KJV) [SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. [SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. [SUP]35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

"Standing before the Son of man" is the Judgement seat of Christ, for which the righteous will be judged. All the wicked, including christians that left their first love, will stand before the Great White Throne judgement.

We both believe in eternal security, just not the same one.

Now, I'll ask you again..... is that what you believe? Was I correct or not?

 

[Sirk]

Here it is the obvious statement:

Now, I'll ask you again..... is that what you believe? Was I correct or not?

Just as there are verses that indicate the opposite. Have you ever thought about the notion that God intentionally allowed for question in regards to the security of a believer so that they would be inclined to take it seriously as they worked out THEIR OWN salvation with fear and trembling. If you wanna look at scripture with such a narrow field of view....I respectfully leave you to it.

 

[Stephen63]

Just as there are verses that indicate the opposite. Have you ever thought about the notion that God intentionally allowed for question in regards to the security of a believer so that they would be inclined to take it seriously as they worked out THEIR OWN salvation with fear and trembling. If you wanna look at scripture with such a narrow field of view....I respectfully leave you to it.

You would think by now I would get a straight answer.... Is what I said correct or not?!?

You could say "yes, but there's more to it than that", or no, & explain why. It isn't a loaded question, sheesh! I ask to be corrected if I'm wrong, & can't even get it!

 

[Sirk]

You would think by now I would get a straight answer.... Is what I said correct or not?!?

You could say "yes, but there's more to it than that", or no, & explain why. It isn't a loaded question, sheesh! I ask to be corrected if I'm wrong, & can't even get it!

The problem is that it isn't as black and white as you are making it out to be. That's the whole point that escapes you. Salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus. Why are you so intent on taking up the offense of someone else. The only reason I can think is to take the focus off of your own stuff.

 

[Stephen63]

The problem is that it isn't as black and white as you are making it out to be. That's the whole point that escapes you. Salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus. Why are you so intent on taking up the offense of someone else. The only reason I can think is to take the focus off of your own stuff.

Isn't as black & white? The Bible is to be literally interpreted unless proven to be symbolic, & that's not black & white?

It IS true that many look at it as gray..... that way it leaves scriptures totally open to interpretation. So much for my answer.

 

[Sirk]

Isn't as black & white? The Bible is to be literally interpreted unless proven to be symbolic, & that's not black & white?

It IS true that many look at it as gray..... that way it leaves scriptures totally open to interpretation. So much for my answer.

What is it that you are looking for? To tell you that you are right...that a person that has been purchased by Jesus will be sold back to slavery? There is plenty of scripture that disagrees with your precious doctrine. Do you consider yourself some kind of high priest that determines a person standing with God? Cuz that's the position it seems that you place yourself in.

 

[Stephen63]

What is it that you are looking for? To tell you that you are right...that a person that has been purchased by Jesus will be sold back to slavery? There is plenty of scripture that disagrees with your precious doctrine. Do you consider yourself some kind of high priest that determines a person standing with God? Cuz that's the position it seems that you place yourself in.

We do have different views..... You believe in an eternal security that no matter how wicked one lives they'll always be saved & I believe in a different eternal security that states my salvation is secure only if I continue to believe in Christ..... I can get offended & walk away.

YOU SAID you didn't like me telling you what you believed..... yet you won't touch whether or not I was right. You keep going round in circles refusing to answer a simple question. I'm not the one needing to explain myself, so I'm done.....

 

[Sirk]

YOU SAID you didn't like me telling you what you believed..... yet you won't touch whether or not I was right. You keep going round in circles refusing to answer a simple question. I'm not the one needing to explain myself, so I'm done.....

Promise!?!? Lol

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Please people, please...........this is not a Grace vs. Works discussion thread.........I want to explore the partnership/fitting together of Grace and Faith. So please try and stay within the parameters of the thread. Thank you.

Early this morning as I was saying my morning prayers, I thought of the passage in Ephesians about being saved by grace, and as I was thinking of it, a thought occurred to me. Having read literally hundreds of comments posted here concerning this, I seem to recall that the vast majority of them usually end up being worded:

"We are saved by Grace...........not works"

And while I certainly agree that we are saved by grace, it seems to me that when we do not include the whole passage from Ephesians, we do Faith a disservice.

(KJV)
Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast.

(CJB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast.

As I read these, I see that faith is surely present, yet it IS NOT a "work." So, I'm wondering if "faith" as described here is like the "portal or bridge" through which God's saving Grace flows from His Throne to man?

There are so very many Scriptures speaking of faith and it's importance for the believer............walk by faith and not by sight, the just shall live by faith, your faith has made you whole..........and many, many more.

It just seems to me when we are going to post a comment regarding salvation and from whence it comes, we should use the whole of the Scripture.......and not omit faith.

Hope this makes sense..........

John Gill said it this way:

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, ( John 6:65 ) ( Philippians 1:29 ) and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

found here:

Ephesians 2:8 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition...

We were without hope before GOD sent his WORD to the earth in the flesh(manifested to the five senses of man)GOD is holy and man was not holy so then there could be no relationship between GOD and man as long as GOD looked at man with all that sin.

Man could not clean the inside and to worship GOD you must worship him in spirit and in TRUTH

ONly GODs perfect standard of righteousness would be accepted by GOD for mans sin to be atoned for before we could be sons of GOD and receive eternal life.

GOD gave dominion of the earth to man so for his WORD to be true JESUS had to come into this world as a man.

And GOD will only accept perfection and JESUS was that perfect sacrifice for man.

In the beginning GOD told Adam and Eve what would happen if they sinned but he never left us and in the fullness of time made available once again to us a chance for eternal life.

John 3:16

Now when GOD sees us he sees JESUS

We have access to this Grace through faith.

And I believe that GOD provided the Grace for us and he provided the faith that we needed(Grace through faith)
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.

I hope someone got some revelation.
It is a good thread.
I think the topic is getting deeper and evolving.

 

[Stephen63]

What is it that you are looking for? To tell you that you are right...that a person that has been purchased by Jesus will be sold back to slavery? There is plenty of scripture that disagrees with your precious doctrine. Do you consider yourself some kind of high priest that determines a person standing with God? Cuz that's the position it seems that you place yourself in.

Yep, I'm done..... showing everybody what a piece of work you really are. I said nothing personally bad about you at all, yet what you say above shows an unprovoked attack on my character. That's your true colors.

While I don't agree with OSAS, I do know the majority of them mean well. They wouldn't dare pull such a stunt as you just did. They have better standards than that.

Matthew 5:9 (KJV) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Busted.

 

[Crustyone]

Seed_Time_Harvest, I think I understand what you are saying. God gives us the faith to have courage to stand up for Him and not back down even in the face of suffering. I assume it is this show of courage, as the love of our Father, that is judged later. Do you think I am on track?

 

[Sirk]

Yep, I'm done..... showing everybody what a piece of work you really are. I said nothing personally bad about you at all, yet what you say above shows an unprovoked attack on my character. That's your true colors.

While I don't agree with OSAS, I do know the majority of them mean well. They wouldn't dare pull such a stunt as you just did. They have better standards than that.

Matthew 5:9 (KJV) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Busted.

If you say so "peacemaker". Lol.

 

[Sirk]

And here I thought you held a different view than this. Not sure why I did but I am glad to see we are in agreement. I always like to say that good works are a symptom of a transformed life.

We do have different views..... You believe in an eternal security that no matter how wicked one lives they'll always be saved & I believe in a different eternal security that states my salvation is secure only if I continue to believe in Christ..... I can get offended & walk away.

1 Corinthians 8:10-11 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [SUP]11 [/SUP]And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

This means just what it says. Offended christians can backslide, losing everything.

Luke 21:33-36 (KJV) [SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. [SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. [SUP]35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

"Standing before the Son of man" is the Judgement seat of Christ, for which the righteous will be judged. All the wicked, including christians that left their first love, will stand before the Great White Throne judgement.

We both believe in eternal security, just not the same one.

Well thanks for telling me what I believe and throwing the olive branch I extended to you back in my face.

Just thought I'd congratulate you on your peacemaking skills with this reminder of how you treated a person who was looking for common ground with you. Now it is I that am done and I won't break my promise like you have done....twice now.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Seed_Time_Harvest, I think I understand what you are saying. God gives us the faith to have courage to stand up for Him and not back down even in the face of suffering. I assume it is this show of courage, as the love of our Father, that is judged later. Do you think I am on track?

The devil tries to get you to focus on self by influencing you to focus on your five senses(what you can see,touch,hear,smell or feel)


Faith pleases GOD.

The devil wants you focused on self so he can use fear of death on you and he does this by keeping you focused on sense knowledge (five senses)(the law)but if you know that if you die you will go be with the LORD then fear evaporates

 

[valiant]

Just curious to your interpretation does John 3:16 have a condition?

no there is no condition. just a description of how God saves.

 

[fredjames]

"We are saved by Grace ....................... and not by works."

What Apostle Paul was 'testifying' is, People cannot be saved by their works(good deeds), in order to earn acceptance from GOD.

But only by HIS Gospel, especially given to the Gentiles, that is, 'By Grace through faith, HIS gift', to them.

Before i became a Christian, (sanctified in the 'path' of the New Covenant/Testament in 'practice' and 'abiding' and 'bear much fruit'), by the 'influence' of 'common' others, i try to live a good person's life, for GOD's acceptance of me, as 'fairly good' gentleman. i was in 'deception' of the 'heart', until GOD revealed to me Grace and Truth and 'sanctified' me in the 'path' of the New Covenant/Testament.

Please let us all not forget that we have been 'saved', by Grace through faith and have been placed in the 'wilderness/world' and were called and given and made the written New Covenant/Testament of GOD through CHRIST, in order for us to 'practice' and to 'abide' and 'bear much fruit', according to them, while being 'temporarly' in this 'wilderness/world'.

GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

"We are saved by Grace ....................... and not by works."

What Apostle Paul was 'testifying' is, People cannot be saved by their works(good deeds), in order to earn acceptance from GOD.

But only by HIS Gospel, especially given to the Gentiles, that is, 'By Grace through faith, HIS gift', to them.

Before i became a Christian, (sanctified in the 'path' of the New Covenant/Testament in 'practice' and 'abiding' and 'bear much fruit'), by the 'influence' of 'common' others, i try to live a good person's life, for GOD's acceptance of me, as 'fairly good' gentleman. i was in 'deception' of the 'heart', until GOD revealed to me Grace and Truth and 'sanctified' me in the 'path' of the New Covenant/Testament.

Please let us all not forget that we have been 'saved', by Grace through faith and have been placed in the 'wilderness/world' and were called and given and made the written New Covenant/Testament of GOD through CHRIST, in order for us to 'practice' and to 'abide' and 'bear much fruit', according to them, while being 'temporarly' in this 'wilderness/world'.

GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

we were provided the Grace and also the faith needed to receive this Grace.
Do you agree with this?

 

[Budman]

Please people, please...........this is not a Grace vs. Works discussion thread.........I want to explore the partnership/fitting together of Grace and Faith. So please try and stay within the parameters of the thread

So much for that, huh?

I'm sorry. Carry on...

 

[seed_time_harvest]

no there is no condition. just a description of how God saves.

John 3:16
king James version(kjv)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I might be misunderstanding your meaning of the word condition.

When GOD told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed/didn't believe his WORD they would die was believing a condition?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think eph 2 can not be taken without including vs 10 also.

It is by grace we have been (past tense) saved through (by the means of (faith) and not of ourselves, it is the gift of God (something which can not be earned) not of works (not by anything we have done, are doing or will ever do), lest any one should boast (be puffed up in pride, take credit)

for we (those who are saved by grace) are HIS WORKMANSHIP created IN CHRIST JESUS for GOOD WORKS.

These good works mentioned in vs 10 are the works of faith I have seen mentioned in this thread.

The question is, what is our faith (assurance or trust) in.

God, and his gift.
Us and our works.

Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. So we must ask. how much faith does it take to save us?