Forgive Others or, You'll Go to Hell! (false doctrine)
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The title of this thread addresses an issue where people think they must forgive out of obligation instead of love, out of a sense of necessity lest they be not forgiven. The thread title does not call Jesus a liar, it confronts a false doctrine that people impose upon believers to keep them oppressed by rules and regulations insisting they forgive or else. It is condemnation, it attacks their very confidence to go to the Father, feeling guilty.
1 John 3:21 - Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence towards God.
I don't think you read the OP or even the following posts... Someone can take something Jesus says, take it out of context and make a [false] doctrine out of it. Which is the case here for the forgiveness of our sins for the children of God. We know our forgiveness lies in His blood, that is the Gospel. That is part of Communion. We don't go to Communion remembering that we are forgiven because we forgive others. No, we are forgiven because of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, His blood.
1 John 3:21 - Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence towards God.
I don't think you read the OP or even the following posts... Someone can take something Jesus says, take it out of context and make a [false] doctrine out of it. Which is the case here for the forgiveness of our sins for the children of God. We know our forgiveness lies in His blood, that is the Gospel. That is part of Communion. We don't go to Communion remembering that we are forgiven because we forgive others. No, we are forgiven because of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, His blood.
My understanding of real love is thyat forgiving is natural, as if when placed on a cross to die an agonizing death one were able to forgive the perpetrators whil they were doing it. I would love to have that perfect love for all. I have forgiven much in my lifetime, but never so much as does our Lord, Jesus Christ.
By the way, love may be teh impetus for us all to do good, but never does it oblige.. Forgiving even our worst enemy is part of our due to Jesus Christ. If this is not true in your understanding, you understanding is incomplete, and prayer is needed. God bless you always in Jesus Christ.....
By the way, love may be teh impetus for us all to do good, but never does it oblige.. Forgiving even our worst enemy is part of our due to Jesus Christ. If this is not true in your understanding, you understanding is incomplete, and prayer is needed. God bless you always in Jesus Christ.....
E
hmmm...actually, I'm from the other end of the spectrum...the church I grew up in basically did not even talk about forgiveness but folks generally...at least as far as I knew...behaved in a 'Christian' manner and the elders dealt with whatever needed their attention...actually, I liked that way of doing things...no actual pastor per se, but elders who were accountable and took turns speaking
years later though, I certainly had to deal with the forgiveness issue and I picked up a copy of Neil Anderson's book, 'The Bondage Breaker' and that book really helped me and actually I will still refer to it from time to time
I know alot of Christians will poo poo the idea that a believer can be demonized...notice I did not say possessed because that is not even the consideration...but he explains our position IN Christ and how believers get themself in trouble not understanding that...well anyway, I thank God for that book.
I am very conservative in my approach to the spiritual world, but it is real and their are consequences even when you are ignorant of the devil's schemes.
Frankly, I think twisting the word is rather evil and taking any amount of Christ's sacrifice and somehow trying to add to it, is anything but godly.
And subtle for these things is the right word.
years later though, I certainly had to deal with the forgiveness issue and I picked up a copy of Neil Anderson's book, 'The Bondage Breaker' and that book really helped me and actually I will still refer to it from time to time
I know alot of Christians will poo poo the idea that a believer can be demonized...notice I did not say possessed because that is not even the consideration...but he explains our position IN Christ and how believers get themself in trouble not understanding that...well anyway, I thank God for that book.
I am very conservative in my approach to the spiritual world, but it is real and their are consequences even when you are ignorant of the devil's schemes.
Frankly, I think twisting the word is rather evil and taking any amount of Christ's sacrifice and somehow trying to add to it, is anything but godly.
And subtle for these things is the right word.
E
I am so sorry you fail to avail yourself of the love of God and imagine Him somehow as some sort of divine retribution agent that takes delight in punishing people.
Worse, are those who assume that role in His Name even though He has not called anyone to do that.
The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin. He does not need you to cast blame and doubt on those who call God Father and who know His love and fall down on their knees and thank Him from the bottom of their heart for His mercy, grace and love!
You also seem to suffer from either poor reading ability or poor comprehension ability because I have obviously been in favor of forgivness as evidenced by my posts.
Perhaps if you were not in such a hurry to poke your finger in what you do not understand, perhaps if you allowed God to reveal what He is actually saying by His Spirit, you would see that you do not get extra brownie points for telling basically most people in this forum, that they are wrong.
Let's face it...you just took offence at my gentle rebuke. However, God's rebuke for those who twist His word is well documented within the pages of the Bible, with special attention in the section known as the Old Testament
Worse, are those who assume that role in His Name even though He has not called anyone to do that.
The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin. He does not need you to cast blame and doubt on those who call God Father and who know His love and fall down on their knees and thank Him from the bottom of their heart for His mercy, grace and love!
You also seem to suffer from either poor reading ability or poor comprehension ability because I have obviously been in favor of forgivness as evidenced by my posts.
Perhaps if you were not in such a hurry to poke your finger in what you do not understand, perhaps if you allowed God to reveal what He is actually saying by His Spirit, you would see that you do not get extra brownie points for telling basically most people in this forum, that they are wrong.
Let's face it...you just took offence at my gentle rebuke. However, God's rebuke for those who twist His word is well documented within the pages of the Bible, with special attention in the section known as the Old Testament
P
You have presented your argument completely out of sorts.
It absolutely is a must do or go to hell thing.
You are right, we do it out of love because we obey Christ's two commandments, but we must not let it go undone. That is why he spells it out.
We can love our neighbor as required, but we must know what Christ expects us to do. When He tells us, we surely do it out of love, but if we fail we are doomed.
You present as tho it won't keep us out of heaven. Do you actually think God is going to allow dissension or angst in heaven? If we disobey Him, He surely isn't going to want to spend eternity with someone that doesn't listen.
That alone tells you it is a requirement for heaven.
Heaven will be harmonious, completely. Disobedience will not be allowed.
It absolutely is a must do or go to hell thing.
You are right, we do it out of love because we obey Christ's two commandments, but we must not let it go undone. That is why he spells it out.
We can love our neighbor as required, but we must know what Christ expects us to do. When He tells us, we surely do it out of love, but if we fail we are doomed.
You present as tho it won't keep us out of heaven. Do you actually think God is going to allow dissension or angst in heaven? If we disobey Him, He surely isn't going to want to spend eternity with someone that doesn't listen.
That alone tells you it is a requirement for heaven.
Heaven will be harmonious, completely. Disobedience will not be allowed.
K
You have your order of events wrong and I do not believe the Lord takes delight in punishing people, so please do not keep saying things I never said !!!
The Lord does not delight in punishing people which is why through the epistles of His Apostles in the bible He gives us believers many of warnings on how we can not continue to walk so that their sins will not lead them to eternal death.
The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin is correct and that works when we first put our faith in the Lord, and He leads us to repent and turn from our sinful ways. Then the Holy Spirit works in us and through us to continue walking properly, and when we see another brother or sister in the faith walking immorally we are charged to call them out and show them by His word how to turn from those ways.
If you are going to say we do not have this right then you are going against what the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 18:15-17 and by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5. You keep saying we don't have this right, but the bible says we do, so I will continue to believe the bible !!!
Then you come with more insults which is clearly not from the fruits of the Spirit, and you are the one who said not forgiving is not a form of hate. I came back that unforgiving comes from a unloving nature, which is not of God because God is love !!!
God has revealed what He is saying to me by His Holy Spirit, which is why I give the word just as Paul did because this is what the Holy Spirit has guided me to do. Apostle Paul was light hearted all the time in his teachings as he constantly warned believers of how they were walking in the faith and what would happen if they continued that way.
Paul even told the Galatians that left the gospel of Christ to follow those false teachings of justification by the law, that they no longer had remission of their sins by the Lord (Christ has become of no effect) and they have fallen from grace (No longer under God's grace). You can not get salvation without either of those, and James confirms this in James 5:19-20.
L
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[TD]I Read this in my morning email., It goes along with this topic about the differences of how grace works under the new covenant.
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Grace the Power of the Gospel
The Gospel is the most basic, foundational message of the New Testament, yet it's the most misunderstood. Paul made it simple, using the words "Gospel" and "grace" interchangeably (Acts 20:24 and Gal. 1:6) and saying they both are the means by which we are saved (Rom. 1:16 and Eph. 2:8).
As a whole, today's religious system doesn't preach this. Many preachers mix grace with the Law, saying, "Oh, no, we don't want to give people a license to sin." Last I checked, people were sinning without a license! You can't balance grace with the Law. If you do, it won't be the Gospel at all.
It takes a supernatural revelation from the Holy Spirit to be able to understand this. Once you do, it'll transform the way you view God, the way you relate to God, and the way youreceive from God. Romans was written to explain the Gospel so that anybody could understand it.
If you're going to have a Christian walk that cannot be shaken, it starts with having the proper foundation. You don't need to look any further than the truths Paul laid down in Romans. When you really get hold of these, you'll be set free from sin, not free to sin.You'll wind up living holier accidentally than you ever have on purpose. You'll serve God out of love stricter and stronger than you ever would have out of legalism.
Jesus said you will know the truth and the truth will make you free (John 8:32). It's not truth that sets you free; it's the truth you know that sets you free. But before you can know it, you've got to hear it. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom. 10:17).
E
Guess what?
I will not be responding to your posts anymore as you seem to delight in preaching at people instead of listening
You don't have a clue what is in my heart or mind...but God does and that is what actually matters
you are simply offended and that is why you state I insulted you
you twisted my post and yet I should ignore that in order to please you?
honey, you are not Paul. You don't give the word as Paul did. Your word does not mean anything to me. You are not my teacher and not the Holy Spirit
respectfully, this forum is for discussion...not condemning people and twisting their words so that you can condemn them multiple times
I don't know how you think the Holy Spirit is leading you when you cannot even understand what I wrote in simple language
salut
I will not be responding to your posts anymore as you seem to delight in preaching at people instead of listening
You don't have a clue what is in my heart or mind...but God does and that is what actually matters
you are simply offended and that is why you state I insulted you
you twisted my post and yet I should ignore that in order to please you?
honey, you are not Paul. You don't give the word as Paul did. Your word does not mean anything to me. You are not my teacher and not the Holy Spirit
respectfully, this forum is for discussion...not condemning people and twisting their words so that you can condemn them multiple times
I don't know how you think the Holy Spirit is leading you when you cannot even understand what I wrote in simple language
salut
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Jn 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
Law= OT law of Moses
grace = NT law of Christ, the gospel
So in passages as Rom 6:14,15 when Paul says "not under the law, but under grace" Paul is telling his Christian Jewish readers they are not under "law" (the law of Moses) but under "grace" (the NT law of Christ) (Gal 6:2) the law which Paul said he was under (1 Cor 9:21). Grace therefore does not exclude law for Paul is simply using the term "law" to refer to the law of Moses and "grace" to refer to the law of Christ.
If grace got rid of law then no one would be a sinner for sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4 also Rom 4:15
There was grace under the OT laws, yet that did not exclude those OT laws (Deut 7:12) just as there is grace under Christ's NT law but that does not exclude Christ's "laws", (Jer 31:31-33).
It does not take a supernatural revelation of the Holy Spirit to understand this just reading...."Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ" (Eph 3:4)
L
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I get a lot of good material in my morning email that has to do with grace. I have noticed that many Christians are living without taking hold of grace. Living instead under law trying to please God by their works when the only way to please God is by faith in His Son Jesus finished work on the cross and giving all glory to Him for our daily walk as believers. Without Him, we can do nothing. As Jesus said, I am the vine, you are the branches.
The old covenant is not for the new testament believer who is instead under grace since Jesus died on the cross and made the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We do not live under the law, we live under grace. Another example of this is in the book of Job. Job was an old testament saint who didn't have a Mediator although he wished he did. The devil had a place to stand before God and condemn Adam's race. he cannot occupy that place today because Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. The devil can only accuse us from here in our minds and conscience. Jesus has given us the gift of no condemnation. Many Christians today do not know this. Grace explains how we can have righteousness without deserving it. Because Christ imputed His righteousness to us and our sin was imputed to Him. The only reason we have access to the Father is because of Jesus, not our good works or good conscience. Many believers do not take hold of what has been bought by the blood of Jesus.
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]The book of Job tells us that Satan came to God’s throne and complained about Job. (Job 1:6–12) God’s throne is the most holy place. So why did God allow Satan to come before Him?
Satan could come before God because Adam had given up his place when he bowed his knee to Satan in the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3) So Satan had the right to take Adam’s place and come before God.
But praise God, Jesus, the last Adam, has come! And the sprinkling of His blood has cleansed the things of heaven. (Hebrews 9:22–24) His blood has cleansed and redeemed the unclean place where Satan walked and stood before God. There remains, therefore, no place in heaven for Satan. He cannot come before God any more to accuse you.
Who then, is in God’s presence today? Jesus! He is there for us. (Hebrews 9:24) And since He is for us, “Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.” (Romans 8:34)
So what happened to Job cannot happen to you. Job longed for a mediator, but he had none. (Job 9:33) His dream is our reality. Today, we have Jesus as our Mediator making intercession for us! (1 Timothy 2:5)
However, since the devil cannot come before God any more, he comes to you on earth and accuses you in your conscience. His greatest tool is deception because he has no real power. (Colossians 2:15) He has to deceive you into thinking that God is against you, that He is angry with you because you have failed Him, or that your sickness or poverty is God’s punishment for your sins.
My friend, don’t fall for the devil’s lies. If it is God who justifies you, no one can bring a charge against you! Satan cannot come before God to accuse you. Instead, you have free access to God’s throne of grace to “obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need”. (Hebrews 4:16) Jesus’ holy blood has given you perfect standing in the presence of God!
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I get a lot of good material in my morning email that has to do with grace. I have noticed that many Christians are living without taking hold of grace. Living instead under law trying to please God by their works when the only way to please God is by faith in His Son Jesus finished work on the cross and giving all glory to Him for our daily walk as believers. Without Him, we can do nothing. As Jesus said, I am the vine, you are the branches.
The old covenant is not for the new testament believer who is instead under grace since Jesus died on the cross and made the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We do not live under the law, we live under grace. Another example of this is in the book of Job. Job was an old testament saint who didn't have a Mediator although he wished he did. The devil had a place to stand before God and condemn Adam's race. he cannot occupy that place today because Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. The devil can only accuse us from here in our minds and conscience. Jesus has given us the gift of no condemnation. Many Christians today do not know this. Grace explains how we can have righteousness without deserving it. Because Christ imputed His righteousness to us and our sin was imputed to Him. The only reason we have access to the Father is because of Jesus, not our good works or good conscience. Many believers do not take hold of what has been bought by the blood of Jesus.
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]The book of Job tells us that Satan came to God’s throne and complained about Job. (Job 1:6–12) God’s throne is the most holy place. So why did God allow Satan to come before Him?
Satan could come before God because Adam had given up his place when he bowed his knee to Satan in the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3) So Satan had the right to take Adam’s place and come before God.
But praise God, Jesus, the last Adam, has come! And the sprinkling of His blood has cleansed the things of heaven. (Hebrews 9:22–24) His blood has cleansed and redeemed the unclean place where Satan walked and stood before God. There remains, therefore, no place in heaven for Satan. He cannot come before God any more to accuse you.
Who then, is in God’s presence today? Jesus! He is there for us. (Hebrews 9:24) And since He is for us, “Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.” (Romans 8:34)
So what happened to Job cannot happen to you. Job longed for a mediator, but he had none. (Job 9:33) His dream is our reality. Today, we have Jesus as our Mediator making intercession for us! (1 Timothy 2:5)
However, since the devil cannot come before God any more, he comes to you on earth and accuses you in your conscience. His greatest tool is deception because he has no real power. (Colossians 2:15) He has to deceive you into thinking that God is against you, that He is angry with you because you have failed Him, or that your sickness or poverty is God’s punishment for your sins.
My friend, don’t fall for the devil’s lies. If it is God who justifies you, no one can bring a charge against you! Satan cannot come before God to accuse you. Instead, you have free access to God’s throne of grace to “obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need”. (Hebrews 4:16) Jesus’ holy blood has given you perfect standing in the presence of God!
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