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Yep . . . because the heart of an alcoholic that has their faith in Christ has the desire to quit - and regardless of how many times he has to start over . . . that desire never wavers. Does God see his struggle? Of course, God sees his struggles and that is when he says - My grace is sufficient. God knows what is really in a person's heart - we, as humans, do not see the struggles within and often times - our attitude is: Well, give it to God and just stop! Easy for us to say - but harder for someone in addiction to do.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom. 7:19
These verses are very applicable . . . That is the battle - old man nature vs. new man nature. Are we to "choose" to walk by the Spirit? Of course, and I would say that the majority of the time most of us do but there are times when we don't.
O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death . . . . I thank God that when Christ returns he will totally deliver me from this body of death either through the resurrection or his gathering me to him in the air, in my new glorified body!!!
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom. 7:19
These verses are very applicable . . . That is the battle - old man nature vs. new man nature. Are we to "choose" to walk by the Spirit? Of course, and I would say that the majority of the time most of us do but there are times when we don't.
O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death . . . . I thank God that when Christ returns he will totally deliver me from this body of death either through the resurrection or his gathering me to him in the air, in my new glorified body!!!
We may have 2 minutes of a fleeting thought - we may have 5 minutes where we may have lied - that is a total of 7 minutes out of a 24 hour period. The 15 hour period we walk in the Spirit . . . We have stopped during the day and talked to our Father - saying we are sorry and accepting his forgiveness . . .Okay that day is done - Can't bring that day back to undue any of it - but you took care of everything by saying you were sorry and asking forgiveness - you can't even bring it back to God's remembrance for he has forgotten it.
Next day comes along - oops about 10 minutes was spent being angry, about 30 minutes was spent using your office's copy paper printing up things for yourself, then you used their staples and/or paper clips, now add stealing to your list of offences, then you spend an hour upset with your children or your spouse for something they did . . . the list goes on and on. These may be little trivial things to some but they are not what Christ would do therefore (to the sinless perfectionist) it is wrong! I have spent what? an hour and 40 minutes in my old man nature . . . the rest of the time I walked by the Spirit. Now I go to bed - I remember about the supplies at work I used, ask forgiveness, I remember the attitude of heart I had against my children and/or spouse, I ask forgiveness but I forget about the 10 minutes I spent angry . . . Am I going to hell?
Is this how it works?
Or is any victory we have due to our faith in Jesus Christ?
Next day comes along - oops about 10 minutes was spent being angry, about 30 minutes was spent using your office's copy paper printing up things for yourself, then you used their staples and/or paper clips, now add stealing to your list of offences, then you spend an hour upset with your children or your spouse for something they did . . . the list goes on and on. These may be little trivial things to some but they are not what Christ would do therefore (to the sinless perfectionist) it is wrong! I have spent what? an hour and 40 minutes in my old man nature . . . the rest of the time I walked by the Spirit. Now I go to bed - I remember about the supplies at work I used, ask forgiveness, I remember the attitude of heart I had against my children and/or spouse, I ask forgiveness but I forget about the 10 minutes I spent angry . . . Am I going to hell?
Is this how it works?
Or is any victory we have due to our faith in Jesus Christ?
J
Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 23:25-26 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 23:25-26 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
J
What is most disheartening is how the basic gospel is refuted and bickered over, the same points made, to no end, thread after thread, involving Sunday School understandings being refuted. This sinless perfection concept of any but Jesus Christ is ridiculous, the very concept a nonexistent reality, even in the secular world. But it seems all anybody wants to discuss here. Works and law versus grace.
This thread was meant to shine a light on the chastisement aspect of scripture, and it's relation to being children of God, something I'd not seen brought up yet, with regard to eternal security and the firm position of the believer in Christ, as children of God's family. But that quickly devolved into a repeat performance of all the other threads.
If one brings up things like Ezekiel, the temple therein, the millennium, Revelation, the New Jerusalem, the question of the mystery of iniquity, the believer's "epignosis" and liberty that transcends debating legalisms: such a thread will die, pronto, at best get some Preterist claiming the Bible never says what it says. Is it Bible discussion, to constantly discuss what the Bible is not? Will the trollish repetition subside any, after 10,000 more posts the same, 20,000, or 50,000? Is there a point where anybody moves on, to deeper riches?
Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
Perhaps God doesn't permit here, that it will never be resolved whether the milk is whole, 2% or skimmed?
This thread was meant to shine a light on the chastisement aspect of scripture, and it's relation to being children of God, something I'd not seen brought up yet, with regard to eternal security and the firm position of the believer in Christ, as children of God's family. But that quickly devolved into a repeat performance of all the other threads.
If one brings up things like Ezekiel, the temple therein, the millennium, Revelation, the New Jerusalem, the question of the mystery of iniquity, the believer's "epignosis" and liberty that transcends debating legalisms: such a thread will die, pronto, at best get some Preterist claiming the Bible never says what it says. Is it Bible discussion, to constantly discuss what the Bible is not? Will the trollish repetition subside any, after 10,000 more posts the same, 20,000, or 50,000? Is there a point where anybody moves on, to deeper riches?
Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
Perhaps God doesn't permit here, that it will never be resolved whether the milk is whole, 2% or skimmed?
E
this makes me think of that rule about dropping food on the floor...the 5 second rule...if you pick up your food before 5 seconds it's ok to eat...if not, well toss it
how long does a thought have to be in the mind before it becomes sin? 5 second rule apply?
splitting hairs can become a rather messy business IMO
V
Does Jesus talk about "sinning by the degree," or does He simply call sin sin?
As Bill Graham said, "You can't help the first look, but it is the second look that is sin." He said this with the thought in mind that with the first look, you recognize this is an attractive woman. So you look again. If you're married, why are you looking a second time? Take Job's advice.
The word translated "gaze" is the Hebrew !yb (biyn) and it means to "understand, consider." The question becomes, what, in that second glance, are is being considered, even fleetingly?
Of course, second glances are going to occur. Every many does it. The important thing is to keep a "covenant with our eyes" and, if they draw us until thoughts that should be there, confess and move on. The level of sin within the mind is not, by degree, as if the man has slept with the woman. But the sin is still there, simply between me and God at that point, and we can deal with that.
As Bill Graham said, "You can't help the first look, but it is the second look that is sin." He said this with the thought in mind that with the first look, you recognize this is an attractive woman. So you look again. If you're married, why are you looking a second time? Take Job's advice.
Job 31, NASB
1 "I have made a covenant with my eyes; How then could I gaze at a virgin?
2 "And what is the portion of God from above Or the heritage of the Almighty from on high?
3 "Is it not calamity to the unjust And disaster to those who work iniquity?
4 "Does He not see my ways And number all my steps?
5 "If I have walked with falsehood, And my foot has hastened after deceit,
6 Let Him weigh me with accurate scales, And let God know my integrity."
1 "I have made a covenant with my eyes; How then could I gaze at a virgin?
2 "And what is the portion of God from above Or the heritage of the Almighty from on high?
3 "Is it not calamity to the unjust And disaster to those who work iniquity?
4 "Does He not see my ways And number all my steps?
5 "If I have walked with falsehood, And my foot has hastened after deceit,
6 Let Him weigh me with accurate scales, And let God know my integrity."
The word translated "gaze" is the Hebrew !yb (biyn) and it means to "understand, consider." The question becomes, what, in that second glance, are is being considered, even fleetingly?
Of course, second glances are going to occur. Every many does it. The important thing is to keep a "covenant with our eyes" and, if they draw us until thoughts that should be there, confess and move on. The level of sin within the mind is not, by degree, as if the man has slept with the woman. But the sin is still there, simply between me and God at that point, and we can deal with that.
J
Then would you find this pertinent?
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Even after being saved, who of you are ready to stand before Holy, Holy, Holy and Almighty, Perfect God in any of your own merit, even if you had a thousand years to work on it? Which of the filthy rags you bring Him will He have use for? Do you think you have something that will impress God? Perhaps let's do a dance in Christ's blood?
I ask this of anybody, who fails to see the smallest, smutty aspect of us is wholly unacceptable, anything which falls short of the glory of God unacceptable, self righteousness ultimate folly. Speak up, though many have already spoken of their meritorious perfection. (On the other hand, don't speak up. I've heard quite enough of that lying bull.)
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Even after being saved, who of you are ready to stand before Holy, Holy, Holy and Almighty, Perfect God in any of your own merit, even if you had a thousand years to work on it? Which of the filthy rags you bring Him will He have use for? Do you think you have something that will impress God? Perhaps let's do a dance in Christ's blood?
I ask this of anybody, who fails to see the smallest, smutty aspect of us is wholly unacceptable, anything which falls short of the glory of God unacceptable, self righteousness ultimate folly. Speak up, though many have already spoken of their meritorious perfection. (On the other hand, don't speak up. I've heard quite enough of that lying bull.)
K
Actually you left a step out, and that is believe, repent, be baptized (in water) and then receive the Holy Spirit...Acts 2:38
I know some like to leave the H2O baptism off of when you are immersed in it in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but you can not as it was commanded by the Lord....
Second no Peter is not saying they have salvation already, and that verse does not are receiving, it says receiving the end of your faith. The end of ones faith does not come tell they have run the coarse to the end of their physical life. Apostle Paul states multiple times we hope for, seek for, and continue in the faith to receive salvation.
None of these following scriptures does Paul say salvation is already ours in the physical sense, only mental assurance;
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Here is one from the Apostle Jude also;
Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Now you have 3 witnesses from the bible that shows eternal life/salvation comes after keeping yourself in the faith tell the end.
This will then go along exactly with what Jesus said; "The one who endures to the end will be saved."
K
I did to show you two scriptures that shows obedience before saved: Luke 13:3 and Acts 5:32
You can not be saved if you have not repented and have not received the Holy Spirit yet, and both those scriptures says you will still perish if you don't repent and that they Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey. Obey first-receive Holy Spirit-then saved !!!
Repent is to a work of obedience because it is a change of mind of looking on how sinful one once walked to then turn around and stop doing those sinful ways. Repentance is not true if it does not show out in ones outer actions, speech, and walk !!!
Believe in Jesus - means to come to Him, hear what He said, and then go and do what He said..............
Nowhere does the bible say a person who hears only is a true believer, but instead it says the opposite that a hearer only is deceived !!!
Now if you want to get into God's moral laws on rather they are to be obeyed then the answer to that is yes, because the bible clearly says those who love Him keep His commandments and those who do not love Him do not keep His commandments.
Love being the greatest command because by love all other commandments including the 10 will be upheld.
Apostle Paul made this clear in Romans 13:9-11 as the teachings of the Lord and all commands including the 10 moral commands of God will be upheld. One must first learn the difference between the moral law of God, and the Mosaic written ordinances in which the 10 Commandments are considered both !!!
Did Jesus command water baptism ??? YES
Did Peter and the other Apostles perform and continuing to command it after His death and resurrection ??? YES
Did Peter say no man can forbid it to be done ??? YES
Did Peter and Paul both say by this baptism we are buried with Christ ??? YES
Once again you are taking a direct command by the Lord and doing away with it if you say it is not needed, why don't you take and say we don't have to follow anything the Lord said then !!!
I mean if you are going to do away with one of His commands you might as well do away with all of them.
Sorry you can do that but I won't do that !!!