Grace: A License to Sin (FALSE!)

[valiant]

There are 4 major problems with the type of vote people had cast in the fact that they said they will be saved if they die in unrepentant sin.

But what you have to recognise is that the question was a loaded question and was deliberately worded by a deceiver and liar so as to give the wrong impression.

It is the person who set the question who is the greater sinner, for he knew it and still set the question.

#1. It ignores 1 John 1:9 that says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
(Please keep in mind that 1 John 1:8-9 is in context to 1 John 2:4).

It ignores nothing of the kind. The question was simply set up to give that impression,.

#2. God is the giver and taker of life; So if a person does not have a chance to repent, that is because God judged them as being wicked because they really were not sorry for the type of sins they committed before they died (Because they did not confess of it).

Rubbish. If Christ let them die in an unforgiven state when they had entrusted their salvation to Him, it would be HE Who was responsible, no one else. He would have failed on His promises. EVERYONE and especially the person who set the question unless he repents, dies with sins of which they have not repented in their lives. We are so sinful that it is unavoidable. It is just that you have such a low view of sin. You are a sinner and don't know it..

For Ananais and Sapphira were not saved because great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about their deaths. Believers do not experience fear when a believer dies and goes to be with the Lord.

Of course they do. How did they know whether Ananias and Sappyra had gone to be with the LORD? Indeed how do YOU know? 1 Cor 11 makes clear that God does bring death on believers 'so that they will not be condemned with the world'.

#3. God is not a respecter of persons. If God saved His people because they died in sin without repenting of it, then he would also have to save all unbelievers, too. For to believe on Jesus Christ is a Commandment and sin is merely transgression of the law (or commandment).

Well my Bible says that GOD IS a respecter of persons. But your argument is false. There is a great difference between a believer and an unbeliever regardless of other sins. Final unbelief is the unforgiveable sin.

#4. It allows someone to think that they can sin and still be saved some other time (Which is a license to sin).

Sooooo? Any Bible verse ALLOWS someone to interpret it wrongly. You interpret many wrongly. Sadly the Christian is so sinful that he sins even though he knows that he is saved. It is disgraceful, but it is the nature of sinful flesh. That is why Christ died for us so terribly. And every Christian has sins in his life of which he is unaware. Take you for example. But it is foolish to say that it is a license to sin. THAT is why the warning passages are there. In order to show that it is NOT a license to sin. Just because YOU would take it as a license to sin doesn't mean everyone does. Indeed you should be in fear and consider what it shows about YOU. You only avoid sin (and do it incompetently) because of fear. What does that tell us about you? WE avoid sin because we love Christ and want to please Him.

 

[valiant]

Not sure if it was answered or not, but as I said before, how can one say that grace is not a license to sin and yet also say that one can not forgive and yet still be forgiven? This is a contradiction to me (That needs to be explained using the Bible).

I would explain it to someone else, but your mind is closed. It is no use talking to the dead.

 

[Jason0047]

This is absolutely false. People explained that they believe they can die without having expressed regret or asked for forgiveness for a sin should death come upon them before they had the chance to do so.

You deliberately misrepresent what people say and have said. You sound more and more like a snake oil salesman and you seem to think this forum is your audience

You do not appear to have the ability to understand either the feelings or expressions of others leading, once again, my leaning towards viewing your behavior indicating an extreme lack of empathy and an extreme aversion to identifying with the human race in general and the factual account of mankind's fall from grace and the impossible situation of being separated from God because of sin

You have no conception of the corruption of the human race as it applies to you personally and see yourself as having achieved a sinless perspective far removed from the common sinner who cries out to God to be delivered from this body of death as did Paul

Simply put, your behavior and expressions are not only anti-biblical, but your attitude towards us in general would appear to indicate that you see yourself separate and apart...somehow better, always right and disgusted with the rest of us

I don't think you are as religious as you think you are.

Frankly and quite honestly, I do not believe any one of us is ever going to make the slightest dent regarding your unbiblical beliefs and it is not due to confusion on your part or poor exegetical skills on ours.

Also, one having regret after one is dead will not count because they chose not to believe God and His Word. For some unbelievers will no doubt express their regret in not accepting Christ when they are at the Great White Throne Judgment. This will also apply to believer who chose not to make Christ their Lord by doing what He says. For if a person rejects Christ's words, then those very words will judge them on the last day (John 12:48).

 

[Jason0047]

But what you have to recognise is that the question was a loaded question and was deliberately worded by a deceiver and liar so as to give the wrong impression.

It is the person who set the question who is the greater sinner, for he knew it and still set the question.



It ignores nothing of the kind. The question was simply set up to give that impression,.



Rubbish. If Christ let them die in an unforgiven state when they had entrusted their salvation to Him, it would be HE Who was responsible, no one else. He would have failed on His promises. EVERYONE and especially the person who set the question unless he repents, dies with sins of which they have not repented in their lives. We are so sinful that it is unavoidable. It is just that you have such a low view of sin. You are a sinner and don't know it..



Of course they do. How did they know whether Ananias and Sappyra had gone to be with the LORD? Indeed how do YOU know? 1 Cor 11 makes clear that God does bring death on believers 'so that they will not be condemned with the world'.



Well my Bible says that GOD IS a respecter of persons. But your argument is false. There is a great difference between a believer and an unbeliever regardless of other sins. Final unbelief is the unforgiveable sin.



Sooooo? Any Bible verse ALLOWS someone to interpret it wrongly. You interpret many wrongly. Sadly the Christian is so sinful that he sins even though he knows that he is saved. It is disgraceful, but it is the nature of sinful flesh. That is why Christ died for us so terribly. And every Christian has sins in his life of which he is unaware. Take you for example. But it is foolish to say that it is a license to sin. THAT is why the warning passages are there. In order to show that it is NOT a license to sin. Just because YOU would take it as a license to sin doesn't mean everyone does. Indeed you should be in fear and consider what it shows about YOU. You only avoid sin (and do it incompetently) because of fear. What does that tell us about you? WE avoid sin because we love Christ and want to please Him.

No. God's promises involve 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7. You have to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins; And if we walk in light as he is in the light... then... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. For when does Jesus and the Father make their home in the believer?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[mailmandan]

How many people here can say they live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time? If we fall short of sinless perfection, does that mean Christ is not our Lord and we don't do what He says at all?

 

[Jason0047]

I would explain it to someone else, but your mind is closed. It is no use talking to the dead.

It is not for just me, but it is for helping those of your own flock. Do you care to help them? For Jesus said to Peter that if he loved him, he would feed the sheep.

 

[valiant]

How many people here can say they live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time? If we fall short of sinless perfection, does that mean Christ is not our Lord and we don't do what He says at all?

There is one. His name is Jason. But he only says it AND CONVINCES HIMSELF OF IT. He does not do it really. Thus he will be found the greater sinner because he teaches and does not.

 

[valiant]

It is not for just me, but it is for helping those of your own flock. Do you care to help them? For Jesus said to Peter that if he loved him, he would feed the sheep.

God also said, him who is a heretic, after the first and second admonition reject.

 

[Jason0047]

How many people here can say they live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time? If we fall short of sinless perfection, does that mean Christ is not our Lord and we don't do what He says at all?

We know that only Noah and his family were spared because he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The rest of the world lived wickedly (For their thoughts were evil continually). So if you lived back then and never met Noah and his family, you could come to the same wrong conclusion as you are coming to today. For the Scriptures should not be changed so as to what we see in the world. For we walk by faith and not by sight. So 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and Ephesians 4:17-27 still stands as being 100% true with a plain straightforward reading.

 

[Jason0047]

God also said, him who is a heretic, after the first and second admonition reject.

But we are to correct with the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

 

[mailmandan]

We know that only Noah and his family were spared because he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The rest of the world lived wickedly (For their thoughts were evil continually). So if you lived back then and never met Noah and his family, you could come to the same wrong conclusion as you are coming to today. For the Scriptures should not be changed so as to what we see in the world. For we walk by faith. 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and Ephesians 4:17-27 still stand and are 100% true with a plain straightforward reading.

Are you telling us that you are living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life 100% of the time and believers who fall short of sinless perfection, Christ is not their Lord and they don't do what He says at all?

 

[BenFTW]

Not sure if it was answered or not, but as I said before, how can one say that grace is not a license to sin and yet also say that one can not forgive and yet still be forgiven? This is a contradiction to me (That needs to be explained using the Bible).

I think its matter of the glass being half full or empty, and the perspective makes all the difference. One could argue that indeed, God's grace has given us a license to sin because there now lies no penalty to the sin (in the eternal sense) because Christ paid the price. One could then argue, no it doesn't give us a license to sin because it has freed us from that very sin. So, in a sense, yes grace does give us license, but in another it sets us free. Its a matter of perspective. Its not as if God is giving His blessing or permission to sin all we want, however in terms of eternal security/salvation we do have that license to sin in that no amount of sins we commit can take back His Son's sacrifice on our behalf. Sin is taken care of.

Let me put it this way. A father could tell his daughter that no matter what she does, she will always be his child and that he will always love her. She could reply, "Really? So I can go out, get drunk and have premarital sex and have a baby and you'd still love me?" Of course the father would grieve (think Holy Spirit) over these actions but it wouldn't make her any less his daughter or for that fact make him love her less.

On the contrary, how much more will she need love in order to comfort her? His reply might be, "Well you can do that, but why would you? You know better and there is so much more to life." In the same way, as Christians we know better, and know there is so much more to life in the liberty we now walk by grace and in the Spirit. Yeah, we could go out and sin, but it would only reveal to us our ignorance of the freedom and identity we now have. It may even wake us up to the fact we would rather do it God's way. When we sin, there is this small voice, not of condemnation but a revelation of who we now are. The righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ. Yeah, go and do what you're going to do, but know that you are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That revelation will set you free from sin. You come to realize that your actions do not align with who you now are in Jesus Christ.

If you didn't know, there is a thing called carnal Christianity, people who are yet babes in Christ who have yet to awaken to who they are in Him. Maturity can take time, but whether you are but a babe in Christ or matured, you are still His child. Maturity isn't the means to salvation, Jesus is. Fruit take time to bear, and so you have those that have an immediate change when accepting Christ and those that change over time. Some take longer than others, for whatever reason. You may ask, "Carnal Christianity!? What is this blasphemy?" I point you to the Corinthian church, who were in all manner of sin, even such as sleeping with temple prostitutes. Yet, what words did Paul speak to them?

1 Corinthians 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Look at everything I put in bold, and consider to whom he is speaking to. Could you look at a person in your congregation you knew was sleeping with prostitutes and tell them these same things? Honestly. Could you? "I know you are sleeping with prostitutes, but I thank God for the grace given unto you, and thank Him that you shall be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, confirmed unto the end." You see, Paul knew the revelation of grace and the gift of no condemnation. He knew those revelations set us free from the shackles of sin and allows us to be taught by grace to deny ungodliness. He knew pulling out the Ten Commandments, or the Law wasn't going to set them free, on the contrary it would condemn them. It is grace that sets us free from sin's dominion.

Hope this helps clears things up for you. Grace isn't a license depending upon your perspective realizing the intent is to set you free from sin, not so that you can wallow in it. Sure, you can wallow, but why would you? As Paul states, "God forbid!" It isn't who you are, any longer. How can you who have died to sin, live in it? It doesn't align with who you now are, and so while there is no eternal consequences to your sin (license, in a sense) it doesn't make sense for you to wallow in it because you've been set free.

 

[Jason0047]

Are you telling us that you are living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life 100% of the time and believers who fall short of sinless perfection, Christ is not their Lord and they don't do what He says at all?

My life does not change what the Word says. As I said, your belief here is sight based and not faith based. In addition, giving into the idea that one will always sin is an attitude of defeat that is making an excuse for sin to take place in your life (When it doesn't have to be that way). Your belief leads to unrighteousness as a guarantee (And it does not lead to holiness). For god wants believers to be ye holy as He is Holy. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you, but you say sin will continue to have dominion over the believer because you do not believe they can crucify the affections and lusts or suffer in the flesh so as to cease from sin.

 

[mailmandan]

My life does not change what the Word says. As I said, your belief here is sight based and not faith based. In addition, giving into the idea that one will always sin is an attitude of defeat that is making an excuse for sin to take place in your life (When it doesn't have to be that way). Your belief leads to unrighteousness as a guarantee (And it does not lead to holiness). For god wants believers to be ye holy as He is Holy. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you, but you say sin will continue to have dominion over the believer because you do not believe they can crucify the affections and lusts or suffer in the flesh so as to cease from sin.

It was a YES or NO question. Please answer YES or NO - Are you telling us that you are living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life 100% of the time and believers who fall short of sinless perfection, Christ is not their Lord and they don't do what He says at all?

 

[Sirk]

Why were the Bereans more noble? Because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not. The fact that the Bible speaks more about warning the believer than mentioning in having security in Him should give a person pause. But people see what they want to see in God's Word. Also, if OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) was true, then how come nobody has yet to make a real world example out of it? Did not Jesus illustrate spiritual truth with real world examples (i.e. parables)? This is another thing that should give a person something to think about (if such a doctrine is true or not).

ummmmm.....real world example. does your child cease being your child............ever?

 

[Sirk]

My life does not change what the Word says. As I said, your belief here is sight based and not faith based. In addition, giving into the idea that one will always sin is an attitude of defeat that is making an excuse for sin to take place in your life (When it doesn't have to be that way). Your belief leads to unrighteousness as a guarantee (And it does not lead to holiness). For god wants believers to be ye holy as He is Holy. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you, but you say sin will continue to have dominion over the believer because you do not believe they can crucify the affections and lusts or suffer in the flesh so as to cease from sin.

Thats good to know that your life doesn't change what the word says. I was kinda concerned that the bible was a moving target like your theology.

 

[Sirk]

It is not for just me, but it is for helping those of your own flock. Do you care to help them? For Jesus said to Peter that if he loved him, he would feed the sheep.

So valiant's flock is a different flock from yours? And.....Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. It wasn't conditional, it was restorative for Peter denying him 3 times. Get a grip dude.

 

[Jason0047]

ummmmm.....real world example. does your child cease being your child............ever?

If your child destroyed half the world and was seeking to kill you, would he really still be your loving son?

 

[Jason0047]

It was a YES or NO question. Please answer YES or NO - Are you telling us that you are living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life 100% of the time and believers who fall short of sinless perfection, Christ is not their Lord and they don't do what He says at all?

While I have not overcome all sin yet in my life, I believe one day soon with Christ that I will overcome. It could be today or tomorrow. However, I do not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life and I seek to obey Him and do what is good and pleasing in His sight. There are days I do not sin. This is not by my power, but it the power of Christ. In other words, it would be like an alcoholic who is striving to stop drinking so as to be sober. If he stumbles on his road to recovery, it was for his learning so as not to sin again. But the alcoholic who says they will never be able to stop drinking and yet he claims he will be free of his addiction one day is only deceiving himself.

 

[Jason0047]

If your child destroyed half the world and was seeking to kill you, would he really still be your loving son?

In other words, a person's sin is more damaging and destructive then they realize.