Rapture= false teaching

[jesus_be4_religion]

Another thing I dont get is the bible says that Satan and his hosts will surround the Christians, and then God will call down fire and destroy them in revelations. How is that supposed to happen if all the Christians are gone.

 

[shad]

Honestly it doesn't sound any more far fetched than the world turning into chaos with planes falling out of the sky because the pilots were raptured....on the flip side if you're a post tribulationist and expecting to be post tribulated then if Jesus comes before the anti-Christ you may not believe it is Christ and so be left behind.

You are a full grown man that comes across as having reasonable intelligence and you can't get by this Tim LaHaye complex that you have created in your own mind. In your case, forget Tim LaHaye and all that stuff, get by it and stop letting it cloud your judgment. Good grief (got that from Charlie Brown)!!!

 

[shad]

That's a good point jesus_b4, Corrie Ten Boom sharing her experiences and writing about the rapture did say:



There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."


​

The great joy about this precious saint, Corrie Ten Boom, is that now in heaven, she knows that she was wrong about the rapture because she knows that Christ is coming for the church, His redeemed and purchased possession, before the great tribulation that includes God's wrath. Now she is rejoicing over the truth with those that are dead in Christ, who will be caught up in their bodies in the air, with those that remain alive on earth in Christ. That is now a day that she is looking forward to and realizes that God would never have appointed her or any member of God's body to wrath. So rejoice and praise God for His wonderful work unto the children of men!

 

[miktre]

Another thing I dont get is the bible says that Satan and his hosts will surround the Christians, and then God will call down fire and destroy them in revelations. How is that supposed to happen if all the Christians are gone.

I believe you are referring to when satan is loosed again at the end of the 1000 years with Christ.

 

[miktre]

I offer no apologies for this post and is not directed at any individual member of this forum, rather this endtime prophecy is for the 'rapture doctors' of the great endtime lie in the modern church.


Now hear the Prophet Ezekiel


Ezekiel 13

1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
Son of man=son of Adam(used of Ezekiel exactly 100 times); They prophesy the rapture doctrine right out of their own hearts and ignore scripture after scripture, now you better hear what God says about it.

3Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
The rapture doctors write their books and make their movies and go on and on about things that are not in the Bible to make their doctrine to seem believable.

4O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
Sneaky animals that come in to spread lies in the church and have left them in ruins.

5Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Here we have why God is angry with them. We are talking about the prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord when He returns. Their rapture doctrine has left 'ordinary Christians' completely defenseless to stand in that battle. They believe they will be gone thus the rapture doctors have stripped them of their hedge of protection and they shall follow the first to come, satan himself, the most beautiful of the angels and he will claim to be God.

6They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
Vanity=evil lie, lying divination= divine lie. From Mary Mcdonald to the phoneys on TV that claim to have visions of rapture. God says He did not send them. They rip out a verse here and there and twist the word all around to make others believe the lie. God hates this.

7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
These are not from God but lies to get Christians to fall in the Great Tribulation.

8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Woe unto you rapture doctors. His hand shall be upon you not in love in that Day, rather anger.

10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
They say you shall always be in peace and not have to face the Great Tribulation. They build a wall for protection and coated(daubed) it with whitewash(untempered morter). What a pitiful wall of protection they have built to have to paint it up to make it look good.Their wall is that we will fly away and escape instead of listening to how Christ told you to make your escape.

11Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
Seventh trump friends comes the hailstones. Remember it when you see how their rapture doctrine has left them defenseless and unprepared.

12Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
You put so much work into painting this deception of protection. Remember these words here, for if you are a rapture doctor you will here them again.

13Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
God sure is angry at these endtime prophets. Whose fault is it?

14So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Rapture doctrine is satanic at its origins and thats the foundation of it. It's built on sand.

15Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;

16To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
Satan will sit in the temple of God proclaiming to be God in Jerusalem. These are the same that will be telling you to follow satan and proclaiming he is our Messiah, he is not. He will tell them in that day,"I knew you not"

17Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
Pillows=coverings; armholes= cuffs, where the hands come out of the sleave; kerchiefs=blindfold
The rapture doctrine covering the hands of God that are stretched forth in judgment. You hunt souls by teaching them rapture fairy tales of flying away. What shall be said in that Day when they have worshiped the beast because they were not taught with the simplicity of Christs teachings that satan is coming first?

19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
The rappture doctors take a salary(handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread) for the lies and you can see on TV and at the pulpit begging for money like the beggars they are.

20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
How do you hunt them? With your fly away fairy tells. The only place they are flying is into the snare of satan.

21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
God will take back that which is His.

22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Boy oh boy what a let down satan will be to people, they will be disappointed in God but this is not God, only a fake. What a wicked path the rapture will lead them down.

23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD



I stumbled across this interesting song and video on youtube(and no this is not me nor do I know this man). I see there is a movement going on and people are beginning to see as those days draw near. Truth shall always prevail and 'ordinary Christians' and people they are believing it.

Ezekiel Chapter 13 - by Paul Stringini - Prophesy Against the Prophets
​

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-0aPlnepPM[/video]
​

 

[Zilla64007]

You don't sound like a very happy camper. Your accusations and conclusions are very strange and filled with resentment and vindication and have no place in the body of Christ. Why is it that there is so much stock put in the early church (that proceeded the death of the last apostle) in justifying the understanding of certain doctrines? We now have the scriptures of both old and new testaments that have been canonized along with approximately (75) years of the early church starting at Pentecost. That is what God has provided in written form for our understanding in doctrine, in truth, in faith, in love, in the function, application and commission of the church and every member of that body. All the doctrines are right there in the scriptures and they all reveal the mind of Christ, the person of Christ and the work of Jesus Christ who is the head of the church. If you have a problem with sin, I suggest that you go to the cross, like the rest of us, and deal with them there. All your venting comes from the flesh and the natural mind of Adam. It all needs to be crucified experientially in your life and that's where the cross comes in.

thanks. I already have.
even though I already have, nowhere in the Bible does it say i have to accept sin as good... because I wont.

 

[Zilla64007]

Did Someone mention Irenaeus?

Against Hereies Book V Chapter 25


1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

you should read the rest of what Irenaeus had to say...

on dealing with either expectancy or imminency

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX
"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who
falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men
assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another,
they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the
expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore,
ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the
true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false
prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six
hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the
kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning,
and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let
them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the
kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been
speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the
abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less
hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making
surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves,
inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number
mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But
he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we
may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall
have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six
months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come
from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and
those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous
the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and
restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the
Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should
sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

he believed in the "Six Day Theory" which precluded imminence

Irenaeus: Against Heresies V. XXVIII, 3
"For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years
shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: "Thus the
heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God
brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made;
and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works." This is an
account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is
to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days
created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will
come to an end at the sixth thousand year."

he believed the church would be persecuted by Antichrist

Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's
disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings
who shall then arise, ... These have one mind, and give their strength and
power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb
shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. ...
And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give
their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they
shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."

Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man
comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:... But when this
Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for
three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then
the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father,
sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but
bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the
hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised
inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from
the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob."

Irenaeus: Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1
"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to
the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of
Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of]
which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger
by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed
to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom
intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual
beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from
heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands
of the Wicked one."

 

[Zilla64007]

We know more now than ever because these things were sealed up until now

[FONT=&quot]Daniel 11 (King James Version)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]28 Then shall he (ANTICHRIST) return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Daniel 12 (King James Version)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, (TRIBULATION) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (GREATEST): and at that time thy people (ISRAEL) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (THE FIRST RESURRECTION), and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (THE SECOND RESURRECTION) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever (BELIEVERS). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book(IT IS NOT TIME TO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS UNTIL…..), even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro(WORLDWIDE COMMUNICATION), and knowledge shall be increased(EXPONENTIAL INCREASE IN KNOWLEGE). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (SECOND (THE GREAT) HALF OF THE TRIBULATION); and when he (ANTICHRIST) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (ISRAEL), all these things shall be finished. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand (Snail). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (SECOND (GREAT) HALF OF TRIBULATION)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days[/FONT]

is that how you justify a gnostic viewpoint within the Word of God?...

this says NOTHING about some secret hidden knowledge of a rapture... this talks of the future, when all these things which were described in the earlier chapters would come to pass... it even gives us a general knowledge of what would be happening on the earth in verse 4... if something so big and important such as a the pre-trib rapture were Biblical, it would of been revealed to the apostles and the prophets and would be evident everywhere within the church, but it's not... it would not be hidden from mankind for over 1800 years!

Mark 13:23
But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

 

[shad]

thanks. I already have.
even though I already have, nowhere in the Bible does it say i have to accept sin as good... because I wont.

Has anyone asked you to live in sin? Please tell me who that is, so we can give them a proper head chopping. Do you think it is sin for God to be good to His church and body and keep them from the hour of temptation? If you think about it, God has never allowed us to be tempted beyond what we are able to bear and has always provided a way of escape / 1Cor 10:13. This has happened to the church since its inception for the past 2000 years plus.

So what is it for the Lord to extend His goodness and mercy and take His Church that He has redeemed, both those who are dead in Christ and those who are alive, up to heaven and keep them from the great tribulation, from the wrath to come and from Jacob's trouble. That is just like the Lord to be merciful and gracious at the close of the dispensation of the church age. It is not sin for God to be merciful and good to His people. He will also save Israel during that time without the help of the church. We do what we can as Gentiles now, to get the gospel to the Jews also so that they can be converted and be part of the church. Remember that God has broken down that middle wall of partition / Eph 2:14.

 

[Graybeard]

Rapture = False teaching??
Now THAT is false.........the Bible clearly talks about the Rapture.... whether one believes in:
pre-trib
mid-trib
or
post-trib
there is a rapture that will take place..... whether you call it "the rapture" or "caught up" or "called up" or "taken up" or whatever.....it will happen!

 

[greatkraw]

You cant just proclaim something is ridiculous without showing why. If people are looking forward to leaving this earth before the trib and they do not are they not going to be sadly disappointed maybe even in God.Then when this new leader comes performing miracles and bringing about a false peace proclaiming he is the Christ this might be just what they were waiting for the Antichrist.

that still makes no kinda sense

I am waiting for the rapture

if some dude sits in the temple and says, there was no rapture, I AM now here; I'm not gonna buy it

the problem people seem to have is the idea that they gotta be ready for Christ to come for them any second

they would rather have plenty of warning

tell us YOUR position and we will see if it stands up to scripture

your position is not about what you DONT believe

but what you DO believe

Miktre does not have the courage to nail his colours to the mast

it is much easier to tear down

that is why he created this thread and now he is going for the record

 

[greatkraw]

Heres where belief in the rapture could be very bad. Lets say you believe that you wont face any of the horrors of the trib but you do. Are you then going to rush into the arms of the Antichrist who proclaims a false peace. The bible says many Christians will come out of the tribulation an innumerable amount you could be part of those.

prove that it says this

 

[joint-heir]

I find it amazing this is continuing on
no matter
I took all the info and apllied what Miktre and Zilla was saying
I praid and seeked GODs GUIDANCE on it
and read their arguments over and over with an open mind
AND
from the very foundation by who I am in GOD
Im sorry
BUT
I feel your verses you chose and every description and explanation you give
is more personal than factual and DOES NOT edify GODs position
BUT
Thank You
I enjoyed but GOD is not making this so-called revelation by you 2
known to me
IM NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG
I AM SAYING
THE HOLY GHOST
WONT ALLOW ME TO ACCEPT THIS FROM YOU 2

MAY GOD BLESS YOU BOTH

 

[MahogonySnail]

The great joy about this precious saint, Corrie Ten Boom, is that now in heaven, she knows that she was wrong about the rapture because she knows that Christ is coming for the church

Shad you have some nerve to presume such things about Corrie Ten Boom , but still completely wrong about the rapture.

 

[MahogonySnail]

You are a full grown man that comes across as having reasonable intelligence and you can't get by this Tim LaHaye complex that you have created in your own mind. In your case, forget Tim LaHaye and all that stuff, get by it and stop letting it cloud your judgment. Good grief (got that from Charlie Brown)!!!

I think it's the pre-tribulationators that need to stop Tim LaHaye clouding their judgement. As far as I'm concerned (having spent a number of years in pre-tribulational teaching churches and being a pre-tibber myself) pre-tribbers know nothing more than Tim LaHaye and his writings for their justification for believing in such a heresy. If Tim Layahe's teachings is leaven, then the pre-tribulation movement has big problems.

 

[Zilla64007]

Has anyone asked you to live in sin? Please tell me who that is, so we can give them a proper head chopping. Do you think it is sin for God to be good to His church and body and keep them from the hour of temptation? If you think about it, God has never allowed us to be tempted beyond what we are able to bear and has always provided a way of escape / 1Cor 10:13. This has happened to the church since its inception for the past 2000 years plus.

So what is it for the Lord to extend His goodness and mercy and take His Church that He has redeemed, both those who are dead in Christ and those who are alive, up to heaven and keep them from the great tribulation, from the wrath to come and from Jacob's trouble. That is just like the Lord to be merciful and gracious at the close of the dispensation of the church age. It is not sin for God to be merciful and good to His people. He will also save Israel during that time without the help of the church. We do what we can as Gentiles now, to get the gospel to the Jews also so that they can be converted and be part of the church. Remember that God has broken down that middle wall of partition / Eph 2:14.

and when it comes to tribulation and temptation, what does the Word of God say?
does it say that we are going to fly away before we ever experience it?... no.

Christ has always called for patience and endurance in both temptation and tribulation.
once again, dispensationalism is condemned, so stop bringing up this ridiculous concept of a separation between Jews and gentiles... there is no longer a separation... only unity in Christ. what the Christians before us faced, we will face as well. Christ does not favor us more than our Christian brothers and sisters who lived and died for His Name before us.

 

[Zilla64007]

prove that it says this

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?"

14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

in order to come "out of"(ek) something, you must be in it first.. "ek" is the direct opposite of "eis"

 

[Thaddaeus]

and when it comes to tribulation and temptation, what does the Word of God say?
does it say that we are going to fly away before we ever experience it?... no.

Christ has always called for patience and endurance in both temptation and tribulation.
once again, dispensationalism is condemned, so stop bringing up this ridiculous concept of a separation between Jews and gentiles... there is no longer a separation... only unity in Christ. what the Christians before us faced, we will face as well. Christ does not favor us more than our Christian brothers and sisters who lived and died for His Name before us.

that tribulation is way out of contents from the great tribulation, but that's what you guys are good at anyhow ain't it

 

[miktre]

that still makes no kinda sense

I am waiting for the rapture

if some dude sits in the temple and says, there was no rapture, I AM now here; I'm not gonna buy it

the problem people seem to have is the idea that they gotta be ready for Christ to come for them any second

they would rather have plenty of warning

tell us YOUR position and we will see if it stands up to scripture

your position is not about what you DONT believe

but what you DO believe

Miktre does not have the courage to nail his colours to the mast

it is much easier to tear down

that is why he created this thread and now he is going for the record

Thats a big joke, I have stated time and again there will never be a rapture pre, mid , or post. Why can't you see that? Christ is coming, He is not coming twice, He is not stopping halfway and we fly up to Him and then turn around and fly back down with Him. When He comes He's coming all the way. At that point we are changed at that last trump and gathered by the angels in our spiritual bodies. Read the study below, I agree with everything in it.


17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a).used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky
​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek' as Pastor Arnold (A fine Christian Minister) of the (another Ministry on TV) terms it). This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1},supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1(Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)
​

Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)
​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
​

Observe below:

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
​

After Paul wrote this (the first book of Thessalonians) he began receiving reports from Thessalonica that this Scripture was being misinterpreted. Paul hastily, in a scant couple months, wrote the second letter (book) to the Thessalonians, we know this as {2nd Thessalonians}. In the second chapter of that second letter, Paul cleared up all traces of confusion regarding the Scripture we just studied (regarding the Rapture misinterpretation). We shall briefly study that second explanatory letter (2nd Thessalonians). But first, why don't we re-read those five verses that caused all the confusion in Thessalonica then, and in the Rapture churches today, bearing in mind what we just covered. Then we shall let Paul clear away all remaining confusion in the matter.
1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[shad]

and when it comes to tribulation and temptation, what does the Word of God say?
does it say that we are going to fly away before we ever experience it?... no.

Christ has always called for patience and endurance in both temptation and tribulation.
once again, dispensationalism is condemned, so stop bringing up this ridiculous concept of a separation between Jews and gentiles... there is no longer a separation... only unity in Christ. what the Christians before us faced, we will face as well. Christ does not favor us more than our Christian brothers and sisters who lived and died for His Name before us.

What makes you think that the church will not be persecuted in these last days before Christ comes for it in the rapture? What makes you think that believers that make up the church have not had their faith tried and have not been through tribulations in this life? What makes you think that believers have not suffered and been mocked and ridiculed for their faith? Do you base this on your own experience as a 26 year old novice? What do you know about the trials of life and what Spirit-filled believers go through?

Have you ever had accusations hurled at you year in and year out? Have you ever been slandered and maligned in such a way that your own friends that you loved betrayed you? Have you ever been run out of town by the locals that did not like your message because of conviction and the effect it was having on local business and in families through changing the lifestyles of people by grace and through the message of the cross? There are some on this site that have had things like this happen to them that left them bewildered and hurt and in some cases wounded not knowing why. But God was faithful and gave them grace and came along their side to comfort them and encourage them.

ALL that live godly will suffer persecution / 2Tim 3:12. Perhaps those that have not suffered persecution have not lived godly lives and there are those that do live godly and will suffer persecution. If I were you I would not get to puffed up in your little novice minded contrived intellectualism less you get caught up in the condemnation of the devil / 1Tim 3:6. Jesus said that the world will hate you because you are not of the world as I am not of the world / John 15:18-20, 1Jn 3:13,14. This applies to every believer that makes up the church that takes up their cross and follows Christ. You have heard what I have said and you have no excuse. Open your Bible this time and read it for yourself and stop using ignorance as a cloak as you did with your pastor when you were wet behind the ears.