Matthew 5:17-19 and Sabbathkeeping Claims

[sparkman]

This prophecy is to the ancient nation of Israel. As mentioned previously, the Old Covenant was between God and Israel. The Sabbath, annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws pertain to the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

This has no bearing upon whether the Sabbath and festivals apply today under the New Covenant.

I believe under your eschatological system, you think that ancient Israel will be resurrected in the Millennium and given an opportunity for salvation during a "second life", and that these Scriptures apply to them during that Millennial period. I reject that teaching as Hebrews 9:27 says that it is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgment. The judgment cannot be referring to this post-mortem life as that would deny the entire context of Hebrews where he is constantly telling the ones who had not placed their faith in Jesus Christ to do it with urgency.

Colossians 2:16-17 does have direct bearing on whether the Sabbath and Holy Days are applicable to New Covenant Christians, and it calls them "shadows", in the same way that animal sacrifices are called "shadows" in Hebrews 10:1-2.

Jesus is our Sabbath. Placing our faith in him and his perfect work on the cross and resting from our works for salvation is the true meaning of the Sabbath. (Matt 11:28-30, Heb 4:9-10).

- please show me where you have ever replied to this question?

27And I will put my spirit within you,

and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes],

and ye shall [keep my judgments], and do them.

- a future time when the spirit is given, and cause or force [them to keep his statues] and do them.


28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,

 

[prove-all]

I believe under your eschatological system, you think that ancient Israel will be resurrected in the Millennium and given an opportunity for salvation during a "second life", and that these Scriptures apply to them during that Millennial period. I reject that teaching as Hebrews 9:27 says that it is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgment.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.

-these are the lost sheep of Israel, physical decendents of Jacob

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,- the lost ten tribes hidden from view.



​

-this does not say a resurrection back to life, nor did I say that.
you mix that up with the dry bones, and when a child and old men both live an hundred years.

.
but this is the start of the 1000 years reign, when the two sticks become one again.

 

[prove-all]

Colossians 2:16-17 does have direct bearing on whether the Sabbath and Holy Days are applicable to New Covenant Christians, and it calls them "shadows", in the same way that animal sacrifices are called "shadows" in Hebrews 10:1-2.

To connect the dots, my assertion is that Colossians 2:16-17 uses similar language with regards to the Sabbath and Holy Days, calling them "shadows", . .

-we went over those questions allready.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...festival-new-moon-observance.html#post2148530

- youre assumption would be wrong, at this point in time of Colossians, Jesus allready was risen ,
how can a sabbaths be [a shadow of things to come], but refer to something in the past.
sorry but things to come [is future tense]

also several places in the bible calls some sabbaths
a memorial [not a shadow]

Scripture calls the Sabbath and Holy Days "shadows", just like Hebrews 10:1-2 calls animal sacrifices "shadows".

Your argument is with Scripture. You'd rather believe Herbert Armstrong than God.

-I would rather believe the word of God, recorded in the bible, here are a few.

And this day shall be unto you for [a memorial]; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord
throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for [a memorial] between thine eyes, that
the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the Lord brought thee out of Egypt.

And the priest shall take from the grain offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon
the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month,
shall ye have a sabbath, [a memorial of blowing of trumpets], an holy convocation.

Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months,
ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God.

 

[sparkman]

OK, either way, it has no bearing on whether the Sabbath or holy days apply to anyone today.

Colossians 2:16-17 does, though. And comparing those verses with Hebrews 10:1-2, where the language of shadows is used, makes it apparent they are no longer required.

Hebrews 10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Colossians 2 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The animal sacrifices, as well as the Sabbath and holy days, pointed to Christ, who is the reality.

Matthew 11:[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Christ is our spiritual Sabbath, and he was the fulfillment of the meaning of not only the Sabbath, but the Holy Days, sabbatical years, and Jubilee year. I will be doing another thread on that sometime..to show how he already fulfilled the meaning of the Sabbath, the Holy Days, sabbatical years and Jubilee years.

I know Armstrongism teaches that the Holy Days have not been fulfilled, but that is not the understanding of many others. The interpretation he had of the Day of Atonement was in error, for example. The two goats represented two aspects of his sacrifice...he shed his blood for us, and he carried our sins away. Satan is not our sin bearer like the SDAs and Armstrongites claim. Christ bore them on the cross.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.

-these are the lost sheep of Israel, physical decendents of Jacob

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,- the lost ten tribes hidden from view.



​

-this does not say a resurrection back to life, nor did I say that.
you mix that up with the dry bones, and when a child and old men both live an hundred years.

.
but this is the start of the 1000 years reign, when the two sticks become one again.

 

[sparkman]

Your fundamental error is in claiming that the Old Covenant applies to New Covenant Christians, and it does not.

It was an agreement between God and ancient Israel, not God and New Covenant Christians.

You refuse to acknowledge what Scripture says in this regard, due to your presuppositions.

Even Armstrong knew his argument was weak. That is why he relied on the silly and discredited argument of British-Israelism which has been disproved by DNA testing. There is no way that Western Europeans are the descendants of Abraham. In addition, his linguistic arguments such as claiming that Saxons came from "Isaac's Sons" are so silly that most people with any reasonable intelligence would laugh at them.

-we went over those questions allready.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...festival-new-moon-observance.html#post2148530

- youre assumption would be wrong, at this point in time of Colossians, Jesus allready was risen ,
how can a sabbaths be [a shadow of things to come], but refer to something in the past.
sorry but things to come [is future tense]

also several places in the bible calls some sabbaths
a memorial [not a shadow]



-I would rather believe the word of God, recorded in the bible, here are a few.

And this day shall be unto you for [a memorial]; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord
throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for [a memorial] between thine eyes, that
the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the Lord brought thee out of Egypt.

And the priest shall take from the grain offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon
the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month,
shall ye have a sabbath, [a memorial of blowing of trumpets], an holy convocation.

Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months,
ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God.

 

[prove-all]

Colossians 2:16-17 does have direct bearing on whether the Sabbath and Holy Days are applicable to New Covenant Christians, and it calls them "shadows", in the same way that animal sacrifices are called "shadows" in Hebrews 10:1-2.

God doesn't change, but the way he works with men over time does change. For instance, no one with much Scriptural understanding claims that physical circumcision and animal sacrifices apply. So, the idea that God's expectations of mankind in terms of obedience doesn't change over time is unbiblical.

-we went over some about the question of circumcision and animal sacrifices allready
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...festival-new-moon-observance.html#post2148511

-yes God does not change, Sabbath in gen. sabbath in middle, sabbath in future mill.

circumcise is now of the heart.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

-no animal sacrifices,we are now required to be a living sacrifice .

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye [present your bodies a living sacrifice], [holy], acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.

-Isaiah 56:6-8 6, does not say animals but will be [present your bodies a living sacrifice]

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him,
and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth
the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer:
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

-you wish to become a priest, but profane what God calls holy.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, [an holy priesthood],
to offer up [spiritual sacrifices], acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name
[better than of sons and of daughters]: I will give them an everlasting name,
that shall not be cut off.

- did the law become bad, he will magnify the law, not do away.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all
my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever

 

[prove-all]

Your fundamental error is in claiming that the Old Covenant applies to New Covenant Christians, and it does not.

It was an agreement between God and ancient Israel, not God and New Covenant Christians.

You refuse to acknowledge what Scripture says in this regard, due to your presuppositions.

.

Romans 9:4
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong sole to Israel

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”

Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, [Ask me of things to come ]
concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. Ecclesiastes 1:11

 

[sparkman]

The Old Covenant does not apply to anyone.

Acts 15 is clear on this. Romans 7:1-6 says that the law does not apply to Jews, either.

You simply keep reciting verses out of context to support your points. They have no bearing on anything.

Why do you come to a Christian chatroom to teach people who you consider to be "so-called Christians" who are following a counterfeit Christianity?

Romans 9:4
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong sole to Israel

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”

Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, [Ask me of things to come ]
concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. Ecclesiastes 1:11

 

[sparkman]

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

 

[prove-all]

beware armstrongism-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.

- really , and here I though that God was the one who made Sabbath day holy, and to remember.

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[sparkman]

As you know, there is no record of any human being observing the Sabbath prior to Moses and the children of Israel.

The creation rest is a type of the face-to-face, intimate relationship with God that Adam and Eve possessed prior to the Fall. Christians have the reality of what the creation rest represented. The Sabbath was given to ancient Israel as an "oasis" of types that pictured this restored, face-to-face, intimate relationship with God.

Israel was a carnal nation and did not have this true relationship with God. True believers have this already, and they enjoy it everyday, not just one day a week.

- really , and here I though that God was the one who made Sabbath day holy, and to remember.

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[prove-all]

OK, either way, it has no bearing on whether the Sabbath or holy days apply to anyone today.

Colossians 2:16-17 does, though. And comparing those verses with Hebrews 10:1-2, where the language of shadows is used, makes it apparent they are no longer required.

Hebrews 10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Colossians 2 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The animal sacrifices, as well as the Sabbath and holy days, pointed to Christ, who is the reality.

.

Colossians 2 talks about Gods Holy convocations,of things to come after Christ died.

like pentacost, a holy convocation after Christ was in heaven.


Hebrews 10 talks about the law of sacrifices, Christ became our passover.

these two are not the same

 

[prove-all]

The creation rest is a type of the face-to-face, intimate relationship with God
that Adam and Eve possessed prior to the Fall.

they did not eat of the tree of life, there relationship was not complete.

 

[sparkman]

Colossians 2 talks about Gods Holy convocations,of things to come after Christ died.

like pentacost, a holy convocation after Christ was in heaven.


Hebrews 10 talks about the law of sacrifices, Christ became our passover.

these two are not the same

The language of shadows is used in both cases, which reflects the relative importance of their nature to the New Covenant believer. Individuals without the presupposition that the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath and annual festivals still apply under the New Covenant can recognize that.

 

[sparkman]

They had intimate fellowship with God until the Fall. That is what the Sabbath signifies in part. They also did not labor in the sense that they did after the Fall. They tended the garden but it was not work in the sense that it became after the Fall.

they did not eat of the tree of life, there relationship was not complete.

 

[Elin]

Jesus also says that until heaven and earth pass away....
Even if we try to make a case that We don't have to follow the Law because "everything has already been fulfilled,"
heaven and earth hasn't passed away yet.

Until heaven and earth pass away (as long as heaven and earth exist) nothing will pass from the law until it is fulfilled.

Much has been fulfilled and much has passed while heaven and earth exist and have not passed away; e.g. sin-sacrifice, Levitical priesthood, mediatorship of Moses, old covenant, circumcision of the flesh, unclean foods, etc.

 

[Elin]

your translation says some one is saved and then it says we shall be saved according to a hope.

To confusing for me and maybe a few others.

Mac.

Salvation is
past = from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), justification,
present = from practice of sin, sanctification,
future = from presence of sin, resurrection.

 

[prove-all]

Jesus is our Sabbath. Placing our faith in him and his perfect work on the cross and resting from our works for salvation is the true meaning of the Sabbath. (Matt 11:28-30, Heb 4:9-10).

-He will give rest, it says nothing about Jesus is the Sabbath, have a verse to say this?

 

[prove-all]

Re: Sabbath Law and Rest

entering rest-post # 314
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83970-sabbath-law-rest-16.html#post2145425

the promised rest of the whole creation-post#307
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83970-sabbath-law-rest-16.html#post2145300

 

[sparkman]

-He will give rest, it says nothing about Jesus is the Sabbath, have a verse to say this?

It's pretty obvious. I won't even elaborate on this one.

The Pharisees saw Jesus do miracles right in front of their face and still denied Him. You read Scriptures that are plain and still deny their truth. It's a heart issue.