Which statement is true?
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yes, he has perfected forever those who are in the process of being sanctified.
Part of sanctification is chastening, which is destroying our flesh. especially if we resist. A loving parent continues to push against resistance, knowing that resistance will eventually br broken, and thats a good thing.
Part of sanctification is chastening, which is destroying our flesh. especially if we resist. A loving parent continues to push against resistance, knowing that resistance will eventually br broken, and thats a good thing.
My apologies, I do not mean to mock or belittle anyone. My motives are purely to end the bickering that Paul tells us not to partake in. I will confess to a sarcastic sense of humor and if that offended you I again apologize. I guess it was a little flippant there once.
I would argue that you my friend are the one who misunderstands. But, been there done that time to move on. Between the two of us again, it's a moot subject. But I pray the Lord bring you one who is so considering. Apostasy is NOT a hypothetical situation.
Isaiah said we ALL "like sheep" have gone astray and turned every one to his own way. Prior to salvation we were ALL in an unsaved or lost state. This is not descriptive of His sheep who He knows that hear His voice and follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish or be plucked from His hand (John 10:27-28). In Matthew 15:24, Jesus said - "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Just because they are called "sheep" (lost sheep that is) does not mean that these lost sheep of the house of Israel are His sheep described in John 10:27-28 or that they were ever saved to begin with.
Then it must not be His sheep described in John 10:27-28 because Jesus said His sheep follow Him. Jesus did not say that some of His sheep follow Him and some of them don't. His sheep hear his voice, He knows them, they follow Him, they will never perish or be snatched from His hand. - ETERNAL SECURITY.
In context, we see that the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law were muttering among themselves, criticizing the Lord for fraternizing with sinners. The "so-called" righteous people of the day placed little or no value on the lives of sinners (even though they were self righteous sinners themselves) believing their behavior had rendered them undeserving of any effort toward reconciliation. So Jesus told them this parable to explain God’s view that sinners are actually of urgent importance to Him. That was the point of the parable and not a loss of salvation. On one occasion Jesus told them that He had come to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), and on another that it was the sick that needed a doctor, not the healthy. I have not come to call the righteous, He said, but sinners, to repentance (Luke 5:31-32). Jesus is not giving the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law a lesson on losing salvation and gaining it back as you suppose. That was not their issue. Their issue was they were sinners who needed to repent and become saved.
"On the surface," after ignoring the context, those verses don't sound like they are in harmony with John 10:27-28, just like "on the surface," after ignoring the context, James 2:24 doesn't sound like it's in harmony with Ephesians 2:8,9 - "saved through faith, not works" but that is not the case either. So John 10:27-28 still stands. - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them do and some of them don't) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't). And I give them eternal life, (not He gives eternal life to some of them and some of them He doesn't) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish but some of them will) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand (not some of them will be snatched from His hand and some of them will not be). I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church several years ago so you will just have to remain on that ride without me.
Then it must not be His sheep described in John 10:27-28 because Jesus said His sheep follow Him. Jesus did not say that some of His sheep follow Him and some of them don't. His sheep hear his voice, He knows them, they follow Him, they will never perish or be snatched from His hand. - ETERNAL SECURITY.
In context, we see that the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law were muttering among themselves, criticizing the Lord for fraternizing with sinners. The "so-called" righteous people of the day placed little or no value on the lives of sinners (even though they were self righteous sinners themselves) believing their behavior had rendered them undeserving of any effort toward reconciliation. So Jesus told them this parable to explain God’s view that sinners are actually of urgent importance to Him. That was the point of the parable and not a loss of salvation. On one occasion Jesus told them that He had come to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), and on another that it was the sick that needed a doctor, not the healthy. I have not come to call the righteous, He said, but sinners, to repentance (Luke 5:31-32). Jesus is not giving the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law a lesson on losing salvation and gaining it back as you suppose. That was not their issue. Their issue was they were sinners who needed to repent and become saved.
"On the surface," after ignoring the context, those verses don't sound like they are in harmony with John 10:27-28, just like "on the surface," after ignoring the context, James 2:24 doesn't sound like it's in harmony with Ephesians 2:8,9 - "saved through faith, not works" but that is not the case either. So John 10:27-28 still stands. - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them do and some of them don't) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't). And I give them eternal life, (not He gives eternal life to some of them and some of them He doesn't) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish but some of them will) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand (not some of them will be snatched from His hand and some of them will not be). I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church several years ago so you will just have to remain on that ride without me.
Preacher's Outline & Sermon Bible- Commentary
1. (6:4-5) Warning— Believers: the believer's great privileges. It is difficult to see how these five experiences could be said about a person unless he was a true believer. Being as honest and objective as possible, we would have to strain the meaning to make them apply to anyone else. The Greek Scripture definitely uses the aorist tense which means that the person had a once-for-all experience, an experience that was once-for-all completed, fulfilled, and finished. How could this apply to anyone else other than a believer? Note how each of these read in the aorist tense: the person...
• was once-for-all enlightened
• had once-for-all tasted of the heavenly gift
• was once-for-all made a partaker of the Holy Spirit
• had once-for-all tasted of the good Word of God
• had once-for-all tasted of the power of the world to come.
The word "tasted" (geusamenous[SUP]PWS: 3896[/SUP]) means to partake of, to take in, to experience, to come to know. The Greek scholar Marvin Vincent says that it means to "have consciously partaken of" (Word Studies In The New Testament, Vol. 4, p.445). The very same word is used of Christ when it said that He "tasted death" for us (Hebrews 2:9). And one thing is sure: Christ tasted, that is, consciously experienced, death for us. Therefore, this passage must mean that this person fully tasted and fully experienced salvation. As stated, it seems that we have to twist Scripture to make it say any less than a conscious and full experience. Note the glorious experiences and privileges these persons received in Christ.
1. They were once-for-all enlightened. Enlightened means the light of the gospel and of salvation; the light of Christ, that is, seeing Christ as the Savior and Lord of men; the light of salvation that breaks through the darkness of sin and death. Note: receiving the light happened once-for-all. It was an actual experience of the people, a once-for-all experience. That is, it really happened and it was fulfilled and completed in the people's lives. They received the light of Christ, of His gospel and salvation once-for-all.
2. They had tasted of the heavenly gift. The "heavenly gift" refers to Christ and His salvation which God gave to the world. Scripture proclaims time and again that Jesus Christ and His salvation are God's gifts.
⇒ Christ is God's "unspeakable gift" (2 Cor. 9:15).
⇒ Christ is God's gift to a lost world (John 3:16).
⇒ Salvation is "the gift of God" (Ephes. 2:8-9).
⇒ Christ is the One who came down out of heaven as the gift of God to a lost world (John 3:13; John 3:16; John 3:31-32; John 6:32-33, and a host of other verses. See notes—[SUP]•[/SUP] John 3:32-34; Deeper Study #3—John 3:34 for more references and discussion.)
Note that this is again a once-for-all experience. They had experienced Christ and His salvation once-for-all.
3. They were once-for-all made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. The word "partaker" (metochous) means to share as partners. W.E. Vine says that it means "the fact of sharing" (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1966, p.162). The Greek scholar A.T Robertson says, "These are all given as actual spiritual experiences" (Word Pictures In The New Testament, Vol. 5, p.375). These people were sharers in the Holy Spirit. It is very difficult to see how they can be made to be a false profession without straining the Scripture.
4. They had once-for-all tasted God's good Word. This is the gospel of Christ, of His glorious salvation. The Greek scholar Marvin Vincent says that this means that they received...
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]• life (Acts 5:20)
• the Holy Spirit (John 3:34; Acts 5:32; Acts 10:44; Ephes. 6:17; Hebrews 2:4)[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]• cleansing (Ephes. 5:26).
• spirit and life (John 6:63)
• salvation (Acts 11:14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
(Word Studies In The New Testament, Vol. 4, p.445.)
5. They had once-for-all tasted the powers of the world to come. They had experienced some of heaven upon earth. They had actually experienced the presence and power of Christ in their lives...
• the power of Christ in conquering the trials and temptations and sufferings of this world.
• the healing power of Christ in touching both their bodies and spirits.
"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3:24).
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13).
Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible - Commentary - The Preacher's Outline & Sermon Bible – Hebrew, James.
It's plain as the nose on your face where the confusion is. It seems the only thing you can agree on is that it's not literal, which it is.
1. (6:4-5) Warning— Believers: the believer's great privileges. It is difficult to see how these five experiences could be said about a person unless he was a true believer. Being as honest and objective as possible, we would have to strain the meaning to make them apply to anyone else. The Greek Scripture definitely uses the aorist tense which means that the person had a once-for-all experience, an experience that was once-for-all completed, fulfilled, and finished. How could this apply to anyone else other than a believer? Note how each of these read in the aorist tense: the person...
• was once-for-all enlightened
• had once-for-all tasted of the heavenly gift
• was once-for-all made a partaker of the Holy Spirit
• had once-for-all tasted of the good Word of God
• had once-for-all tasted of the power of the world to come.
The word "tasted" (geusamenous[SUP]PWS: 3896[/SUP]) means to partake of, to take in, to experience, to come to know. The Greek scholar Marvin Vincent says that it means to "have consciously partaken of" (Word Studies In The New Testament, Vol. 4, p.445). The very same word is used of Christ when it said that He "tasted death" for us (Hebrews 2:9). And one thing is sure: Christ tasted, that is, consciously experienced, death for us. Therefore, this passage must mean that this person fully tasted and fully experienced salvation. As stated, it seems that we have to twist Scripture to make it say any less than a conscious and full experience. Note the glorious experiences and privileges these persons received in Christ.
1. They were once-for-all enlightened. Enlightened means the light of the gospel and of salvation; the light of Christ, that is, seeing Christ as the Savior and Lord of men; the light of salvation that breaks through the darkness of sin and death. Note: receiving the light happened once-for-all. It was an actual experience of the people, a once-for-all experience. That is, it really happened and it was fulfilled and completed in the people's lives. They received the light of Christ, of His gospel and salvation once-for-all.
2. They had tasted of the heavenly gift. The "heavenly gift" refers to Christ and His salvation which God gave to the world. Scripture proclaims time and again that Jesus Christ and His salvation are God's gifts.
⇒ Christ is God's "unspeakable gift" (2 Cor. 9:15).
⇒ Christ is God's gift to a lost world (John 3:16).
⇒ Salvation is "the gift of God" (Ephes. 2:8-9).
⇒ Christ is the One who came down out of heaven as the gift of God to a lost world (John 3:13; John 3:16; John 3:31-32; John 6:32-33, and a host of other verses. See notes—[SUP]•[/SUP] John 3:32-34; Deeper Study #3—John 3:34 for more references and discussion.)
Note that this is again a once-for-all experience. They had experienced Christ and His salvation once-for-all.
3. They were once-for-all made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. The word "partaker" (metochous) means to share as partners. W.E. Vine says that it means "the fact of sharing" (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1966, p.162). The Greek scholar A.T Robertson says, "These are all given as actual spiritual experiences" (Word Pictures In The New Testament, Vol. 5, p.375). These people were sharers in the Holy Spirit. It is very difficult to see how they can be made to be a false profession without straining the Scripture.
4. They had once-for-all tasted God's good Word. This is the gospel of Christ, of His glorious salvation. The Greek scholar Marvin Vincent says that this means that they received...
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]• life (Acts 5:20)
• the Holy Spirit (John 3:34; Acts 5:32; Acts 10:44; Ephes. 6:17; Hebrews 2:4)[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]• cleansing (Ephes. 5:26).
• spirit and life (John 6:63)
• salvation (Acts 11:14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
(Word Studies In The New Testament, Vol. 4, p.445.)
5. They had once-for-all tasted the powers of the world to come. They had experienced some of heaven upon earth. They had actually experienced the presence and power of Christ in their lives...
• the power of Christ in conquering the trials and temptations and sufferings of this world.
• the healing power of Christ in touching both their bodies and spirits.
"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3:24).
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13).
Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible - Commentary - The Preacher's Outline & Sermon Bible – Hebrew, James.
It's plain as the nose on your face where the confusion is. It seems the only thing you can agree on is that it's not literal, which it is.
You've gotta be kidding..... what kind of idiot would believe such a statement? Or put their "likes" on it?
Read very carefully......
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB) If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NRSV) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NLT) God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
H O W did you get such a ridiculous interpretation outta that? That was one desperate move..... which makes it look like you will say anything as long as it get folks to believe in OSAS.
H O W will you justify such poor teaching to God..... or do you even care?
And to the "likers"..... I thought you were educated enough to know better. I was wrong.
Really..... you guys believe the readers are that gullible? That's insulting.
Read very carefully......
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB) If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NRSV) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NLT) God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
H O W did you get such a ridiculous interpretation outta that? That was one desperate move..... which makes it look like you will say anything as long as it get folks to believe in OSAS.
H O W will you justify such poor teaching to God..... or do you even care?
And to the "likers"..... I thought you were educated enough to know better. I was wrong.
Really..... you guys believe the readers are that gullible? That's insulting.
You've gotta be kidding..... what kind of idiot would believe such a statement? Or put their "likes" on it?
Read very carefully......
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB) If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NRSV) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NLT) God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
H O W did you get such a ridiculous interpretation outta that? That was one desperate move..... which makes it look like you will say anything as long as it get folks to believe in OSAS.
H O W will you justify such poor teaching to God..... or do you even care?
And to the "likers"..... I thought you were educated enough to know better. I was wrong.
Really..... you guys believe the readers are that gullible? That's insulting.
Read very carefully......
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB) If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NRSV) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NLT) God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
H O W did you get such a ridiculous interpretation outta that? That was one desperate move..... which makes it look like you will say anything as long as it get folks to believe in OSAS.
H O W will you justify such poor teaching to God..... or do you even care?
And to the "likers"..... I thought you were educated enough to know better. I was wrong.
Really..... you guys believe the readers are that gullible? That's insulting.
Please read:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NRSV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NLT) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— [SUP]6 [/SUP]and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
Any internet theologian or armchair preacher could get on the net & find out what you're saying is false. How can you be led by the Spirit of God & not see the plain-as-day literal interpretation?
I would be afraid to say such things after reading how many false prophets in the OT were killed by divine judgement.
IMO, I think a plain 'ole sinner man could see enough in this scripture to know what some of it means. Sheesh.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NRSV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NLT) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— [SUP]6 [/SUP]and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
Any internet theologian or armchair preacher could get on the net & find out what you're saying is false. How can you be led by the Spirit of God & not see the plain-as-day literal interpretation?
I would be afraid to say such things after reading how many false prophets in the OT were killed by divine judgement.
IMO, I think a plain 'ole sinner man could see enough in this scripture to know what some of it means. Sheesh.