Which statement is true?

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

Which statement is a lie?


John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Those that have fallen away were never truly in His hand, otherwise they still would've been. Compare it with this: imagine 10 pieces of gold on a necklace and you want to make sure whether all 10 of them are truly gold or not. You put it in the fire and you see that one of them has burned, it wasn't gold but something that looked like it. Likewise, His sheep will be tested and will prevail and will not be burned by the fire, but the other sheep which seemed to be a sheep of His, wasn't. They are like trees without roots.

 

[RickyZ]

John chapter 15 verses 1 thru 6

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Evidently all that is hyperbole and can be dismissed as being purely hypothetical.

You know, if it doesn't fit into your theology...

 

[RickyZ]

I was going to let this go, as I'll only beat a dead horse for so long. But what the heck one more statement.

Honestly Osas'ers, I hope you're right. I mean, I'm not going to reject my faith, and I highly doubt you are either so for us it's a moot point. But I have people within my family who perfectly model this. My older brother, who grew up in church right beside me, who accepted salvation right beside me, now openly says there is no Jehovah God and Christ is a lie. His son, who for years was one of the biggest Jesus freaks you could find, and whom I know has tasted the things of the Spirit, now publically argues that you can't believe in things that don't exist. My little brother, who's had much the same spiritual experience as I and professes to be Christ's, produces fruit so dark and evil that it can only be the result of demonic oppression or possession (I've seen them wrapped around him like a winter coat). Our dad, who blindly protects him on all other counts, doubts he is still saved.

So the next time you are deciding by your own interpretation which verses you're going to take at face value, and which verses you're going to dismiss as hyperbole, study as well those about confession and apostasy. Because I can guarantee you, there is nothing about apostasy that's hypothetical. It's going on all around you. You just don't see it because you've put on blinders.

 

[RickyZ]

Those that have fallen away were never truly in His hand, otherwise they still would've been. Compare it with this: imagine 10 pieces of gold on a necklace and you want to make sure whether all 10 of them are truly gold or not. You put it in the fire and you see that one of them has burned, it wasn't gold but something that looked like it. Likewise, His sheep will be tested and will prevail and will not be burned by the fire, but the other sheep which seemed to be a sheep of His, wasn't. They are like trees without roots.

Ah the old you can fall out of a tree without ever having climbed one argument. A timeless classic!

 

[phil112]

Both are true and context determines the validity of each statement......Hebrews is addressing those who wanted to go back under the law and blend the law with grace......and states that it is impossible to be re-saved IF it can be lost.....John is clear...salvation is eternal and CANNOT be LOST as it is based upon the WORK and FAITH of Christ which is perfect, complete and everlasting......not that difficult when context is applied!

It doesn't say that. You're adding words to the bible my friend.
No where....not one place, does the bible say it is impossible for us to willfully go back to sin.
No one can remove us from God, but we can leave. You ignore that.
We are our own free moral agents. The bible proves that, and as such, we can make our own choices about our eternal destination.
God does not coerce us. He does not force us. He exhorts us to keep the faith, to finish the fight, and He does so because if we don't we fail and suffer loss of our eternal reward.

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

If we don't hold fast we are not of His house. Can you deny that?

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Tell me, Dcon, what do you suppose would happen if they didn't hold fast and repent? Repent? He's talking to Christians here y'know.

 

[dcontroversal]

Eternal life is found in Christ. If one remains in Christ, then they are eternally secure. What's so difficult to consider about that?

What is so hard to fathom about....

1. Your life being HID WITHIN CHRIST
2. Being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise which is a PREPAYMENT of out ETERNAL (not temporary) inheritance
3. Being in the hands of both the FATHER and the SON
4. Jesus finishing that which he started and completing his PROMISE
5. Jesus NEVER leaving NOR FORSAKING a believer
6. Being rendered LEGALLY INNOCENT by the BLOOD (justified from SIN)
7. Having the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD IMPUTED while our SIN is NAILED to HIS CROSS
8. Being SANCTIFIED in CHRIST eternally (positionally)
9. Being JUSTIFIED by HIS FAITH....

And on and on and on.....

What is so difficult about that?

 

[purgedconscience]

What is so hard to fathom about....

1. Your life being HID WITHIN CHRIST
2. Being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise which is a PREPAYMENT of out ETERNAL (not temporary) inheritance
3. Being in the hands of both the FATHER and the SON
4. Jesus finishing that which he started and completing his PROMISE
5. Jesus NEVER leaving NOR FORSAKING a believer
6. Being rendered LEGALLY INNOCENT by the BLOOD (justified from SIN)
7. Having the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD IMPUTED while our SIN is NAILED to HIS CROSS
8. Being SANCTIFIED in CHRIST eternally (positionally)
9. Being JUSTIFIED by HIS FAITH....

And on and on and on.....

What is so difficult about that?

If we can keep it civil, then I'll be happy to answer your questions. Deal?

 

[dcontroversal]

If we can keep it civil, then I'll be happy to answer your questions. Deal?

I have no problem with that, but I can tell you up front.....I am firmly held in the position of eternal security based upon verb tenses, inspired words used, context and Ecclesiastes 3:11 and WHATSOEVER God does it is ETERNAL<---this includes saving, sealing, sanctifying, justification and any other word of like caliber that applies to what Christ has done for me by FAITH, Grace, Mercy and HIS FAITH.....So....fire away bro.

 

[purgedconscience]

I have no problem with that, but I can tell you up front.....I am firmly held in the position of eternal security based upon verb tenses, inspired words used, context and Ecclesiastes 3:11 and WHATSOEVER God does it is ETERNAL<---this includes saving, sealing, sanctifying, justification and any other word of like caliber that applies to what Christ has done for me by FAITH, Grace, Mercy and HIS FAITH.....So....fire away bro.

But that's just it:

I'm not into firing away. This isn't a gun fight. If it is, then count me out. I've already witnessed enough bullets flying around this forum to last me a lifetime and I'm afraid that the only ones who get hit are the seekers and the newbies. I just refuse to get into strife with anybody whenever avoidable.

By the way, I'm into verb tenses and the like too.

 

[dcontroversal]

It doesn't say that. You're adding words to the bible my friend.
No where....not one place, does the bible say it is impossible for us to willfully go back to sin.
No one can remove us from God, but we can leave. You ignore that.
We are our own free moral agents. The bible proves that, and as such, we can make our own choices about our eternal destination.
God does not coerce us. He does not force us. He exhorts us to keep the faith, to finish the fight, and He does so because if we don't we fail and suffer loss of our eternal reward.

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

If we don't hold fast we are not of His house. Can you deny that?

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Tell me, Dcon, what do you suppose would happen if they didn't hold fast and repent? Repent? He's talking to Christians here y'know.

The word is CHASTISMENT and God will whip HIS rebellious children.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

But that's just it:

I'm not into firing away. This isn't a gun fight. If it is, then count me out. I've already witnessed enough bullets flying around this forum to last me a lifetime and I'm afraid that the only ones who get hit are the seekers and the newbies. I just refuse to get into strife with anybody whenever avoidable.

By the way, I'm into verb tenses and the like too.

Cool....go study the aorist tense verb as applied unto John 3:16

 

[dcontroversal]

It doesn't say that. You're adding words to the bible my friend.
No where....not one place, does the bible say it is impossible for us to willfully go back to sin.
No one can remove us from God, but we can leave. You ignore that.
We are our own free moral agents. The bible proves that, and as such, we can make our own choices about our eternal destination.
God does not coerce us. He does not force us. He exhorts us to keep the faith, to finish the fight, and He does so because if we don't we fail and suffer loss of our eternal reward.

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

If we don't hold fast we are not of His house. Can you deny that?

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Tell me, Dcon, what do you suppose would happen if they didn't hold fast and repent? Repent? He's talking to Christians here y'know.

I will also add...the context of the book is clear and eternal reward is not eternal life!

 

[Gr8grace]

It doesn't say that. You're adding words to the bible my friend.
No where....not one place, does the bible say it is impossible for us to willfully go back to sin.
No one can remove us from God, but we can leave. You ignore that.
We are our own free moral agents. The bible proves that, and as such, we can make our own choices about our eternal destination.
God does not coerce us. He does not force us. He exhorts us to keep the faith, to finish the fight, and He does so because if we don't we fail and suffer loss of our eternal reward.

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

If we don't hold fast we are not of His house. Can you deny that?

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Tell me, Dcon, what do you suppose would happen if they didn't hold fast and repent? Repent? He's talking to Christians here y'know.

BOUGHT with a price. You are not your own. We do have freewill, but when we get saved, we were bought, we are not our own. And We are sealed........................unto the day of redemption.

 

[dcontroversal]

BOUGHT with a price. You are not your own. We do have freewill, but when we get saved, we were bought, we are not our own. And We are sealed........................unto the day of redemption.

Amen to that and CHRIST will finish what he started.....so obvious at the end of the day!

 

[purgedconscience]

BOUGHT with a price. You are not your own. We do have freewill, but when we get saved, we were bought, we are not our own. And We are sealed........................unto the day of redemption.

I'm surprised that you would cite this verse to support your position:

I Corinthians chapter 6 verses 19 and 20

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Why am I surprised? Well, because Paul had just finished saying the following in relation to our same bodies or in relation to the same temples of the Holy Ghost:

I Corinthians chapter 3 verses 16 and 17

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What do you understand that to mean?

Is God destroying us a good thing?

 

[flob]

No one can remove us from God, but we can leave.

I know you don't want to.
you can't permanently, even if you tried silly
Philip 1:6; 1 Jn 3:1

We are our own free moral agents. The bible proves that, and as such, we can make our own choices about our eternal destination.

Lol.
If you made the choice to be born anew, which is the case with the new birth, then that shows you were predestinated.
You're stuck
Eph 1:4-14; Rm 8:28-39

God does not coerce us. He does not force us. He exhorts us to keep the faith, to finish the fight, and He does so because if we don't we fail and suffer loss of our eternal reward.

Don't try and lose your eternal 'reward(?)'..........or try.........
You can't escape your own Father..............you have His life!
Jn 3:6; 20:17; Heb 12:1-29; 1 Pet 1:3

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."
If we don't hold fast we are not of His house. Can you deny that?

The most you can delay Him (I know you don't want to, and please don't) is
1000 years
Rv 2:7, 10, 17, 26-28; 3:5, 12, 21; 1 Cor 3:1-17; .....
Eventually all God's crop will mature
Phil 1:6

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."
Tell me, Dcon, what do you suppose would happen if they didn't hold fast and repent? Repent? He's talking to Christians here y'know.

He is. What you apparently are short of, is the complete view, vision, or understanding............of what a 'Christian' is
1 Cor 6:17; Rm 8:16; 1 Jn 3:1; 1 Pet 1:3; Jn 20:22; Jn 1:12-13; 1 Cor 6:19; etc.
But if you are, and you are (a son of God), then you are 'stuck.'
Thank the Lord!

 

[MarcR]

I don't see it Marc.

These believers were being reprimanded. Chapter 6 starts with "therefore" So we have to go back a bit.

The author said they had become dull of hearing. they should of been teachers by now. they needed to be taught AGAIN.

They were immature and needed to see the difference between good(Divine good) and evil(Human good/their good works in the flesh/dead works/going back to their rituals/namely animal sacrifice)

Gr8grace,


Heb 5:1-3 begins to set the context for Heb 6:4-6 in that it shows the Levitical High Priest as having to continually offer sacrifices not only for the ongoing sins of the people; but also for himself.

Heb 5:5-9 explains the superiority of Jesus' High Priesthood:

Verses 5-6 show the superiority of Jesus' calling.

verses 7-9 show the superiority of Jesus' atonement in that offered once its efficacy was perpetual.

Heb 5:11-14 are a rebuke to the recipients of the letter; in which, they are described as immature and lacking understanding.

Heb 6:1-2 state the core issue the author is addressing; namely: relaying the foundation of repentance and faith, etc.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a statement that having once repented and come to faith; it is impossible that such response would ever need to be nor could ever be repeated.

 

[Kaycie]

Both scriptures are true. NO ONE can snatch you from the Father's hand. But YOU can choose to leave. His sheep follow Him of their own free will, they are not forced to follow Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was going to let this go, as I'll only beat a dead horse for so long. But what the heck one more statement.

Honestly Osas'ers, I hope you're right. I mean, I'm not going to reject my faith, and I highly doubt you are either so for us it's a moot point. But I have people within my family who perfectly model this. My older brother, who grew up in church right beside me, who accepted salvation right beside me, now openly says there is no Jehovah God and Christ is a lie. His son, who for years was one of the biggest Jesus freaks you could find, and whom I know has tasted the things of the Spirit, now publically argues that you can't believe in things that don't exist. My little brother, who's had much the same spiritual experience as I and professes to be Christ's, produces fruit so dark and evil that it can only be the result of demonic oppression or possession (I've seen them wrapped around him like a winter coat). Our dad, who blindly protects him on all other counts, doubts he is still saved.

So the next time you are deciding by your own interpretation which verses you're going to take at face value, and which verses you're going to dismiss as hyperbole, study as well those about confession and apostasy. Because I can guarantee you, there is nothing about apostasy that's hypothetical. It's going on all around you. You just don't see it because you've put on blinders.

what is an antichrist. but one who denys christ. It appears your family are now antichrist.

You yell and scream and mock people who believe in eternal security, and say we interpret the bible only the way it fits our belief.

Yet the bible speaks of your family. And those who once claimed to be saved, and part of the church, but now DENY CHRIST.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


So instead of mocking things you do not understand, and saying we do not listen to the word. Why do you not listen to the word. For John tells us about your family, you may not believe us, maybe you will believe him.

Yes this is harsh, and yes it hurts like heck (my brother and sister are the same way) But biblical truth is still biblical truth no matter how bad it hurts our pride.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is so hard to fathom about....

1. Your life being HID WITHIN CHRIST
2. Being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise which is a PREPAYMENT of out ETERNAL (not temporary) inheritance
3. Being in the hands of both the FATHER and the SON
4. Jesus finishing that which he started and completing his PROMISE
5. Jesus NEVER leaving NOR FORSAKING a believer
6. Being rendered LEGALLY INNOCENT by the BLOOD (justified from SIN)
7. Having the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD IMPUTED while our SIN is NAILED to HIS CROSS
8. Being SANCTIFIED in CHRIST eternally (positionally)
9. Being JUSTIFIED by HIS FAITH....

And on and on and on.....

What is so difficult about that?

All those things are against human nature and comprehension. nothing but complete humility and dieing to self can fathom all those things.