Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?
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It seems Paul wrote this section in 1 Thess. was because people were concerned about their loved ones who had died. . .
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. . . .
Is that what you mean?
As for the GREAT tribulation Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. . . . then in relationship to Revelation 6 - the opening of the seals.
Matt. 24:5 (24) = Seal #1 Rev. 6:2 false Christs. . .many will come in my name and deceive many
Matt. 24:6,7 = Seal #2 Rev. 6:4 wars and rumors of wars; nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom Matt. 24:7 = Seal #3 Rev. 6:5,6 Famines. . .
Luke 21:11 = Seal #4 Rev. 6:8 Pestilence . . .
Matt. 24:9 = Rev. 6:9-11 Seal #5 death of believers . . . .
Matt. 24:7 = Rev. 6:12 Seal #6 earthquakes . . . . . .
Seal #7 Rev. 8:1 Silence . . .
Then notice @ seal #6 - the earthquakes - Rev. 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall in us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. . . .
Is that what you mean?
As for the GREAT tribulation Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. . . . then in relationship to Revelation 6 - the opening of the seals.
Matt. 24:5 (24) = Seal #1 Rev. 6:2 false Christs. . .many will come in my name and deceive many
Matt. 24:6,7 = Seal #2 Rev. 6:4 wars and rumors of wars; nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom Matt. 24:7 = Seal #3 Rev. 6:5,6 Famines. . .
Luke 21:11 = Seal #4 Rev. 6:8 Pestilence . . .
Matt. 24:9 = Rev. 6:9-11 Seal #5 death of believers . . . .
Matt. 24:7 = Rev. 6:12 Seal #6 earthquakes . . . . . .
Seal #7 Rev. 8:1 Silence . . .
Then notice @ seal #6 - the earthquakes - Rev. 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall in us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"
Yes they said 'when will THIS happen?' What was THIS? It was the destruction of Herod's Temple. Mark and Luke cite this and this only. This demonstrates that most of what was to follow had to do with the destruction of Herod's Temple and its aftermath, So THIS has already happened !!!!
The only thing that awaits is the second coming itself.
Anyone who accept what the Bible says LITERALLY will realise that the sixth seal points to the destruction of the world and the second coming. The seven trumpets and the seven bowls occur in parallel to the six seals and each ends with a depiction of the final judgment and the second coming.
yes but it is not voluntarily 'going to meet Him' at the time of the Rapture.
which is what I always seek to do. I was involved in prophetic schemes as a young man but I gave them up long ago and stuck to the simplicity of Scripture. The last thing that the text can be seen as teaching is a coming literally to earth.
it takes place outside time. Scripture pictures it in many vivid forms, but all point to the same thing. The final judgment. The vivid language is so that understanding will be hammered home to us. The reality would be beyond our comprehension.
which is what I always seek to do. I was involved in prophetic schemes as a young man but I gave them up long ago and stuck to the simplicity of Scripture. The last thing that the text can be seen as teaching is a coming literally to earth.
it takes place outside time. Scripture pictures it in many vivid forms, but all point to the same thing. The final judgment. The vivid language is so that understanding will be hammered home to us. The reality would be beyond our comprehension.
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F
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld him going into heaven...
Ac 1:11.................isn't even a 'suggestion' to you?
Is there, in the New Testament, or Old, anywhere Any .... suggestion that Jesus descends?
(I would guess you would say 'yes,' and maybe supply the Scripture(s)......but since your teaching, on this subject, seems so outlandish to me......you understand I have to be careful to ask you first)
What, then, for example--- a few important things in the New Testament------are Not 'beyond our comprehension'?
You seem to comprehend that it 'takes place outside time' as opposed to in time. May I inquire: what is your demarcation for in time and outside of time? Is the New Heaven and New Earth (Rv 21:1) outside of time? If so, doesn't the judgment of the unsaved, at the Great White Throne, transpire in 20:11-14------before 21:1? How then, to you, is 20:11-14 not within time?
Then...................Christ reigning must be something, to use your words: 'within our comprehension.' Not beyond it.
Since you not only interpret about it, but you can 'assure' me about it. His judgment of the unsaved (Rv 20:10-14), in your view, is beyond our comprehension. But His reigning is graspable. Or I should say how He will NOT reign is comprehensible.
Is it something.........'dirty,' or contemptible.......about the earth that Christ will never come back on it ever again in your opinion? Or is there something ugly and unworthy of Christ in the matter of visibly ruling over people and nations? You don't want your God to do that? (I'm humbly asking you these questions first, rather than first asking you to explain all the Scriptures that appear to emphatically contradict your teaching)
Ac 1:11.................isn't even a 'suggestion' to you?
Is there, in the New Testament, or Old, anywhere Any .... suggestion that Jesus descends?
(I would guess you would say 'yes,' and maybe supply the Scripture(s)......but since your teaching, on this subject, seems so outlandish to me......you understand I have to be careful to ask you first)
What, then, for example--- a few important things in the New Testament------are Not 'beyond our comprehension'?
You seem to comprehend that it 'takes place outside time' as opposed to in time. May I inquire: what is your demarcation for in time and outside of time? Is the New Heaven and New Earth (Rv 21:1) outside of time? If so, doesn't the judgment of the unsaved, at the Great White Throne, transpire in 20:11-14------before 21:1? How then, to you, is 20:11-14 not within time?
Then...................Christ reigning must be something, to use your words: 'within our comprehension.' Not beyond it.
Since you not only interpret about it, but you can 'assure' me about it. His judgment of the unsaved (Rv 20:10-14), in your view, is beyond our comprehension. But His reigning is graspable. Or I should say how He will NOT reign is comprehensible.
Is it something.........'dirty,' or contemptible.......about the earth that Christ will never come back on it ever again in your opinion? Or is there something ugly and unworthy of Christ in the matter of visibly ruling over people and nations? You don't want your God to do that? (I'm humbly asking you these questions first, rather than first asking you to explain all the Scriptures that appear to emphatically contradict your teaching)
<sigh>
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
So, while the devil is chained up in the bottomless pit for a 1000 years (the millennium), which begins to take place when Christ returns, the earth is still here, and there are people on it.
Or else it would not say that when the devil is loosed again, he comes to deceive the nations once again and surround the camp of the saints.
etc, etc., etc.
Furthermore, Jesus says this:
Rev 2:26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.
F
Yes, certainly, and plainly. Not only so, Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus and is in Jesus.
He is His embodiment.
Indeed a day is coming for Jehovah when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city will go forth into captivity, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in a day of battle. And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle toward the...
Zechariah 14:1-4.
And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs; for they are the spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty. (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame.) And they gathered them to the place which in Hebrew is called, Armageddon
Rv 16:13-16.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself. And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty [cf 14:17-20]. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come here; gather yourselves to the great dinner of God, that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and slave and small and great.
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh
19:11-21
Is Christ able, or entitled, to both evangelize, then judge, the world?
Is Christ able, or entitled, to both rule on the throne of God in heaven now, and to rule from the throne of David on earth in the future and eternity?
Why would the earth be 'unworthy' of Christ to rule from and on?
Given that He created the heavens for the earth, and the earth for man in His image?
The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him
Zech 12:1.
If earth is not going to be Christ's dwelling, or dwelling site of His New Jerusalem for eternity, then why does He bother making a new earth? (Isaiah 66:18-22; 2 Pet 3;13; Rv 21:1)
Amen! Halleulujah. Then Christ is reigning in us to that extent : )
That is the most important subject to me
He is His embodiment.
Indeed a day is coming for Jehovah when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city will go forth into captivity, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in a day of battle. And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle toward the...
Zechariah 14:1-4.
And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs; for they are the spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty. (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame.) And they gathered them to the place which in Hebrew is called, Armageddon
Rv 16:13-16.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself. And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty [cf 14:17-20]. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come here; gather yourselves to the great dinner of God, that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and slave and small and great.
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh
19:11-21
Is Christ able, or entitled, to both evangelize, then judge, the world?
Is Christ able, or entitled, to both rule on the throne of God in heaven now, and to rule from the throne of David on earth in the future and eternity?
Why would the earth be 'unworthy' of Christ to rule from and on?
Given that He created the heavens for the earth, and the earth for man in His image?
The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him
Zech 12:1.
If earth is not going to be Christ's dwelling, or dwelling site of His New Jerusalem for eternity, then why does He bother making a new earth? (Isaiah 66:18-22; 2 Pet 3;13; Rv 21:1)
Amen! Halleulujah. Then Christ is reigning in us to that extent : )
That is the most important subject to me
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they saw Him going in the clouds. They will see Him coming in the clouds. But all the scenes of Him coming are to the air not to earth. He will come as the Lord of glory and will draw His own to Himself. Then He will call time on the universe as heaven and earth flee from before Him, and will carry out the last judgment and take His people into the everlasting kingdom.
Only to the air.
Anything to do with God and the heavenly sphere is beyond our total comprehension. Now we see through a glass dimly.
They are certainly outside time as we know it (although we don't actually understand time).
heaven and earth has fled away from before Him. thus this judgment also is outside earthly time. time as we know it ceases at the Rapture.
The FACT that He reigns it mainly comprehensible, although we cannot know His methods and ways. He reigns now, and we can ENJOY THE ASSURANCE OF IT. But we do not understand it fully. His everlasting reign is even more incomprehensible. We think of it in earthly terms for w can understand nothing else.
we can know the FACT of both. What we cannot understand is the method. How long do you think it will take God to judge the world? A micro- second? a nano-second? Or is that too long?
.
He reigns continually. He has reigned since the beginning of creation. Certainly it is comprehensible that He will not reign as an earthly king. If He did none would ever question His rule. He is GOD. No rebellion could stand for a moment before Him. The rape of the world as described in Rev 20 would be impossible if Christ were truly reigning on earth.
Well the earth is certainly dirty and contemptible. But He has far higher purposes than ruling over our miserable earth. He is the Lord of glory.
Certainly something illogical and purposeless. His reign will continue in the heavens.
It is not what I want, it is what God has revealed. He gave to Abraham the promise that he would rule over 'the land'. But the fulfilment of it will be in heaven (Heb 11.10-14). Why should it be different for Jesus? The New Testament revealed a whole new ball game. Earthly promises were replaced by heavenly promises. What the prophets saw dimly was made clear. Jesus knew of no millennium, nor did Paul or Peter.
Only to the air.
Anything to do with God and the heavenly sphere is beyond our total comprehension. Now we see through a glass dimly.
They are certainly outside time as we know it (although we don't actually understand time).
heaven and earth has fled away from before Him. thus this judgment also is outside earthly time. time as we know it ceases at the Rapture.
The FACT that He reigns it mainly comprehensible, although we cannot know His methods and ways. He reigns now, and we can ENJOY THE ASSURANCE OF IT. But we do not understand it fully. His everlasting reign is even more incomprehensible. We think of it in earthly terms for w can understand nothing else.
we can know the FACT of both. What we cannot understand is the method. How long do you think it will take God to judge the world? A micro- second? a nano-second? Or is that too long?
.
He reigns continually. He has reigned since the beginning of creation. Certainly it is comprehensible that He will not reign as an earthly king. If He did none would ever question His rule. He is GOD. No rebellion could stand for a moment before Him. The rape of the world as described in Rev 20 would be impossible if Christ were truly reigning on earth.
Well the earth is certainly dirty and contemptible. But He has far higher purposes than ruling over our miserable earth. He is the Lord of glory.
Certainly something illogical and purposeless. His reign will continue in the heavens.
It is not what I want, it is what God has revealed. He gave to Abraham the promise that he would rule over 'the land'. But the fulfilment of it will be in heaven (Heb 11.10-14). Why should it be different for Jesus? The New Testament revealed a whole new ball game. Earthly promises were replaced by heavenly promises. What the prophets saw dimly was made clear. Jesus knew of no millennium, nor did Paul or Peter.