The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
- Thread starter Budman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Then you aren't actually reading my posts.
Where you and I differ greatly, is you believe your must work/obey to maintain salvation - I do not.
Why? Because my salvation isn't based on me at all. It's based on the finished work of Christ. I had/have nothing to do with it except to accept the pardon that God offers through Jesus. The Father drew me to Christ, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and need for a savior, and Jesus saved me by grace alone, through faith alone, in Him alone.
Salvation is a gift - plain and simple.
We obey because of our love and gratefulness for the sacrifice of Christ - not because of obligation. I owe nothing because I could never pay enough for what Jesus did. It is not a partnership. It isn't a "little" of me and "a lot" of Jesus. I am justified simply because God placed the righteousness of Jesus Christ into my account.
It's an insult to God to try and bribe Him with our works in an effort to maintain our salvation. We can't add to what Jesus did, because He did it all. There is absolutely no condemnation for me - nor can there ever be. The blood of Jesus was enough to cleanse me of my sin for all time.
Where you and I differ greatly, is you believe your must work/obey to maintain salvation - I do not.
Why? Because my salvation isn't based on me at all. It's based on the finished work of Christ. I had/have nothing to do with it except to accept the pardon that God offers through Jesus. The Father drew me to Christ, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and need for a savior, and Jesus saved me by grace alone, through faith alone, in Him alone.
Salvation is a gift - plain and simple.
We obey because of our love and gratefulness for the sacrifice of Christ - not because of obligation. I owe nothing because I could never pay enough for what Jesus did. It is not a partnership. It isn't a "little" of me and "a lot" of Jesus. I am justified simply because God placed the righteousness of Jesus Christ into my account.
It's an insult to God to try and bribe Him with our works in an effort to maintain our salvation. We can't add to what Jesus did, because He did it all. There is absolutely no condemnation for me - nor can there ever be. The blood of Jesus was enough to cleanse me of my sin for all time.
Scripture does not support that view, Jason.
It's belief in Who Jesus is and what HE did and does for us as our High Priest that the gift of coming before His Throne of Grace is given (Heb, 4). And it is there where we are given strength in our times of weakness.
Your system of belief makes one want to hide sinning or just deny that it's happening.
-JGIG
It's belief in Who Jesus is and what HE did and does for us as our High Priest that the gift of coming before His Throne of Grace is given (Heb, 4). And it is there where we are given strength in our times of weakness.
Your system of belief makes one want to hide sinning or just deny that it's happening.
-JGIG
Well, for one, you have sinned just today because you falsely accused me and you did not even apologize about it. Nowhere did I say that a believer can be a child molester and still be saved or even struggle in being one and be saved and yet that is what you accused me of believing when I said no such thing. You merely made an assumption and ran off with something else I said and you did not ask to clarify if that is what I believed or not. You just falsely accused me with no apologies. I said there are greater sins that a believer will put away behind them. It is a very serious sin. However, what I would like to know is that if you think that a believer cannot be forgiven of sin if they are struggling with sin, then what do you make of the Tax Collector in Luke 18:9-14? Was he saved? If so, then how?
As for your statement of saying you do not commit sins unto death: So you are saying that you have not lied, not hated, not had a wrong thought, and you have helped the poor this week? When people talk to you, do they think your words are full of grace seasoned with salt?
As for your statement of saying you do not commit sins unto death: So you are saying that you have not lied, not hated, not had a wrong thought, and you have helped the poor this week? When people talk to you, do they think your words are full of grace seasoned with salt?
Post #'s please. Show me where you said you must obey Jesus.
Okay. Forget what I just said above about the Post #'s. You do not actually believe in following Jesus if there is no real incentive for you to do so. For this means you can not follow Jesus and yet also be saved. Yet, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say?
Yet, the Grace of God does not teach this. Actually, Titus 2:11-12 says that the Grace of God teaches us that we are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and walk righteously in this present world. That is what the Grace of God teaches us and it is not your version of Grace.
Like all gifts in life, they must be taken care of or maintained, or you will not have them for very long.
Romans 4:4 disagrees with you. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Also, there is Condemnation to those who walk after the flesh. That is what Romans 8:1 says. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The Bible also says this about the Condemnation.
"19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
Did you catch that? It says everyone who does evil hates the light. Not sure how your belief actually supercedes or over-rides that passage.
Okay. Forget what I just said above about the Post #'s. You do not actually believe in following Jesus if there is no real incentive for you to do so. For this means you can not follow Jesus and yet also be saved. Yet, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say?
Yet, the Grace of God does not teach this. Actually, Titus 2:11-12 says that the Grace of God teaches us that we are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and walk righteously in this present world. That is what the Grace of God teaches us and it is not your version of Grace.
Like all gifts in life, they must be taken care of or maintained, or you will not have them for very long.
Romans 4:4 disagrees with you. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Also, there is Condemnation to those who walk after the flesh. That is what Romans 8:1 says. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The Bible also says this about the Condemnation.
"19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
Did you catch that? It says everyone who does evil hates the light. Not sure how your belief actually supercedes or over-rides that passage.
1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins unto death and sins not unto death. Sins unto death would be the sins that Paul lists several times in the New Testament whereby he says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Such as lying, murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.). John also lists these sins and actually ties these types of sin as being in connection with DEATH (like Paul does at the end of Romans chapter 1). For John says that those who do such sins (that he lists) in Revelation 21:8, will face the Second DEATH (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Sins that do not lead unto death are those sins that are confessed and forsaken (Proverbs 28:13). Sins that do not lead unto death would be hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12).
Last edited:
Proverbs 28:13 does not say that confession and turning from sin garners salvation.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us ALL our unrighteousness except what happens in the future.
Oh wait, that last part after unrighteousness is not actually in that Scripture.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin except for sins that we commit after we are cleansed, so it's not really ALL sin, but just SOME sin.
Oh wait, that last part after 'all sin' is not actually in that Scripture, either.
You're conforming Scripture to your belief system, Jason, not conforming your belief system to Scripture.
-JGIG
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us ALL our unrighteousness except what happens in the future.
Oh wait, that last part after unrighteousness is not actually in that Scripture.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin except for sins that we commit after we are cleansed, so it's not really ALL sin, but just SOME sin.
Oh wait, that last part after 'all sin' is not actually in that Scripture, either.
You're conforming Scripture to your belief system, Jason, not conforming your belief system to Scripture.
-JGIG
No, you are changing the Word of God to what you want it to say. Those words are indeed in Scripture.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).
this post sounds (superficially) aggressive and violent.
i wonder if i ought to make a value judgement about it and aver dogmatically that it's categorically evil, before i understand what you're talking about, just based on a quick first impression without digging deeper into the meaning of what you're posting about?
nah, that'd be foolish of me.
nevermind; carry on
i wonder if i ought to make a value judgement about it and aver dogmatically that it's categorically evil, before i understand what you're talking about, just based on a quick first impression without digging deeper into the meaning of what you're posting about?
nah, that'd be foolish of me.
nevermind; carry on
Don't twist my words Jason.
I asked you specifically why a child molester does not get the pass that you give the drunk?
Instead of answering that question and thus the real context of what I wrote you address a strawman.
I'll ask again,
If a drunkard can "confess they are a sinner" and "accept Jesus" and thus have this "substitutional provision" you believe in "applied" and then subsequently go out and get drunk and still have the provision in application so long as they "repent" then why do you not apply the same standard to a child molester?
Surely a child molester can "confess they are a sinner" and "accept Jesus" and thus have this "substitutional provision," you believe in, "applied" and then subsequently go out and molest another child and still have the provision in application so long as they "repent." If not why not? Why does drunkenness get a pass and child molestation not get a pass?
You have just dodged that question and twisted it into an accusation of me saying that you believe that a child molester can engage in molestation and be saved. I never said such a thing, clearly you deny such a thing BUT you don't deny "sinning and being saved" when it comes to getting drunk. Your logic is not consistent.
You clearly stated what you believe.
You have clearly implied that a drunkard can confess they are a sinner and accept Jesus as their saviour and thus have the Substitionary Atonement (that you believe in) applied to them. Then is they subsequently go our and get drunk but repent (whatever that means) then the Substititionary Atonement is still applied.
Clearly you uphold a sin/repent/sin/repent cycle.
What do you think you need to clarify?
You have brought up examples of David and Noah engaging in wrongdoing in context with your position on the drunkard. In other words you believe a believer can occasionally engage in evil and simply "repent" each time and remain covered, so to speak, by the provision of Penal Substitution.
Why don't you answer my questions instead of reverting to a strawman?
What false accusation? This...
I never accused you of that. I asked why do you not give a child molester a pass when you give the drunkard a pass?
It would be better for you to actually address what I write than implicate that which is not there. Now I know it may be EASIER for you to implicate fictions as those fictions allow you to ignore examining the fundamentals of what you actually believe.
An individual "struggling with sin" is not a believer. Believers are servants of righteousness, not servants of sin.
The very fact that you can equate a believer with an addicted servant of sin demonstrates just how perverted your theological system actually is.
The Tax Collecter repented. He was not out ripping people off. He was coming clean with God. The Bible says that he who confesses and FORSAKES their sin shall have mercy, you even quote that scripture. The Bible doesn't say he who "serves sin and does not like it" has mercy. Isn't that what you are implying?
I answered your question but you have not answered mine. Instead you take my answer and respond as if I didn't really mean what I said. I clearly stated that I have stopped obeying sin unto death and instead obey unto righteousness. is that not enough for you? Do you really need to ask me if I lie, hate, and/or despise the needy?
Also a "wrong thought" is not necessarily a sin unto death. We live in a world of iniquity and "wrong thoughts" are easily wrought simply through what we may see or here or even memories of our old lives. The issue is whether we put a "wrong thought" to death and bring every thought into subjection to Christ. That is the issue.
Now here is my question again, the question you chose not to answer...
Have you been made free from sin wherefore you have become a servant of righteousness? Have you obeyed from the heart to the doctrine delivered to us by Jesus Christ, the doctrine of HEAR AND DO?
Also here is an earlier question I asked, another question which you also chose to decline a response.
Do you have any testimony of your heart being made pure Jason?
Does your theology uphold heart purity in a believer Jason?
I asked you specifically why a child molester does not get the pass that you give the drunk?
Instead of answering that question and thus the real context of what I wrote you address a strawman.
I'll ask again,
If a drunkard can "confess they are a sinner" and "accept Jesus" and thus have this "substitutional provision" you believe in "applied" and then subsequently go out and get drunk and still have the provision in application so long as they "repent" then why do you not apply the same standard to a child molester?
Surely a child molester can "confess they are a sinner" and "accept Jesus" and thus have this "substitutional provision," you believe in, "applied" and then subsequently go out and molest another child and still have the provision in application so long as they "repent." If not why not? Why does drunkenness get a pass and child molestation not get a pass?
You have just dodged that question and twisted it into an accusation of me saying that you believe that a child molester can engage in molestation and be saved. I never said such a thing, clearly you deny such a thing BUT you don't deny "sinning and being saved" when it comes to getting drunk. Your logic is not consistent.
You clearly stated what you believe.
You have clearly implied that a drunkard can confess they are a sinner and accept Jesus as their saviour and thus have the Substitionary Atonement (that you believe in) applied to them. Then is they subsequently go our and get drunk but repent (whatever that means) then the Substititionary Atonement is still applied.
Clearly you uphold a sin/repent/sin/repent cycle.
What do you think you need to clarify?
You have brought up examples of David and Noah engaging in wrongdoing in context with your position on the drunkard. In other words you believe a believer can occasionally engage in evil and simply "repent" each time and remain covered, so to speak, by the provision of Penal Substitution.
Why don't you answer my questions instead of reverting to a strawman?
What false accusation? This...
I never accused you of that. I asked why do you not give a child molester a pass when you give the drunkard a pass?
It would be better for you to actually address what I write than implicate that which is not there. Now I know it may be EASIER for you to implicate fictions as those fictions allow you to ignore examining the fundamentals of what you actually believe.
An individual "struggling with sin" is not a believer. Believers are servants of righteousness, not servants of sin.
The very fact that you can equate a believer with an addicted servant of sin demonstrates just how perverted your theological system actually is.
The Tax Collecter repented. He was not out ripping people off. He was coming clean with God. The Bible says that he who confesses and FORSAKES their sin shall have mercy, you even quote that scripture. The Bible doesn't say he who "serves sin and does not like it" has mercy. Isn't that what you are implying?
I answered your question but you have not answered mine. Instead you take my answer and respond as if I didn't really mean what I said. I clearly stated that I have stopped obeying sin unto death and instead obey unto righteousness. is that not enough for you? Do you really need to ask me if I lie, hate, and/or despise the needy?
Also a "wrong thought" is not necessarily a sin unto death. We live in a world of iniquity and "wrong thoughts" are easily wrought simply through what we may see or here or even memories of our old lives. The issue is whether we put a "wrong thought" to death and bring every thought into subjection to Christ. That is the issue.
Now here is my question again, the question you chose not to answer...
Have you been made free from sin wherefore you have become a servant of righteousness? Have you obeyed from the heart to the doctrine delivered to us by Jesus Christ, the doctrine of HEAR AND DO?
Also here is an earlier question I asked, another question which you also chose to decline a response.
Do you have any testimony of your heart being made pure Jason?
Does your theology uphold heart purity in a believer Jason?
Last edited: