Hebrews Study

[just-me]

I will discuss that in chapter seven.

What chapter are you on right now? I am having a hard time with your progression after 7 pages.

 

[just-me]

What chapter are you on right now? I am having a hard time with your progression after 7 pages.

Sorry OH is see that you are still on chapter 2. My error.

 

[oldhermit]

What chapter are you on right now? I am having a hard time with your progression after 7 pages.

I just finished chapter one.

 

[MarcR]

I apologize for the formatting. I do not know what the problem is but I could not get it to format properly.

M. Jesus is the Creator of heaven and earth, 10 (Psalms 102:25). “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:” 10. The writer is reemphasizing what he said in verse 3. Jesus is the one who is the author of creation but now, he stresses the active nature of Jesus' involvement. He laid the foundations of the earth and fashioned the heavens with his own hand.\

​

1. Foundation – ἐθεμελίωσας (ethemeliosas) from θεμέλιος (themelios) meaning a substructure or a foundation, hence to lay a basis upon which the earth was established. What are the foundations of the earth? Are we talking about the entire structure of natural principles or laws – physics and physiology which are put in place to enable natural processes to function? Are we talking about the creation of sub-atomic order that governs the behavior of the elements which serve as the building blocks of everything in the natural world? I do not know if I can answer this question.
2. Works – ἔργον (ergon) – This demands active participation in the formation of all matter that exists in the universe - “the heavens”.
3. The order is that which is recorded in Genesis chapter one. The earth was first established and created and then the creation of the hosts of heaven followed.

​

N. The contrast of creation to Jesus, 11-12 (Psalms 102:26-27) “They shall perish; but you remain and they all shall become old as a garment; and as a vesture you shall fold them up, and they shall be changed: but you are the same, and your years shall not fail.”​

1. The temporal and mutable nature of creation is expressed in four-fold fashion.
​

a. “They shall perish.”
b. They will “become old as a garment”
c. They will be “folded up.”
d. They shall be “changed,” discarded as opposed to replaced.
​

What this tells us about the natural world is that it is not self-sustaining. Everything in creation is dependent upon Jesus as its Creator.


​

d. They shall be “changed,” discarded as opposed to replaced.

While I believe that is a valid reading; I see a double take here, and believe both takes are intended.

Because I believe that God is sufficiently able to communicate that He is able to avoid ambiguity; I believe double takes are intentional, and that both takes should be translated.

The alternate reading is they shall be transformed. The word תַּחֲלִיפֵ֣ם translated as changed is the hiphel imperfect of חָלַף which can mean pass away; or transform, or renew.

The alternate reading is consistent with 1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV;
though the Greek ἀλλάσσω only carries the meaning 'transformed.

 

[oldhermit]

Does anyone wish to proceed with chapter two?

 

[psychomom]

Does anyone wish to proceed with chapter two?

yes, please, as you and others are ready.

 

[MarcR]

I would like to know haw many would like for me to continue on with the presentation of chapter two.

Please Do!!

 

[oldhermit]

Chapter Two


​

I. Superiority of the Message Spoken Through the Son, 1-4.
A. “For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.”

1. “For this..." Διὰ τοῦτο (dia touto) - nomnative singular neuter of οὗτος (houtos). This is more definitive than simply 'therefore'. While this could certainly belong to everything the writer has just revealed to us out of chapter one, the immediate preceding antecedent is the privileged status that is ours. In other words, since we are heirs of salvation we must attend to the things we learn is chapter one that correspond to τοῦτο (touto).

a. Because Jesus is:

* The final Spokesman of deity
* Creator and Sustainer of all things
* Our High Priest and King
* The sacrifice for purification
* The First-born of the Father
* The God of heaven and earth

b. And since we are:

* The recipients of the Word spoken through the Son
* The objects of his purification
* The creation of his hands
* The heirs of salvation
We are “for this reason" to "pay much closer attention to what we have heard.”

2. “Must” – δεῖ (dei) – This is an imperative - It is binding, necessary, right, proper. It simply offers no acceptable alternative.
3. “Pay much closer attention.” I like the way this is translated in the KJV – “Give the more earnest heed.” This language seems to better relate the absolute imperative nature represented by the δεῖ.
4. “To what we have heard.” This is contrasted to the prevoius message which had been spoken through angels. This stresses the superiority of the message spoken through the Son over that which was spoken through the prophets.
5. “Lest we drift away from it.” This cautions us to fidelity to the message. It a warning against apathy. The Word of God functions as a set of revealed constraints against sinful behavior. In order for behavior to be controlled, the mind must first be entrained, Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Ephesians 6:14-18, and Isaiah 59:16-20. This is how Israel was commanded to do it, it how Jesus did it, and it is how we are commanded to do it.

B. The Power of the Message Spoken Through Angels, 2
“For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,” Even that message was not to be ignored by those who heard it. Even for those who heard that message it was:

1. Unalterable, uncompromising, unyielding, and carried all the authority of heaven. Thus, it was:
2. Self-protecting and binding.

a. Every transgression and disobedience - That message was no respecter of persons. From the king to the priest, from the priest to the people, it made the same demands and exacted the same penalty for transgression.
b. A just penalty

* Transgression required a sacrifice and sometimes remuneration by the offender. Every transgression demanded blood; if not of an animal then that of the transgressor.
* Just as the justice of God protects the holiness of God, so also the justice of the law protected the integrity of the law.

C. The certainty of consequences for us, 3a - “How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” As certain as were the consequences for those under the First Covenant, even more certain are the consequences for those of us under the New Covenant. The is no escape.

1. Negligence – ἀμελήσαντες (amelnsantes) – 1 aorist - According to Strong's Concordance this emphasizes disregard, carelessness, or making light of. There is no need to openly defy or reject. Simple apathy and intellectual laziness will do it.
2. Drifting away – the παραρυῶμεν (pararuomen) of verse one – This is a gradual process that carries with it the idea of passivity. Just drifting along aimlessly with no concern for the consequences of one's neglect.

D. The revelation continuum, 3b
“After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,” This revelation continuum, as with all others, begins with the Lord and ends with us. This message was:

1. First spoken through the Lord. The Lord is Jesus. He is presented as the primary source.
2. This is the message that was delivered by Jesus to the apostles. These are “those who heard” the message directly from the Lord himself, those who were tutored by the Master. Those who were the secondary sources.
3. This message was then relayed by the apostles to "us." All those hearers who came after the apostles become tertiary sources of the message. The 'us' also tells us something else. It tells us that whoever the writer of the Hebrew letter is, he is not an apostle but a second generation Christian. He classifies himself with the 'us' thus, he is himself one who heard the message not directly from the Lord, but from those who heard, i.e. the apostles.

E. The power of the divine testimony that certifies the message. “God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.” It is important that we understand the implications of τε (te)– 'both'. The writer is not giving us a list of four things that served as credentials of the message. Rather, he is giving us two categories of witness. The first is comprised of signs, wonders and miracles and the second is the Holy Spirit.

1. Signs, wonders and miracles – While the ideas behind these words are very similar, they are not so similar that we cannot pull them apart and examined separately. The combination of these three witnesses represent function, response, and power.

a. Signs – σημείοις Isameiois)– The function of any sign was to serve as a revealed symbol to help us see that is received from beyond the natural world.
b. Wonders – τέρασιν (terasin) – This illustrates the human response to the signs.
c. Miracles – δυνάμεσιν (dunamesin) – The is a demonstration of power which proves that God is behind the message that is being delivered.

2. The μερισμός (merismos)– sharing or distribution of the Holy Spirit - This does not refer to the power given to individuals to perform miraculous feats. That is all implied in the signs, wonders and miracles. This is speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit who is given to every Christian.

 

[purgedconscience]

There is certainly no need to unsubscribe. Do not feel you are under any pressure to keep up with others on the thread. Take your tome, read and respond at you own pace. All of have important things in life that require our attention, some even have jobs. This thread isn't going anywhere. That is one advantage of the BDF.

Okay. I'll try to catch up one post at a time.

Through Jesus, we are now able to enter into the very presence of God, into the holy of holies and receive the blessings of forgiveness. This is what was signified in the tearing of the veil of the temple at the death of Christ. The veil signified the fact that man did not have access to God except through the sacrificial system of the Law of Moses. When that veil was torn, God is signifying that through the death of Christ, man has now been granted access to God through Jesus Christ, 4:14-16; 6:19-20; 11:24. The old mode of access has been abrogated.

Yes and the writer of this epistle said that the veil was actually symbolic of Christ's flesh:

Hebrews chapter 10 verses 19 and 20

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

I suspect that Charles Wesley had this in mind when he penned Hark the Herald Angels Sing:

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
Hail the incarnate Deity,
Pleased with us in flesh to dwell,
Jesus our Emmanuel.

 

[oldhermit]

Okay. I'll try to catch up one post at a time.

Yes and the writer of this epistle said that the veil was actually symbolic of Christ's flesh:

Hebrews chapter 10 verses 19 and 20

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

I suspect that Charles Wesley had this in mind when he penned Hark the Herald Angels Sing:

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
Hail the incarnate Deity,
Pleased with us in flesh to dwell,
Jesus our Emmanuel.

I really glad you are staying. I do appreciate you comments.

 

[purgedconscience]

I really glad you are staying. I do appreciate you comments.

As much as I love the entire Bible, the epistle to the Hebrews has a very special place in my heart. I've obviously drawn both my username and my avatar from what is contained within it and I doubt that I'd even be alive if it wasn't for this epistle. Without going into detail, my early years were marked by heavy condemnation and God has used this epistle to help me to understand the role of Christ as my High Priest and the benefits of His sacrifice on my behalf. Yes, my conscience has been purged, as my username indicates, and the way into the Holiest of all has been made open unto me and all others who belong to Christ. This is a very sober epistle, though, even as you've just begun to address one of the many warnings contained within its pages.

Back to catching up...

 

[oldhermit]

As much as I love the entire Bible, the epistle to the Hebrews has a very special place in my heart. I've obviously drawn both my username and my avatar from what is contained within it and I doubt that I'd even be alive if it wasn't for this epistle. Without going into detail, my early years were marked by heavy condemnation and God has used this epistle to help me to understand the role of Christ as my High Priest and the benefits of His sacrifice on my behalf. Yes, my conscience has been purged, as my username indicates, and the way into the Holiest of all has been made open unto me and all others who belong to Christ. This is a very sober epistle, though, even as you've just begun to address one of the many warnings contained within its pages.

Back to catching up...

Yes, Hebrews has always been my favorite book of the Bible. I have a deep passion for this magnificent work.

 

[purgedconscience]

H. Jesus is the prototype for redeemed humanity. “I shall be a Father to him and he shall be a Son to me. And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship him."

1. “A Father" - πατέρα – This signifies authorship, a progenitor, usually with regard to a family line. It also describes the beginning of a society whose members possess the same spirit as its author. This idea is embodied in role of Abraham. Physically, he is the progenitor of an entire race – Jews. Paul also reveals him as the “father” of the circumcised of heart who possess the same faith or spirit as that of Abraham, Romans four. Through Jesus, God has brought forth a new society of people who are animated by the same Spirit of God. This idea is further illustrated in the concept of “First-born” as we will see in chapter six.

2. “A Son” - This implies a relationship of submission in his redemptive and mediatorial role. “Will be” suggests a change in status. If the implication is one of subjection, it then follows that Jesus, prior to his incarnation, was not in subjection to the Father as a subordinate being or even as a lesser member of the Godhead. Philippians 2:5-11 explains very well the idea of subjection and subordination as a change of status that is outside the norm. What Jesus surrendered in becoming man was not IN-equality but equality. It is impossible to surrender that which one does not possess.

I agree.

I'd be curious to see if anybody believes that they can document the Father/Son relationship having been in existence prior to Christ's incarnation. The Old Testament certainly seems to be silent in this regard and I believe that that is for good reason.

3. “First-born” – πρωτότοκον – This defines the first of anything that is born of flock, heard, or even men. Jesus becomes the first, the προς τον τυρον – the one for the pattern. He is the prototype of a new society of those who by faith become children of God, Romans 8:29; those of whom John says, “are born not of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the God,” John 1:12-13. Jesus becomes the forerunner of the sons of God through his resurrection,“You are my Son; Today I have begotten you.” Firstborn also implies that others are to follow.

The significance of firstborn has its roots in the Old Testament. Being the firstborn son carried prestige, honor, privilege, blessing, authority, and double portion inheritance. Being the firstborn was also a matter of consecration to God, Exodus 13:3,11-16. In the New Testament, Jesus is called “firstborn” eight times and always with the same implications.

a. He was the first-born of Mary, Luke 2:7, Matthew 1:25. We know Mary had other children whose names are recorded in Matthew 13:55-56 but, Jesus was her firstborn. He was the first in the order of others that followed.
b. He is called the firstborn among many brethren, Romans 8:29. He is the prototype - the first, into whose image Christians are to conform.
c. He is called the firstborn in Hebrews12:23 to whom the church belongs.
d. He is called the firstborn of every creature, Colossians 1:15-17. He is not firstborn because he was created first. He is first-born because:

* All things were created by him. He is the active cause of all things that exist and the one to whom all things belong.
* He is before all things – this establishes divine preeminence.
* He holds all things together. This illustrates divine power.

e. He is called firstborn from among the dead, Colossians 1:18. This does not means that he was the first one ever resurrected from the dead. It does not even mean that he is the first one resurrected from the dead never to die again. What it means is that he holds preeminent status because:

* He is the head of the body.
* He is the ἀρχή – the beginning as in the active cause, the one through whose power all things had their beginning.
* He is the first one of a new society of sons of God.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but don't those two bold-faced portions contradict each other?

I agree with you that Jesus has become a forerunner of the sons of God through His resurrection from the dead and that this implies that others are to follow. In fact, I believe that this ties in perfectly with Christ being the firstfruits of them that slept or the fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits:

I Corinthians chapter 15 verses 19 thru 23

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ definitely is the first one resurrected from the dead never to die again and I believe that there is at least one Old Testament application were the use of firstborn relates to this as well:

Psalm 89 verses 20 thru 37

I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

David means beloved and it is sometimes used in scripture not to describe David the son of Jesse, but rather Jesus the son of David. For example, in Ezekiel we read:

Ezekiel chapter 34 verses 23 and 24

And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

The LORD uttered this prophecy through the mouth of Ezekiel not in relation to David the son of Jesse who was long dead at this point in time, but rather in relation to His beloved (David) or in relation to Jesus Christ, the son of David. Going back to Psalm 89 verse 27, this David is also a reference to God's beloved, Jesus Christ, Whom God said that He would make His firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Well, when did God do this? Prior to His incarnation, the Word or the One Whom we now refer to as Jesus was already higher than the kings of the earth. In fact, He was fully God from eternity past. This reference to David or to God's beloved is in relation to the incarnate Christ and His exaltation to the right hand of the Father after His resurrection from the dead. Yes, the David Who is firstborn and higher than the kings of the earth is THE MAN Christ Jesus. Don't get me wrong, He's still fully God, but the only mediator between God and man is THE MAN Christ Jesus and this is very significant. I know that I keep on hammering this point home, but we really need to grasp it and the implications of the same.

 

[oldhermit]

I agree.

I'd be curious to see if anybody believes that they can document the Father/Son relationship having been in existence prior to Christ's incarnation. The Old Testament certainly seems to be silent in this regard and I believe that that is for good reason.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but don't those two bold-faced portions contradict each other?

I agree with you that Jesus has become a forerunner of the sons of God through His resurrection from the dead and that this implies that others are to follow. In fact, I believe that this ties in perfectly with Christ being the firstfruits of them that slept or the fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits:

I Corinthians chapter 15 verses 19 thru 23

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ definitely is the first one resurrected from the dead never to die again and I believe that there is at least one Old Testament application were the use of firstborn relates to this as well:

Psalm 89 verses 20 thru 37

I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

David means beloved and it is sometimes used in scripture not to describe David the son of Jesse, but rather Jesus the son of David. For example, in Ezekiel we read:

Ezekiel chapter 34 verses 23 and 24

And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

The LORD uttered this prophecy through the mouth of Ezekiel not in relation to David the son of Jesse who was long dead at this point in time, but rather in relation to His beloved (David) or in relation to Jesus Christ, the son of David. Going back to Psalm 89 verse 27, this David is also a reference to God's beloved, Jesus Christ, Whom God said that He would make His firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Well, when did God do this? Prior to His incarnation, the Word or the One Whom we now refer to as Jesus was already higher than the kings of the earth. In fact, He was fully God from eternity past. This reference to David or to God's beloved is in relation to the incarnate Christ and His exaltation to the right hand of the Father after His resurrection from the dead. Yes, the David Who is firstborn and higher than the kings of the earth is THE MAN Christ Jesus. Don't get me wrong, He's still fully God, but the only mediator between God and man is THE MAN Christ Jesus and this is very significant. I know that I keep on hammering this point home, but we really need to grasp it and the implications of the same.

I was not suggesting that Jesus was not the first one raised from the dead never to die again. I accept this as an axium. All I was saying was I am not sure this is the idea intended in this Colossians 1:18, although it could certainly imply that as well.

 

[purgedconscience]

I was not suggesting that Jesus was not the first one raised from the dead never to die again. I accept this as an axium. All I was saying was I am not sure this is the idea intended in this Colossians 1:18, although it could certainly imply that as well.

Oh, okay.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[MarcR]

As much as I love the entire Bible, the epistle to the Hebrews has a very special place in my heart. I've obviously drawn both my username and my avatar from what is contained within it and I doubt that I'd even be alive if it wasn't for this epistle. Without going into detail, my early years were marked by heavy condemnation and God has used this epistle to help me to understand the role of Christ as my High Priest and the benefits of His sacrifice on my behalf. Yes, my conscience has been purged, as my username indicates, and the way into the Holiest of all has been made open unto me and all others who belong to Christ. This is a very sober epistle, though, even as you've just begun to address one of the many warnings contained within its pages.

Back to catching up...

I know I'm not alone in being glad you decided not to leave!

 

[purgedconscience]

The use of the term "first-born" is applied not to Jesus incarnation but to his resurrection. Since it is as first-born that he enters into the world in question, it must then be understood in the same context.

I agree.

The world then applies to his resurrection into his reign. This reign includes his sovereignty over all the nations of the earth. The time of his reign is not future but present. The scope of his reign includes the nations of the earth as an inheritance and the ends of the earth as a possession, Psalms 2:8.

Here is where there is some disagreement between us. Before I address it, I'd like to remind you of something that I said in your original Hebrews thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117778-hebrews-2.html#post2172679

I understand that the BDF is more like a war zone at times than a calm sharing environment, but why can't a group of people agree to discuss the epistle to the Hebrews civilly in the type of setting where everybody gets to share their own insights? Boundaries could be set in advance like no beating a dead horse. In other words, after a certain portion has been addressed in a back and forth manner two or three times, all parties should just agree to move on and leave any potential increase in the hands of God, the only One Who can give the increase anyway.

With God as my Witness, I didn't enter back into this study to be disruptive or to usurp anybody else's authority and beating a dead horse is definitely not my modus operandi. I truly believe in merely planting and watering in relation to God's Word and then leaving any potential increase solely in the hands of God Who alone can give the same. As such, although I'm about to give some scriptural reasons why I disagree with you on a certain point, I'll let you and others know up front that I have no intention of trying to browbeat any of you into agreeing with my position. My conscience is simply bound to the Word of God and I am therefore compelled out of my love for God and His Word and my love for all of you as well to present what I believe to be the truth as respectfully and as concisely as I possibly can. I thank you all for understanding.

You cited Psalm 2 verse 8 as a proof text for your belief in the present reign of Christ over all the nations of the earth. I'll now cite the same while including verse 9 as well and offer my own understanding of the passage which greatly differs from your own:

Psalm 2 verses 8 and 9

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

In this prophetic Psalm, Christ's inheritance which includes His receiving the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession is directly linked to the timeframe of Him breaking them with a rod of iron and dashing them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Is this timeframe a present reality or yet off in the future? There are three references to Psalm 2 verse 9 in the book of Revelation which answer this question for us, so I am going to cite them now:

Revelation chapter 2 verses 24 thru 27

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

At the time of John's writing, Christ had already come the first time so when Christ admonished those to whom He was speaking to hold fast till I come, He was most definitely referring to the timeframe of His second coming. What then did Christ promise those who would overcome and keep His works unto the end or up until the time of His second coming? He promised them the same thing that He had received of His Father or the same thing that His Father had promised Him back in the second Psalm. Yes, He promised them that at the time of His second coming that they would rule the nations with Him with a rod of iron and assist Him in breaking the same even as a vessel is broken in shivers by a potter. This is our first witness and here is the second witness:

Revelation chapter 12 verses 1 thru 5

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

When John mentioned a man child Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, He most definitely alluded to Psalm 2 verse 9. I'm no Greek scholar, but was to rule doesn't sound like is presently ruling to me. Again, this was written long after Christ's first coming, so this ruling seems to be yet future to me. This second witness may not be conclusive, but I believe that both the first and third witnesses are and here is the third witness:

Revelation chapter 19 verses 11 thru 16

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

John foresaw Christ's second coming as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and said that at this second coming this King shall rule them, the nations, with a rod of iron and he was directly referring to the fulfillment of that which had been prophesied in Psalm 2 verse 9. As such, I simply cannot see where Christ has already fulfilled the same. Hopefully, you and others will prayerfully consider this before the Lord.

In 1Peter 3:21, Peter says that angels, authorities, and powers have already been brought into subjection unto him.

Yes, they have been, but what exactly does this mean? In other words, who exactly are these authorities (exousia) and powers (dynamis)? The angels (aggelos) part is easy enough to discern. When He was raised from the dead, THE MAN Christ Jesus received, by inheritance, a more excellent name than they, Hebrews chapter 1 verse 4, with the they being the angels. When it comes to the authorities and powers though, different applications can apply. Sometimes authorities (exousia) are human beings, sometimes they are demonic in nature and sometimes this authority applies directly to the Holy Spirit and the same is true in relation to the powers (dynamis) as well and I could cite you many examples in relation to each category from the New Testament. How then are we to understand Peter's words? Personally, I understand them to mean that although Christ has been given all power (exousia) in heaven and earth, Matthew chapter 28 verse 18, we are to be going into the all the world and preaching repentance unto the nations that they might truly be subject unto Him and His coming kingdom, Matthew 28 verse 19. In other words, presently, only the angels are truly subject unto Him. Just look out the window or turn on your TV. Are the nations of this world currently in subjection to Christ and His rule or is this world yet full of rebellion which will ultimately be squelched at some future time in history? I fully believe that it is the latter of the two.

In Revelation 11:15, John says, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." This is not suggesting some millennial reign in which Jesus will finally conquer all the nations of the earth reordering their political structures.

With all due respect, I totally disagree with you here and I believe that you have pulled this verse totally out of context and applied to it a meaning which was never intended by the author. Here is the verse in a fuller context:

Revelation chapter 11 verses 1 thru 18

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you honestly believe that the opening verses of this chapter which all pertain to the second woe are already things of the past? I'm hoping that you don't. Why then should we even consider that what transpires after this second woe has past is a thing of the past or a present reality? In other words, why should we even consider that the kingdoms of this world have already become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ? Didn't Jesus teach us to pray, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven? Has Christ's kingdom already come? Is God's will presently being done in earth as it is in heaven? The timeframe of which John was speaking is the timeframe of God's wrath coming, the time of the dead that they should be judged, the rewarding of God's servants, the prophets, and the saints and the destruction of them which destroy the earth. Are these things past history or a present reality or are they yet future events which need to be fulfilled? We must view verses in their actual contextual timeframes.

The nations as an inheritance is the purchasing of men for God out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation, Revelation 5:9-10. The purchasing is accomplished through the preaching of the gospel, Colossians 1:5-6, 23.

Yes, God's purchasing price was the blood of Christ, but Revelation chapter 5 verses 9 and 10 speaks of a yet future timeframe:

Revelation chapter 5 verses 9 and 10

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These are the recorded voices of those in heaven who were looking forward to a yet future time when they shall reign on the earth. In other words, they obviously were not yet reigning on the earth.

Bringing Messiah into the world should be understood to be future only as it was seen through the eyes of the Old Testament prophets, not through the eyes of the first century writers and certainly not so through the eyes of the twentieth century reader. The Old Testament prophets were inspired to write of his reign as a future event. To them it certainly was. The New Testament writers quite from those prophets and make application of their words as an already accomplished event. The world to come of verse five has already been brought into subjection as verses 8-13 will go on to show us. This is the inauguration of Christ upon the throne of heaven. He is now the one who possesses the scepter of righteousness of the kingdom and is the anointed one over his companions. So, the world to come into which he enters as first-born is Messiah's reign as God upon the throne of heaven which is accomplished via his resurrection and ascenssion to the right hand.

The world to come is just that:

The world to come
.
It hasn't come yet and there are many references to the same throughout the remainder of the epistle to the Hebrews as we'll see as the study progresses. Also, although Christ does presently sit upon a throne in heaven, scripture has much to say about a yet future time during which Christ will sit upon the throne of David right here on earth. Christ hasn't yet received the kingdom even as He taught Himself:

Luke chapter 19 verses 11 thru 27

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Jesus taught this parable because His hearers mistakenly thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. In other words, He needed to correct their theology by informing them that the kingdom of God wouldn't truly appear until the timeframe of His second coming when He was returned, having received the kingdom. His servants, which includes us, are instructed to occupy until He comes or we are all instructed to use our God-given talents for the potential furtherance of the kingdom of God or that others might repent and be saved. Those who use their God-given talents in such a manner will be rewarded with authority over cities at Christ's second coming or they will assist Him in ruling the nations with a rod of iron as I've already discussed. Those who don't use their God-given talents in such a manner? Well, it certainly doesn't appear to me that they were once saved, always saved in that what had originally been given them was taken away from them, but that's another discussion for another day. At the timeframe of Christ's second coming, His enemies who refused His reign over them will be brought before Him and slain. How then can they possibly already be in subjection to Him? They're not.

I'm sorry for the length of this post and, again, I have no intention whatsoever of trying to browbeat anybody into subjection in relation to my own stated beliefs. I've merely sought to plant and water and my hope is that everybody reading will prayerfully consider what I've written before God.

I hope that I haven't abused or overstayed my welcome.

 

[oldhermit]

Rather than respond to all of this I think this is something that would be better if we discussed one-on-one off this thread.

 

[purgedconscience]

Rather than respond to all of this I think this is something that would be better if we discussed one-on-one off this thread.

That's fine. Like I said, I just wanted to offer a different understanding of certain passages as I believe that they are defined for us in scripture and then leave any potential increase in the hands of God. I'm not here to argue with you or with anybody else nor am I here to disrupt the flow of this study as I understand that there is yet a lot of material to cover. If you decide to just proceed at this point in time, then that is totally fine with me. Thank you.

 

[oldhermit]

That's fine. Like I said, I just wanted to offer a different understanding of certain passages as I believe that they are defined for us in scripture and then leave any potential increase in the hands of God. I'm not here to argue with you or with anybody else nor am I here to disrupt the flow of this study as I understand that there is yet a lot of material to cover. If you decide to just proceed at this point in time, then that is totally fine with me. Thank you.

Perhaps we could set aside some time to compare notes on eschatology.