The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

mailmandan · Jul 20, 2015

All I hear from Jason is "do this don't do that, performance based, revolving door salvation." Prior to my conversion to Christ, while still an unbeliever attending the Roman Catholic church, I lived in fear and bondage to IN-security with absolutely NO assurance of salvation and I was MISERABLE! Only after my conversion to Christ did I experience true freedom in Christ with absolute assurance of salvation (1 John 5:11-13). Praise the Lord!

just-me · Jul 20, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

Good possibility concerning Nicodemus and Jesus' conversation.

John 3:3,7, and 9-12
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

It appears that being born anew, or born again relates to circumcision of the heart, spiritually speaking. But that's a small part of the totality IMO. On the other hand, Nicodemus should have known, according to Jesus' words in verse 10, if being "born again" was only prophesied rather than previous to the New Testament. Then a person has to take into consideration that Jesus seems to be talking in the present rather than future, and the New Testament wasn't in effect until Jesus' death. (Hebrews 9:16-17)

phil112 · Jul 20, 2015

just-me said:

Surprising the number of folks on this board that appear to physically mature, from an age standpoint, and yet are not mature in the word much.

John 4:22-24 "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

mailmandan · Jul 20, 2015

Willie-T said:

I wasn't trying to sound cocky in post #514 by saying that many of the Jews rejected Jesus. I was just stating a fact. Like I said, I boast in Christ, not self. The majority of the world rejects Jesus as the only way to God back then and now (John 10:9; 14:6; Matthew 7:13-14). I believe that if we have accepted Christ today then we would have accepted Him back then and if we have rejected Christ today then we would have rejected Him back then as well. I can't see us using what time period we lived in or what our Nationality is as an excuse for either accepting or rejecting Christ.

jonl · Jul 20, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

I believe that what Jesus said on the Sermon of the Mount (Matthew 5 to 7) carries over to after his death and resurrection. The apostle Paul didn't contradict what Jesus said. Many have tried to misleadingly use what Paul said about "grace" to avoid what Jesus said. But if anyone knew about "grace" it would be Jesus. (John 1:16,17)

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[SUP]17[/SUP]For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
---------------------

Jesus said – (Matthew 5:16-20)

[SUP]6[/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]17[/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18[/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[SUP]19[/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20[/SUP]For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
-----------------------------

While this seems harsh, it beats not making it to heaven. The Lamb’s book of life is probably limited.

Willie-T · Jul 20, 2015

mailmandan said:

Not saying you were.... but we all Do have a tendency to look at those times, not from the position of wearing our sandals in the year 33AD, but from the aspect of a view 2,000 years removed, with a lot of knowledge they did not enjoy the luxury of reflecting back upon as we do. This often makes it seem easy for us to say what "a true Believer" would have done the moment they saw Jesus a quarter of a mile away, walking down the dusty road.

Most of us flare up over Joel Osteen because he (as Jesus did) represents the antithesis of what we have grown up KNOWING is the REAL church way. (No comparison or the two men intended, so let that one go.)

passing_through · Jul 20, 2015

Interrupting the conversation, but, the United Pentecostal Church is one of, if not the most legalistic "Christian" (so-called) cults. Men must all ways wear long sleeve shirt's and women must wear ankle length dresses and wear their hair in a Bun.

They hold to the Oneness Doctrine and the erroneous Holiness Doctrine, ie outward holiness.

Recently, I persuaded a man not to join them.

Cult of United Pentecostal Church (UPC)

peacefulbeliever · Jul 20, 2015

just-me said:

If I understand correctly - I think I agree.

Being born again is being born of the Spirit which = receiving the gift of holy Spirit wherein God and Christ dwell within a believer, i.e. when God creates Spirit within creating that new creation. This outpouring of the gift of holy Spirit was not given until Christ ascended up to heaven. . . so the people he was speaking to in the post I responded to were not born again.

senzi · Jul 20, 2015

passing_through said:

Well done for persuading a man not to join them.
Many pentecostals have misdirected zeal. I know, I was brought up in such a church

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

Willie-T said:

No. You are still an unbeliever even if you believe in GOD devoutly unless you become born again. Again, whatever false beliefs they had about forgiveness would have been corrected by them becoming born again according to the OSAS belief because everyone who is OSAS cannot ever not forgive. So it would be pointless to warn them about something that would not be a concern for them after having believed; And it would not help them to forgive others in unregenerate state, either.

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

Yes! Absolutely!

Here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):

[video=youtube;kesyd1H2osQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kesyd1H2osQ[/video]

I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

...

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

Ezekiel 44:9
"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

You cannot circumcise somebody's heart. That would be impossible. Only God can circumcise a person's heart. This is why Jesus said to Nicodemus that he should have known about this teaching about being born again. Only those who are spiritually circumcised in heart (i.e. born again spiritually) can enter the sanctuary. For you cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are born again. The OT saint is no exception. He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

passing_through said:

I have never been to one of their churches, but I have had several conversations with them before. I have argued with United Pentecostal folk before and had my fair share of problems with them in person even. They also believe that you cannot witness to someone while they are on their death bed (Which is absolutely ridiculous). They also wrongfullly believe in Baptismal Salvation; And as you pointed out they deny the Trinity (Which is clearly taught to us in 1 John 5:7 KJV).

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

mailmandan said:

The Law was not made for a righteous man. The LORD will lead a person into obeying His Word because they are of GOD. Granted, they can choose to disobey GOD, but then they would have to repent and get their heart right with Him, though. For do a study on "Free Will" in the Bible. Our "Free Will" is not taken away once we accept Christ. Yes, we have a new nature, but that new nature does not stop someone from not choosing Christ if that is their choice. Remember, the whole purpose God placed man in the Garden and gave him a test was to allow man to choose GOD of his own free will. Because if it is not free will, then it stops being a relationship that is true love. For every loving relationship is where two parties both agree to love one another. The moment you eliminate that.... is the moment you elimnate true love. So in a sense... what you are saying is that OSAS is not true love. Unless of course you believe God only chooses those He knows will obey Him. But see, this is unfair to those who want to act on God's promises to repent and be saved, though. For what if someone really does want to follow God, but it is only for a short time because they decide to then love the ways of the world again?

mailmandan · Jul 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Amen!

They will also experience chastisement from the Lord - Hebrews 12:6.

Our free will is not taken away, but it's not all about us either (Psalm 37:28; John 6:39; 10:27-28; 1 Corinthians 1:8; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1,24 etc..).

True love is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. The test of time demonstrates whether or not it was true love.

God knows who His elect are and God does not fatalistically determine who His elect are. He knows who will truly believe (and will continue to believe) and who will not.

That is shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away, unlike saving faith that continues and is firmly rooted in Christ. Follow for a short time is not truly following and is based on a shallow commitment. Of these types of people, Jesus said - John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Read on - 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

I agree that those who do not endure had no root in God's Word. These are the non-Elect. But again, God cannot go against His promises within His Word. If a person repents and accepts Christ according to the Scriptures, then they are saved. But the moment they fall away is where they become unsaved. The parable of the sower makes this an obvious fact (among many other verses).

Jason0047 · Jul 20, 2015

senzi said:

People just follow others and they really don't study the Scriptures for themselves. For I guarantee you if Satan was bound and you were trapped on an island with just a Bible, you would not even know what OSAS is. Because it does not exist in the Bible. There are too many warnings a believer has to ignore to make OSAS work.

phil112 · Jul 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Agree all you want, but that's incorrect. I speak from personal experience.
After I got saved I had many prayers answered. I had several very specific personal miracles done for me. There was no doubt in my mind, nor anyone's that knew me, that I was a believer.
Several years later, against God's advice, I remarried. 6 years later I drank myself into a coma and then spent a year in a convalescent facility.
While in that home I was able to renew my desire for His word and, thanks to His longsuffering towards me, become a member once more of the only flock that matters - Christ's.

Tell me Jason, do you think that a man that ingested nothing but whiskey for 6 weeks...no food, couldn't keep water down...no bible reading, no praying, no church, no one welcome to discuss the word in this house at that time...do you think that had I died I would have gone to heaven? Of course not. I had backslidden.

KennethC · Jul 20, 2015

phil112 said:

Thanks for you testimony Phil as many on here and about need to hear stories like this to understand God's grace.

He never left you nor forsake you which is why you were openly welcomed back into His fold when you gave your life back to Him. Yes what you say is very true, that if we chose to walk away from Him we are making that decision to not remain in His grace during that time. I think to many are focused or taught to only see it from one side, but refuse to look at the passages that show we make decisions regarding our salvation as well by continuing/remaining in the faith or not.

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