Self defense not justified. OH really??? Well how about this:
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My bad. I'm sorry. Please accept my apology.
I thought that was addressed to me.
I often hear the idea that the 2 prophets of Rev. 11 are Elijah and Enoch, because they did not die on earth, regarding the verse about "It is appointed unto man to die once, then the judgment".
I was adding that neither shall a whole bunch of Christians die, when Jesus comes for them, since they will still be alive and waiting for Him when He gets them.
I thought that was addressed to me.
I often hear the idea that the 2 prophets of Rev. 11 are Elijah and Enoch, because they did not die on earth, regarding the verse about "It is appointed unto man to die once, then the judgment".
I was adding that neither shall a whole bunch of Christians die, when Jesus comes for them, since they will still be alive and waiting for Him when He gets them.
B
Ok, I have read them. I still believe there is a Biblical basis for a pre-trib rapture. Noah and Lot escaped this world's judgment, so will we. At the beginning of the seven years two OT prophets will come on the scene and it talks about the temple and Jerusalem, this means God will focus on the Jews once again. Because the Church won't be here anymore, they will need (Messianic) Jews who will preach the good news to them and that the final hour has come. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people it says in Daniel. It stopped right before the Church era started and will enter its last week of years when the Church is "gone" again. I'm not saying it's literally impossible for a post-trib to happen but at this moment I see it this way. If I would have to die a martyr so be it, but I don't believe we're destined for wrath.
No, I don't think you did. Or you skimmed, so quickly, you missed the salient points.
Jesus Himself speaks of the timing, the sequence of events, leading up to the end of the age. He, Himself, teaches the subject.
Read the 1st post of mine and look at the Parable #2 -the Tares and the Wheat. Read it and see.
THEN, read post #2 and #3 to see corroborative scripture to demonstrate that the rapture as taught by most, is completely OPPOSITE the Lord's teaching.
B
Also, we can see that there will be plagues and famines as there has never been before. Back in Egypt, thousands of years ago, these godless people faced almost the same plagues that are described in the book of Revelation as well. It was a punishment for Egypt, not for Israel (God's people). Likewise, the plagues and the wrath in the book of Revelation are destined for the godless people who are left behind while God's people (the Christians and converted Jews) are safe in heaven. No place on earth will be safe. The biggest earthquake ever will come. The sun will heat up the earth and things like that. I thought Jesus loved His people and that He wouldn't let them endure these plagues and wrath? That just doesn't make any sense to me. The earth will be an absolutely hell hole here on earth during the final seven years.
J, please, go re-read what I wrote in that thread. Just stick with what Jesus says. I outlined it, as short and sweet as possible, dealing with the subject matter of TIMING... the sequence of events.
When people talk about the "rapture", the thing that is of concern is timing. Does it happen before...middle... or end of the horrible time that Jesus said was coming on the whole earth.
Next, brother, all saints are called to suffer for Jesus, so you should look at suffering as an opportunity. Not something to be afraid of or run away from.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.
Heb 11:36 Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated--
Heb 11:38 of whom the world was not worthy--wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
We said we would follow Jesus to death as demonstration of our love for Him, and that has been the case for a great multitude already during the past 2000 years.
Just a couple months ago, Islamic extremists burned 60 Christians in a cage, with a torch, and showed it to the national TV.
Then a few days later, beheaded a bunch more.
I can tell by your attitude you will not be able to receive this because the natural man is unable to receive the spiritual things of God. Most people, being yet carnally minded do not search things out by the scriptures, or by the Holy Spirit. They believe what they been told by other carnally minded men as to who the 2 witnesses are, even though they are also mentioned as 2 Olive trees and 2 Candle sticks. When you come to understand these 2 feed the Oil to the 7 spirits of God, then perhaps you'll also understand that no flesh and blood man can perform this act, only God by His 2 witnesses. Any way, here is proof of who the 2 Olive trees are....
Which brings us to the Lords 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Many believe the 2 witnesses, 2 Olive trees, 2 candlesticks are 2 single individual men like Moses and Elijah. But when you understand the time of 1,260 days to be symbolic, then perhaps you’ll search it out. I will give you scriptural proof just who these 2 anointed witnesses are, if you can receive it.
Notice in Zechariah the two Olive trees feed the Oil to the two candlesticks, which in turn lighten His 7 lamps. Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
And if we back up we’ll see the bigger picture of this, and even the answer to Zechariah’s question, who these 2 truly are?
Zechariah 4:1-6 “And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.”
The angel answered Zechariahs question as to who these were, but Zechariah missed it because he asks the angel again in verse 12, and the angel once again tells him these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
And these 2 anointed ones are Gods Word and Spirit, which feed the Oil (Spirit) to the 7 lamps.
But let’s take this mystery step by step …
First notice the two olive branches feed the oil to the 7 pipes, which light the 7 lamps. (Zech 4:2)
Then notice in Zech 4:10 the angel tells Zechariah that those 7 lamps are the 7 eyes of the Lord.
Zechariah 4:10 “For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.”
But before I go any further let me say this for sure, there is no flesh and blood man, or men who is in control of, or even feeds the Oil (Holy Spirit) to the 7 eyes of the Lord.
Notice here the 7 lamps are shown as the 7 spirits of God (7 eyes of the Lord)
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Now here again we are shown the 7 eyes (same as the 7 lamps, which are the 7 spirits of God)
Zechariah 3:9 “For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.”
And again we see the angel talking about those 7 lamps (7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) whom the 2 anointed feed the Oil (Spirit) into.
Zechariah 4:10 “For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.”
And then finally we see the One stone (Precious Stone/Rock) on which those 7 eyes (7 spirits of God) would be in Revelation 5:6 “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
So you see it is the Lord's Word and Spirit (2 anointed ones) that feed the oil to lighten the 7 lamps ( 7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) And who bears witness in heaven? The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And here we see the One stone that would bear witness of Himself (Word) along with the Fathers (Spirit) who would also bear witness of Him.
John 8:18 “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” And those who are born of Him, also have this same witness dwelling in themselves. 1 John 5:10 “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: “
Jesus Christ is the true and faithful witness that dwells in all his anointed saints, and that is how the Father speaks to the world, by Christ in us, or God’s Word and Spirit in us. We see this in Isaiah 59:21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”
These are those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ in them, for the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.
Which brings us to the Lords 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Many believe the 2 witnesses, 2 Olive trees, 2 candlesticks are 2 single individual men like Moses and Elijah. But when you understand the time of 1,260 days to be symbolic, then perhaps you’ll search it out. I will give you scriptural proof just who these 2 anointed witnesses are, if you can receive it.
Notice in Zechariah the two Olive trees feed the Oil to the two candlesticks, which in turn lighten His 7 lamps. Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
And if we back up we’ll see the bigger picture of this, and even the answer to Zechariah’s question, who these 2 truly are?
Zechariah 4:1-6 “And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.”
The angel answered Zechariahs question as to who these were, but Zechariah missed it because he asks the angel again in verse 12, and the angel once again tells him these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
And these 2 anointed ones are Gods Word and Spirit, which feed the Oil (Spirit) to the 7 lamps.
But let’s take this mystery step by step …
First notice the two olive branches feed the oil to the 7 pipes, which light the 7 lamps. (Zech 4:2)
Then notice in Zech 4:10 the angel tells Zechariah that those 7 lamps are the 7 eyes of the Lord.
Zechariah 4:10 “For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.”
But before I go any further let me say this for sure, there is no flesh and blood man, or men who is in control of, or even feeds the Oil (Holy Spirit) to the 7 eyes of the Lord.
Notice here the 7 lamps are shown as the 7 spirits of God (7 eyes of the Lord)
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Now here again we are shown the 7 eyes (same as the 7 lamps, which are the 7 spirits of God)
Zechariah 3:9 “For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.”
And again we see the angel talking about those 7 lamps (7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) whom the 2 anointed feed the Oil (Spirit) into.
Zechariah 4:10 “For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.”
And then finally we see the One stone (Precious Stone/Rock) on which those 7 eyes (7 spirits of God) would be in Revelation 5:6 “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
So you see it is the Lord's Word and Spirit (2 anointed ones) that feed the oil to lighten the 7 lamps ( 7 eyes / 7 spirits of God) And who bears witness in heaven? The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And here we see the One stone that would bear witness of Himself (Word) along with the Fathers (Spirit) who would also bear witness of Him.
John 8:18 “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” And those who are born of Him, also have this same witness dwelling in themselves. 1 John 5:10 “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: “
Jesus Christ is the true and faithful witness that dwells in all his anointed saints, and that is how the Father speaks to the world, by Christ in us, or God’s Word and Spirit in us. We see this in Isaiah 59:21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”
These are those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ in them, for the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.
Geeee,
You wrote about everything, except Revelation 11. You included a lot of "domino theory", too.
This word shows up here, and hey, it shows up here, too... and well now here are some other related ideas.
You did that especially with your own "natural understanding" and inserting you own thinking about that the 2 witnesses are "spirit and word". That's not written there, but you gleaned that, somehow.
Fine.
Your ideas are contradicted by John in Revelation. He tells us that the two olive trees are these 2 prophets who show up just a few years before Jesus' 2nd coming.
John gives very excellent details about these two guys.
There is going to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Bible is very clear on this.
Pre-Trib Rapture.
versus the...
Gathering of Elect Before Christ's Second Coming.
Then there are the clues or breadcrumbs of the Pre-Trib Rapture, too.
Pre-Trib Rapture is paralleled in Genesis and Revelation.
Those who say the Lord is delaying His Coming.
Comparing the Trumpet of Blessing vs. the Trumpet of Judgment.
Knowing the Timing of Period Called "Wrath" and Realizing We are not Appointed Unto "Wrath."
However, you have to realize that the Pre-Trib is the only position where a person has the most to lose.
Those who say everything has been fulfilled already have not truly believed Revelation at face value. For anyone who is honest with themselves in reading it will see that none of the major things in Revelation have happened yet.
Mid Trib view is false because you have a population problem with the Anti-Christ killing the saints during this time.
Post Trib view is false because we are not appointed unto Wrath.
Saying there is no Rapture means you have not read the Rapture verses with an open mind.
Pre-Trib Rapture.
versus the...
Gathering of Elect Before Christ's Second Coming.
Then there are the clues or breadcrumbs of the Pre-Trib Rapture, too.
Pre-Trib Rapture is paralleled in Genesis and Revelation.
Those who say the Lord is delaying His Coming.
Comparing the Trumpet of Blessing vs. the Trumpet of Judgment.
Knowing the Timing of Period Called "Wrath" and Realizing We are not Appointed Unto "Wrath."
However, you have to realize that the Pre-Trib is the only position where a person has the most to lose.
Those who say everything has been fulfilled already have not truly believed Revelation at face value. For anyone who is honest with themselves in reading it will see that none of the major things in Revelation have happened yet.
Mid Trib view is false because you have a population problem with the Anti-Christ killing the saints during this time.
Post Trib view is false because we are not appointed unto Wrath.
Saying there is no Rapture means you have not read the Rapture verses with an open mind.