Torah Study

[Dan_473]

Yes, the ground was cursed, but sin and death and their consequences speak of everything becoming more difficult and unpleasant - including labour. It's not a stretch.

well, I can't go there with ya... I agree that if one focuses on the down side of things, it can look that way...

As for what Adam and Eve got up too. Sure, it's an inference, but it's not a speculative one. For example, Adam and Eve had to have other children for Cain to have a wife when God banished him. It's not difficult.

in my experience, if one focuses on Jesus' teaching 'consider the birds of the air' it can begin to look much differently...

 

[Dan_473]

I've already mentioned some speculations based on inferences.

I'm not seeing them... if you want to point them out, that'd be great...

As for New Testament verses that reference the Book of Genesis and sometimes add additional details, there are too many to list.

you don't have to list them all... just one to start... that relates to what we're talking about... I'd be much obliged...

But I have a link that will help you greatly. Find the chapter you want and then look at the right-most column for the relevant NT verses.

Genesis Verse by Verse - creation.com

here on the threads, I love the interaction between people... I do research on websites, too... but I can't interact there...
so if there's a particular thing... post it, plzzzzzzz

 

[Dan_473]

As I mentioned before, I believe sin and death entered Creation at the Fall. Humans would've killed animals. Some animals would've killed and have eaten animals and even humans. Some humans would've eaten animals, but not those who were true to God, because He forbade it prior to the Great Flood. They would've subsisted on plants, fruit, nuts, grains and maybe milk, cheeses, eggs etc. But no meat.

in post 187, billyd wrote "... I really don't see where he prohibited meat."

in 195, you wrote "Meat = animal death. There was no sin and death before the Fall."

so my question is,
after the fall, but before the flood,
is meat prohibited? or simply inedible...?

 

[Dan_473]

History is generally told in a linear fashion.

well, it certainly is our expectation today, isn't it?

For example, Abel existed a few generations before Jabal. But yes, the Hebrew historical narrative sometimes told a story in a linear fashion, then part way went through they go back and add more details, then continue the story (for example the Flood account of Noah). Also, the tower of Babel story is told after the dispersal of the nations, but we know from the context that particular passage in Chapter 11 happens before the events of Chapter 10. But history is still linear.

As for the conditions that are required to produce fossils, it's too complicated to address here (without derailing the thread, and I don't want that). Check out websites like: Creation Ministries International, Answers in Genesis and The Institute for Creation Research. Search using the keyword 'fossils' or something similar.

no, as I said before, I like the human interaction... you don't have to list them all at once, just one to start... blessings!

 

[Billyd]

in post 187, billyd wrote "... I really don't see where he prohibited meat."

in 195, you wrote "Meat = animal death. There was no sin and death before the Fall."

so my question is,
after the fall, but before the flood,
is meat prohibited? or simply inedible...?

My question to Tin is where did God first specifically (by His word) tell man he could not eat any type of meat.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

meat was not -prohibited- but it was never -given- to humans as food until after the flood...to me that says it was not 'legitimate' food for people at the time... in the same way God never prohibited eating dirt as food...but he never gave us dirt to eat...and so hardly anyone would consider dirt to be a legitimate food for humans...

and since there is a question about eggs being meat or not...i might as well share my thoughts...

the way i see it the cellular part of an egg is composed of animal cells...and the rest of the egg consists mainly of specific animal proteins...so from my modern point of view i see eggs in the 'animal' category of foods...

on the other hand in the bible it seems like there might be a different kind of distinction based on the term 'breath of life'...animals that breathed with lungs were said to have the 'breath of life' and were viewed as distinct from organisms such as plants and fish and insects that don't breathe with lungs... eggs do not breathe so they might not have been considered to be a form of life and therefore not part of the 'animal' category of foods...

 

[BarlyGurl]

on the other hand in the bible it seems like there might be a different kind of distinction based on the term 'breath of life'...animals that breathed with lungs were said to have the 'breath of life' and were viewed as distinct from organisms such as plants and fish and insects that don't breathe with lungs... eggs do not breathe so they might not have been considered to be a form of life and therefore not part of the 'animal' category of foods...

Eggs don't breath? They aren't LIVING? Um... WHEN does a human life begin? when it can function outside the womb independently or at conception? Same as a egg... such that the Calcium shell happens to be act as an external womb... for the developing fetus <discussing birds here not insects or reptiles>. Except for a non-fertilized egg.... which I will contend is a man-instituted tradition based in religious legalism.... because laying eggs is a natural procreative function of birds...removing the opportunity be fertilized... is an artificial means of control... without the control... most all eggs are fertile.
An egg is an embryo/fetus of a bird and birds have lungs... they breathe... and if you deprive an egg of oxygen... the fetus dies.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Eggs don't breath? They aren't LIVING? Um... WHEN does a human life begin? when it can function outside the womb independently or at conception? Same as a egg... such that the Calcium shell happens to be act as an external womb... for the developing fetus <discussing birds here not insects or reptiles>. Except for a non-fertilized egg.... which I will contend is a man-instituted tradition based in religious legalism.... because laying eggs is a natural procreative function of birds...removing the opportunity be fertilized... is an artificial means of control... without the control... most all eggs are fertile.
An egg is an embryo/fetus of a bird and birds have lungs... they breathe... and if you deprive an egg of oxygen... the fetus dies.

i am talking about active respiration through lungs...the ancient israelite culture seems to have drawn a line of distinction there...

 

[BarlyGurl]

i am talking about active respiration through lungs...the ancient israelite culture seems to have drawn a line of distinction there...

I understand what your saying... but no one was sinless since the fall... that is what I am trying to get at, eggs are meat... except for the "traditions" men invented to circumvent God's instructions...to justify the aren't sinning "as much"?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I understand what your saying... but no one was sinless since the fall... that is what I am trying to get at, eggs are meat... except for the "traditions" men invented to circumvent God's instructions...to justify the aren't sinning "as much"?

it was a distction that God seemed to use too though...like when God said he was going to destroy every creature that had the breath of life...he didn't kill all the fish...

 

[Tintin]

well, I can't go there with ya... I agree that if one focuses on the down side of things, it can look that way...

in my experience, if one focuses on Jesus' teaching 'consider the birds of the air' it can begin to look much differently...

It's not about being pessimistic. It's about understanding that the Fall was the greatest tragedy to befall all of Creation and that there were far-reaching consequences for Adam and Eve having rebelled against God.

As for the second bit. You seem to be talking in riddles. What do you mean?

 

[Tintin]

I'm not seeing them... if you want to point them out, that'd be great...

you don't have to list them all... just one to start... that relates to what we're talking about... I'd be much obliged...

here on the threads, I love the interaction between people... I do research on websites, too... but I can't interact there...
so if there's a particular thing... post it, plzzzzzzz

Seems kind of lazy, but sure. What Chapter of Genesis did you want NT verses for?

 

[Tintin]

in post 187, billyd wrote "... I really don't see where he prohibited meat."

in 195, you wrote "Meat = animal death. There was no sin and death before the Fall."

so my question is,
after the fall, but before the flood,
is meat prohibited? or simply inedible...?

God didn't give the command for mankind to eat meat, as He did for other foods. That would mean meat just wasn't given to mankind to be eaten, prior to the Great Flood.

 

[Tintin]

I understand what your saying... but no one was sinless since the fall... that is what I am trying to get at, eggs are meat... except for the "traditions" men invented to circumvent God's instructions...to justify the aren't sinning "as much"?

Okay, so eggs are meat or they're not meat. It doesn't really matter. I really don't see how eggs are legalistic. Why are you so hung up on eggs and their being meat? Are you part of an egg-free Christian denomination or something? Do you really look down upon Christians who eat eggs?

 

[Tintin]

My question to Tin is where did God first specifically (by His word) tell man he could not eat any type of meat.

God doesn't explicitly say it, but He doesn't give the command to eat meat until after the Great Flood. That would strongly suggest that meat wasn't to be eaten by God's people. Don't they teach inferences at school these days?

 

[elf3]

OK I have been reading over the posts for the last day and it seems quite a discussion about what was eaten and when did we start eating meat. Now this is only my opinion and reasoning on the subject after a bit of study and prayer for understanding.

Before the "fall" there was no death correct? So in my understanding humans were vegetarians as there was no killing. After the fall is when death comes into play. From my studies it seems God makes the first sacrifice by killing an animal to cloth them. Hmm where else does God make a sacrifice to "cloth" us when we fall from Him? So after the fall is when we see livestock being kept by man. So if livestock is now being kept by man it makes sense that after the fall man starts to eat meat. Now this, like I said, is what I see after a bit of study.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Okay, so eggs are meat or they're not meat. It doesn't really matter. I really don't see how eggs are legalistic. Why are you so hung up on eggs and their being meat? Are you part of an egg-free Christian denomination or something? Do you really look down upon Christians who eat eggs?

LOL... um... this is a TORAH STUDY... and eggs were introduced as a FOOD and represented as NOT MEAT. I am merely pointing out that eggs are meat... NOT VEGATABLE AT ALL. An animal is an animal whether it is a part of an animal (the ovum) or a fetal animal (the fertilized egg) or hatched and grown into a CHICKEN.... nowhere along the cycle did was it NOT MEAT.
I eat eggs... I have no problem with anybody eating eggs.... I do understand that there are people who have given themselves dietary regimen believing it is a biblical to be ova-lacto and I am pointing out the erroneous thinking that eggs are not meat. That is all.

You may not care... but there are people who are freakout traumatized by the idea the eggs are chicken ovums... I dunno how that happens... but it HAS!

 

[Tintin]

OK I have been reading over the posts for the last day and it seems quite a discussion about what was eaten and when did we start eating meat. Now this is only my opinion and reasoning on the subject after a bit of study and prayer for understanding.

Before the "fall" there was no death correct? So in my understanding humans were vegetarians as there was no killing. After the fall is when death comes into play. From my studies it seems God makes the first sacrifice by killing an animal to cloth them. Hmm where else does God make a sacrifice to "cloth" us when we fall from Him? So after the fall is when we see livestock being kept by man. So if livestock is now being kept by man it makes sense that after the fall man starts to eat meat. Now this, like I said, is what I see after a bit of study.

But why then, would God allow the eating of meat, following the Great Flood? There's no mention of Him allowing it prior to the Flood.

 

[BarlyGurl]

OK I have been reading over the posts for the last day and it seems quite a discussion about what was eaten and when did we start eating meat. Now this is only my opinion and reasoning on the subject after a bit of study and prayer for understanding.

Before the "fall" there was no death correct? So in my understanding humans were vegetarians as there was no killing. After the fall is when death comes into play. From my studies it seems God makes the first sacrifice by killing an animal to cloth them. Hmm where else does God make a sacrifice to "cloth" us when we fall from Him? So after the fall is when we see livestock being kept by man. So if livestock is now being kept by man it makes sense that after the fall man starts to eat meat. Now this, like I said, is what I see after a bit of study.

Do you think it is possible that God killed the animals for skin coats to demonstrate to A&E the idea of offering sacrifices... and that this might have included eating a portion of the meat after it was offered to the lord?

 

[Tintin]

LOL... um... this is a TORAH STUDY... and eggs were introduced as a FOOD and represented as NOT MEAT. I am merely pointing out that eggs are meat... NOT VEGATABLE AT ALL. An animal is an animal whether it is a part of an animal (the ovum) or a fetal animal (the fertilized egg) or hatched and grown into a CHICKEN.... nowhere along the cycle did was it NOT MEAT.
I eat eggs... I have no problem with anybody eating eggs.... I do understand that there are people who have given themselves dietary regimen believing it is a biblical to be ova-lacto and I am pointing out the erroneous thinking that eggs are not meat. That is all.

You may not care... but there are people who are freakout traumatized by the idea the eggs are chicken ovums... I dunno how that happens... but it HAS!

Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for explaining your line of thinking. As for people being traumatized by the ideas that eggs are chicken ovums, that doesn't say much about people. There are people who are traumatized by the idea of eating plants, because that's killing life or some such bollocks. I'm sorry I got frustrated with you earlier.