If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[WoundedWarrior]

Are you going to sin again?

I don't even know what I'm going to eat tonight.

To me, the question is as rhetorical as: "Are you going to breathe again?"

My flesh may sin, but my spirit will not.

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus said concerning the Pharisees...they encompass land and sea to make one (disciple) and in doing so make them two fold the child of hell....not only do they have to get over the fact they are lost and need Jesus they also have to get over the false religious dogma that they are steeped in and stuck in......such is the case with all who teach a sinless perfectionism and religiously dogmatic works for salvation...double blind!

You are quoting a verse I just used to describe many OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. See, the man of God who wants to walk in holiness and righteousness is not going to be a child of hell and make recruits that are 2 fold the child of hell. That is the person who believes they can sin and still be saved.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No. That would be like a father allowing his son to go and steal, sleep around with a bunch of girls, and bully other kids and still be accepted by his father (depsite such evils). For if a father were to allow a child to do evil, then he would be condoing of their son's evil. It is no different with God and his children. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

I really don't know of ANY parent (father or mother) that have ALLOWED their child to live in disobedience. (If one does they do not love their child.) But regardless of how a child has been raised they still have their freedom of choice and can choose to be disobedient . . . going against what they have been taught. I have one such child, although an adult now, and hey, guess what - she is still my child!!! Have I stopped loving her? NEVER Am I grieved? YES Sort of reminds me of Romans 8:38,39 . . . that is the love of a parent and a child.

My point being . . . I will always love her . . . She will always be my child. . . .I figure God's heart for HIS children is waaaayyyy bigger than mine!

 

[WoundedWarrior]

My love is caring for people's souls and not wanting them to approve of evil. For if you had a heated conversation with a loved one that you wanted them to stop drinking or they were going to end up killing themselves and those around them (One could think you were being mean or uncaring with them). But that is not the case at all. The only way you would be mean towards them is if you said bad things about them that were not true and you dragged them down instead of giving them hope. In other words, you are seeing what you want to see because you are trying to protect a belief (that cannot be found in the Scriptures).

Are we now moving to the "I know you are but what am I" tactic?

I cannot help you understand the scriptures, man -- we've told you what we believe, we've told you why we believe it, we've cited scriptures. I've spent my entire life around Christians and have been "aware" of my commitment to the faith for about 18-19 years now. I even attended a Christian university -- but this is the first I have heard of this "Sinless Perfection" debate. And no, in the past few days, the Holy Spirit has not convicted me to change my understanding on this.

I encourage you to join a local Bible study.. preferably one administered by a local Church.

 

[BradC]

No dear sir. Your doctrine leads to immorality and sin and it does not lead to holiness. Saying that your future and present sin is automatically forgiven gives people the green light so sin at some point in their life with the thinking they are saved (Which is a license to sin). This would mean God would be condoning or approving of your evil if you did sin while under grace thinking you were saved. It's an evil doctrine of devils. Life teaches us that you cannot do evil and have your parents approve of your evil (or they will be just as guilty of the same crimes that you commit).

If you do not understand what Christ did on the cross in relationship to sin then you are lost in your way. BenFTW has laid it out for you in such a clear and concise manner and you have balked at the thought of it. His doctrine is the doctrine of Jesus Christ and him crucified, the same doctrine that we have been given and made a partaker of through grace. This doctrine has removed sin from our record and laid the righteousness of Christ to our accounted freely through mercy and grace. Mercy that took away what we deserved and grace giving us what we don't deserve. We were deserving of the death that Christ died for us and as us and we have been set free from the consequences and wages of our sin. This is what the finished work is all about and somehow you have been hindered from this in your understanding.

Jason you are not standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. Your freedom from sin is rooted in your own strength to be moral instead of having a liberty rooted in the cross that has made us free. If we sin we have an advocate, Christ our righteousness, who represents us to the Father who will not and can not impute sin to us. You have somehow come to the conclusion that you can only remain clean if you confess and repent of your sin, but we are cleansed by the blood through faith in what Christ did when he put away our sin. We reckon on that by faith as being dead to sin and alive unto God. We are free from sin in that we can not be condemned for our sin because paid the wages of it through his own death. That gives us a liberty to rejoice in the grace of God and when we fail or fall short we are standing in grace and God is able to make us stand.

It is through him that we have strength in our weakness and his strength is made perfect in our weakness. You will not understand this, but as believers we should not be afraid of sin or failure because of Christ, the cross and his shed blood. Jason you are in bondage to a sin nature that Christ has crucified. You are afraid to sin and forfeit your salvation. It has probably happened in the past but you are under the wrong doctrine and understanding about our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

You are quoting a verse I just used to describe many OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. See, the man of God who wants to walk in holiness and righteousness is not going to be a child of hell and make recruits that are 2 fold the child of hell. That is the person who believes they can sin and still be saved.

That is nothing more than a straw man moronic baseless argument...There is proof in our stance...the hyper religious Pharisees pushed their sinless working for salvation dogma....just like you do!

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I really don't know of ANY parent (father or mother) that have ALLOWED their child to live in disobedience. (If one does they do not love their child.) But regardless of how a child has been raised they still have their freedom of choice and can choose to be disobedient . . . going against what they have been taught. I have one such child, although an adult now, and hey, guess what - she is still my child!!! Have I stopped loving her? NEVER Am I grieved? YES Sort of reminds me of Romans 8:38,39 . . . that is the love of a parent and a child.

My point being . . . I will always love her . . . She will always be my child. . . .I figure God's heart for HIS children is waaaayyyy bigger than mine!

Kinda makes one wonder if Jason is a father.

 

[Budman]

Have you ever read the story of the prodigal son?

Check it out: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+15:11-32&version=NIV

Did you know that we who are saved have a New Spirit while also retaining these old fleshy bodies?
If so, did you know that our flesh can still sin -- even while we have this new Spirit within us?
Can you imagine what it would be like -- to live with two (or more) consciousnesses?

Ask Jason if he would disown and cast his own child out is his child continued to disobey him.

If so, his love is only based on what they do, and not on who they are.

Yet he claims that is what God is like - that is how God treats His children. He only loves us when we obey, but when we don't, we are cast out and lost.

 

[Budman]

Kinda makes one wonder if Jason is a father.

I was just thinking the same thing! Which is why I just posted what I did!


Ironic, huh?

 

[dcontroversal]

Ask Jason if he would disown and cast his own child out is his child continued to disobey him.

If so, his love is only based on what they do, and not on who they are.

Yet he claims that is what God is like - that is how God treats His children. He only loves us when we obey, but when we don't, we are cast out and lost.

What is funny is how he is always using (REAL WORLD EXAMPLES) to try and paint his theology into a MONET or a Picasso......not realizing that a son is a son by birth and that cannot EVER CHANGE...no matter how much a child will disappoint and or anger a father they will never change and cannot change the fact that they are a son by birth....their theology constantly contradicts itself!

 

[Budman]

I really don't know of ANY parent (father or mother) that have ALLOWED their child to live in disobedience. (If one does they do not love their child.) But regardless of how a child has been raised they still have their freedom of choice and can choose to be disobedient . . . going against what they have been taught. I have one such child, although an adult now, and hey, guess what - she is still my child!!! Have I stopped loving her? NEVER Am I grieved? YES Sort of reminds me of Romans 8:38,39 . . . that is the love of a parent and a child.

My point being . . . I will always love her . . . She will always be my child. . . .I figure God's heart for HIS children is waaaayyyy bigger than mine!

This is awesome! I was typing my post about the relationship between parents and children based on the love for who they are, not on what they've done (or do). Went back, and saw your post. That's three of us so far that God put the thought in our minds.

Really cool!

 

[notuptome]

Thanks but no thanks. There is no goodness in the OSAS version of God's grace for it allows for sin and evil. God is Holy and just. He cannot condone or allow anyone to do evil or to get away with sin. You are abusing the grace of God if you think it covers willful rebellion or unrepenant serious sin done in the present moment. To me, such a version of grace is pure evil. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that is born of God does righteousness (1 John 2:29).

This is an incredibly vile example of those who despise Gods grace. You endeavor to manipulate God making God vindictive by describing His grace as nothing.

Jesus Christ left the glories of heaven to suffer and die on a Roman cross to redeem your soul. Not because you deserved it but because God loved you with a love far greater than your wretched person could ever aspire to imagine.

You want to teach that those whom God has paid so high a price to redeem He would then squash like a bug just because they stumbled and sinned.

I am aghast at your lack of knowledge of the Holy One.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

I don't even know what I'm going to eat tonight.

To me, the question is as rhetorical as: "Are you going to breathe again?"

My flesh may sin, but my spirit will not.

No, if you sin, you also sin in the spirit and will die spiritrually for that sin. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day God warned them that they would die if they ate of the wrong tree. Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. Also, Ezekiel says,

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezekiel 18:24).

Also, there are the widows who have cast off their first faith. For there are two sets of passages that make this clear that you can be saved and then forfeit your salvation willingly of your own choice.

1 Timothy 6:5-7
"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless."

Did you catch that? Here above we see a contrast between the widow that is serving God and the widow who is not. For it is saying that the widow who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. Meaning she is spiritually dead while she is still living physically if she is living in pleasure. Does this mean that OSAS is true unless your a widow who lives in pleasure? I don't think so. The Scriptures say that God is not a respector of persons.

Now, on to our second passage.

1 Timothy 6:11-15
"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan."

Did you see what it said? In context of the previious verses, it says that we are to refuse in providing financially to young believing widows. Why? Well, if we were to give the younger (believing) widows money they will then begin to wax wanton against Christ (because they are trusting in that money) and they will marry again for the wrong reasons and have damnation casting off their first faith. It then says, some have already turned aside after Satan. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers cannot turn aside unto Satan. They are already in Satan's grip and need to be born again spiritually into the Kingdom of God. I cannot depart (turn aside or away from) Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. Only believers can turn aside after Satan.

Also, these widows are said to have cast off their first faith. You can't cast off something that you don't have. I can't cast off a ball in your hand unless you possess the ball. You have to be in possession of something in order to cast that thing off.

 

[KennethC]

2 Peter 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; and are accursed children:

 

[WoundedWarrior]

No, if you sin, you also sin in the spirit and will die spiritrually for that sin. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day God warned them that they would die if they ate of the wrong tree. Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. Also, Ezekiel says,

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezekiel 18:24).

Also, there are the widows who have cast off their first faith. For there are two sets of passages that make this clear.

1 Timothy 6:5-7
"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless."

Did you catch that? Here above we see a contrast between the widow that is serving God and the widow who is not. For it is saying that the widow who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. Meaning she is spiritually dead while she is still living physically if she is living in pleasure. Does this mean that OSAS is true unless your a widow who lives in pleasure? I don't think so. The Scriptures say that God is not a respector of persons.

Now, on to our second passage.

1 Timothy 6:11-15
"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan."

Did you see what it said? In context of the previious verses, it says that we are to refuse in providing financially to young believing widows. Why? Well, if we were to give the younger (believing) widows money they will then begin to wax wanton against Christ (because they are trusting in that money) and they will marry again for the wrong reasons and have damnation casting off their first faith. It then says, some have already turned aside after Satan. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers cannot turn aside unto Satan. They are already in Satan's grip and need to be born again spiritually into the Kingdom of God. I cannot depart (turn aside or away from) Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. Only believers can turn aside after Satan.

Also, these widows are said to have cast off their first faith. You can't cast off something that you don't have. If can't cast off a ball in your hand unless you possess the ball. You have to be in possession of something in order to cast that thing off.

Want to know another awesome thing about Salvation?

We don't need a doctorate degree in biblical interpretation in order to accept it.

 

[Budman]

You know, that book I posted addresses most of the Scriptures Jason (and Kenneth) continually use to justify their false belief.


They won't read it, though.

 

[Jason0047]

Want to know another awesome thing about Salvation?

We don't need a doctorate degree in biblical interpretation in order to accept it.

I don't have one (Nor am I a big fan of Bible College, either). But many who are in the OSAS camp do have fancy degree and have went to Bible College, though. It has only been 1 minute since your reply to my post. That is definitely not enough time to actually look at the verses and points I made in Scripture. Please go back re-read carefully.

 

[Jason0047]

You know, that book I posted addresses most of the Scriptures Jason (and Kenneth) continually use to justify their false belief.


They won't read it, though.

I have posted two verses in Scripture so far that they use wrongfully. I read the third verse and already have verses in mind that refute their false interpretation on it. So you would be accusing me falsely because I am reading thru it (at a very slow pace so as to address their wrong points in Scripture).

 

[WoundedWarrior]

You know, that book I posted addresses most of the Scriptures Jason (and Kenneth) continually use to justify their false belief.


They won't read it, though.

Was thinking the same thing about this link I shared with Jason today: Do Christians Sin?

It's strange, because it seems that if they felt so strongly about this issue - that they would want to read what this person has written - 'cause that individual sure spent a lot of time considering every angle that Jason and Ken have presented.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

It has only been 1 minute since your reply to my post. That is definitely not enough time to actually look at the verses and points I made in Scripture. Please go back re-read carefully.

-or-

I don't have one (Nor am I a big fan of Bible College, either). But many who are in the OSAS camp do have fancy degree and have went to Bible College, though. It has only been 1 minute since your reply to my post. That is definitely not enough time to actually look at the verses and points I made in Scripture. Please go back re-read carefully.

Once again, you missed the point of what I said.

Get off your high-horse, man -- I'm not going to entertain your "Sinless Perfection" debate any further, unless you have something to add to this source: Do Christians Sin?