If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.
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You are quoting a verse I just used to describe many OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. See, the man of God who wants to walk in holiness and righteousness is not going to be a child of hell and make recruits that are 2 fold the child of hell. That is the person who believes they can sin and still be saved.
I really don't know of ANY parent (father or mother) that have ALLOWED their child to live in disobedience. (If one does they do not love their child.) But regardless of how a child has been raised they still have their freedom of choice and can choose to be disobedient . . . going against what they have been taught. I have one such child, although an adult now, and hey, guess what - she is still my child!!! Have I stopped loving her? NEVER Am I grieved? YES Sort of reminds me of Romans 8:38,39 . . . that is the love of a parent and a child.
My point being . . . I will always love her . . . She will always be my child. . . .I figure God's heart for HIS children is waaaayyyy bigger than mine!
My point being . . . I will always love her . . . She will always be my child. . . .I figure God's heart for HIS children is waaaayyyy bigger than mine!
W
Are we now moving to the "I know you are but what am I" tactic?
I cannot help you understand the scriptures, man -- we've told you what we believe, we've told you why we believe it, we've cited scriptures. I've spent my entire life around Christians and have been "aware" of my commitment to the faith for about 18-19 years now. I even attended a Christian university -- but this is the first I have heard of this "Sinless Perfection" debate. And no, in the past few days, the Holy Spirit has not convicted me to change my understanding on this.
I encourage you to join a local Bible study.. preferably one administered by a local Church.
I cannot help you understand the scriptures, man -- we've told you what we believe, we've told you why we believe it, we've cited scriptures. I've spent my entire life around Christians and have been "aware" of my commitment to the faith for about 18-19 years now. I even attended a Christian university -- but this is the first I have heard of this "Sinless Perfection" debate. And no, in the past few days, the Holy Spirit has not convicted me to change my understanding on this.
I encourage you to join a local Bible study.. preferably one administered by a local Church.
B
If you do not understand what Christ did on the cross in relationship to sin then you are lost in your way. BenFTW has laid it out for you in such a clear and concise manner and you have balked at the thought of it. His doctrine is the doctrine of Jesus Christ and him crucified, the same doctrine that we have been given and made a partaker of through grace. This doctrine has removed sin from our record and laid the righteousness of Christ to our accounted freely through mercy and grace. Mercy that took away what we deserved and grace giving us what we don't deserve. We were deserving of the death that Christ died for us and as us and we have been set free from the consequences and wages of our sin. This is what the finished work is all about and somehow you have been hindered from this in your understanding.
Jason you are not standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. Your freedom from sin is rooted in your own strength to be moral instead of having a liberty rooted in the cross that has made us free. If we sin we have an advocate, Christ our righteousness, who represents us to the Father who will not and can not impute sin to us. You have somehow come to the conclusion that you can only remain clean if you confess and repent of your sin, but we are cleansed by the blood through faith in what Christ did when he put away our sin. We reckon on that by faith as being dead to sin and alive unto God. We are free from sin in that we can not be condemned for our sin because paid the wages of it through his own death. That gives us a liberty to rejoice in the grace of God and when we fail or fall short we are standing in grace and God is able to make us stand.
It is through him that we have strength in our weakness and his strength is made perfect in our weakness. You will not understand this, but as believers we should not be afraid of sin or failure because of Christ, the cross and his shed blood. Jason you are in bondage to a sin nature that Christ has crucified. You are afraid to sin and forfeit your salvation. It has probably happened in the past but you are under the wrong doctrine and understanding about our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jason you are not standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. Your freedom from sin is rooted in your own strength to be moral instead of having a liberty rooted in the cross that has made us free. If we sin we have an advocate, Christ our righteousness, who represents us to the Father who will not and can not impute sin to us. You have somehow come to the conclusion that you can only remain clean if you confess and repent of your sin, but we are cleansed by the blood through faith in what Christ did when he put away our sin. We reckon on that by faith as being dead to sin and alive unto God. We are free from sin in that we can not be condemned for our sin because paid the wages of it through his own death. That gives us a liberty to rejoice in the grace of God and when we fail or fall short we are standing in grace and God is able to make us stand.
It is through him that we have strength in our weakness and his strength is made perfect in our weakness. You will not understand this, but as believers we should not be afraid of sin or failure because of Christ, the cross and his shed blood. Jason you are in bondage to a sin nature that Christ has crucified. You are afraid to sin and forfeit your salvation. It has probably happened in the past but you are under the wrong doctrine and understanding about our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ask Jason if he would disown and cast his own child out is his child continued to disobey him.
If so, his love is only based on what they do, and not on who they are.
Yet he claims that is what God is like - that is how God treats His children. He only loves us when we obey, but when we don't, we are cast out and lost.
What is funny is how he is always using (REAL WORLD EXAMPLES) to try and paint his theology into a MONET or a Picasso......not realizing that a son is a son by birth and that cannot EVER CHANGE...no matter how much a child will disappoint and or anger a father they will never change and cannot change the fact that they are a son by birth....their theology constantly contradicts itself!
This is an incredibly vile example of those who despise Gods grace. You endeavor to manipulate God making God vindictive by describing His grace as nothing.
Jesus Christ left the glories of heaven to suffer and die on a Roman cross to redeem your soul. Not because you deserved it but because God loved you with a love far greater than your wretched person could ever aspire to imagine.
You want to teach that those whom God has paid so high a price to redeem He would then squash like a bug just because they stumbled and sinned.
I am aghast at your lack of knowledge of the Holy One.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus Christ left the glories of heaven to suffer and die on a Roman cross to redeem your soul. Not because you deserved it but because God loved you with a love far greater than your wretched person could ever aspire to imagine.
You want to teach that those whom God has paid so high a price to redeem He would then squash like a bug just because they stumbled and sinned.
I am aghast at your lack of knowledge of the Holy One.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No, if you sin, you also sin in the spirit and will die spiritrually for that sin. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day God warned them that they would die if they ate of the wrong tree. Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. Also, Ezekiel says,
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezekiel 18:24).
Also, there are the widows who have cast off their first faith. For there are two sets of passages that make this clear that you can be saved and then forfeit your salvation willingly of your own choice.
1 Timothy 6:5-7
"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless."
Did you catch that? Here above we see a contrast between the widow that is serving God and the widow who is not. For it is saying that the widow who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. Meaning she is spiritually dead while she is still living physically if she is living in pleasure. Does this mean that OSAS is true unless your a widow who lives in pleasure? I don't think so. The Scriptures say that God is not a respector of persons.
Now, on to our second passage.
1 Timothy 6:11-15
"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan."
Did you see what it said? In context of the previious verses, it says that we are to refuse in providing financially to young believing widows. Why? Well, if we were to give the younger (believing) widows money they will then begin to wax wanton against Christ (because they are trusting in that money) and they will marry again for the wrong reasons and have damnation casting off their first faith. It then says, some have already turned aside after Satan. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers cannot turn aside unto Satan. They are already in Satan's grip and need to be born again spiritually into the Kingdom of God. I cannot depart (turn aside or away from) Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. Only believers can turn aside after Satan.
Also, these widows are said to have cast off their first faith. You can't cast off something that you don't have. I can't cast off a ball in your hand unless you possess the ball. You have to be in possession of something in order to cast that thing off.
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezekiel 18:24).
Also, there are the widows who have cast off their first faith. For there are two sets of passages that make this clear that you can be saved and then forfeit your salvation willingly of your own choice.
1 Timothy 6:5-7
"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless."
Did you catch that? Here above we see a contrast between the widow that is serving God and the widow who is not. For it is saying that the widow who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. Meaning she is spiritually dead while she is still living physically if she is living in pleasure. Does this mean that OSAS is true unless your a widow who lives in pleasure? I don't think so. The Scriptures say that God is not a respector of persons.
Now, on to our second passage.
1 Timothy 6:11-15
"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan."
Did you see what it said? In context of the previious verses, it says that we are to refuse in providing financially to young believing widows. Why? Well, if we were to give the younger (believing) widows money they will then begin to wax wanton against Christ (because they are trusting in that money) and they will marry again for the wrong reasons and have damnation casting off their first faith. It then says, some have already turned aside after Satan. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers cannot turn aside unto Satan. They are already in Satan's grip and need to be born again spiritually into the Kingdom of God. I cannot depart (turn aside or away from) Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. Only believers can turn aside after Satan.
Also, these widows are said to have cast off their first faith. You can't cast off something that you don't have. I can't cast off a ball in your hand unless you possess the ball. You have to be in possession of something in order to cast that thing off.
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I don't have one (Nor am I a big fan of Bible College, either). But many who are in the OSAS camp do have fancy degree and have went to Bible College, though. It has only been 1 minute since your reply to my post. That is definitely not enough time to actually look at the verses and points I made in Scripture. Please go back re-read carefully.
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I have posted two verses in Scripture so far that they use wrongfully. I read the third verse and already have verses in mind that refute their false interpretation on it. So you would be accusing me falsely because I am reading thru it (at a very slow pace so as to address their wrong points in Scripture).
W
Was thinking the same thing about this link I shared with Jason today: Do Christians Sin?
It's strange, because it seems that if they felt so strongly about this issue - that they would want to read what this person has written - 'cause that individual sure spent a lot of time considering every angle that Jason and Ken have presented.
It's strange, because it seems that if they felt so strongly about this issue - that they would want to read what this person has written - 'cause that individual sure spent a lot of time considering every angle that Jason and Ken have presented.
W
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Once again, you missed the point of what I said.
Get off your high-horse, man -- I'm not going to entertain your "Sinless Perfection" debate any further, unless you have something to add to this source: Do Christians Sin?
Once again, you missed the point of what I said.
Get off your high-horse, man -- I'm not going to entertain your "Sinless Perfection" debate any further, unless you have something to add to this source: Do Christians Sin?