Are We Really Predestined?

[hind_let_loose]

I've been hearing a lot this past week about being chosen by God, for those of us who lack confidence and self-worth it's pretty amazing to think that He thinks us special enough to have singled us out for salvation, above others we see as somehow superior, or better than ourselves.

Personally I don't think I can believe we are chosen, if it were so that would mean that the unsaved were always predestined for Hell...now the God I know would hardly do that - would He? If God has pre-chosen some and not others where is the choice in that? That isn't free will is it! Also what would be the point in reaching out to the unsaved if ultimately the outcome has already been decided? Despite my misgivings though it does seem like God is speaking to me through what I'm hearing and seeing and that he would seem to be saying I have been chosen..

I'd be interested to gauge others' views on this important predestination topic because a lot gets talked about on the OSAS topic yet this one seems to be a neglected topic.

Predestination is the act of God choosing who will be saved and, through His work, ultimately saving all of them. Meanwhile, none of the people He didn't choose will be saved.

This isn't a discouraging doctrine. It is a necessary doctrine, and it is a comforting doctrine when combined with everything else taught in Scripture.

So, here are the key points:

1. Sin and our inability to come to Christ by our own free will

First, we are all sinners and incapable of coming to Christ by our own free will. We're just not able to turn from sin to Christ on our own. Period. So, if left to our free will, we're all on our way to hell. See especially the red font below:

--Jeremiah 13:26, "Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard change his spots? Neither can you who do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

--John 6:44a, "No man can come to me, unless the Father which sent me draw him."

--1 Corinthians 12:3b, "no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

2. If we cannot come on our own, then God has to bring us.

Second, if we cannot come to Christ by our own free will because we are sinners, then God is the one that has to bring us. This is all over the Bible, of course, but the green font in the verses quote above show this, too. God has to bring us to Christ. And when we come to Him, it wasn't because of what we did. It was because of what He did. Hence, we must be "born again." We didn't choose to be born the first time, and we didn't choose the second time, either. God is the author of life -- both our natural life and our spiritual life.

3. God does not bring everyone to Christ.


This is the hard part for many people to accept. They want to say that God is trying to save everyone, but a lot of people just won't agree to it. So, His Spirit is operating on everyone, doing His best to save them without violating their free will. If this is all God did to save us, then no one would be saved since our free will doesn't do good on its own. But here's what Scripture has to say about His passing over some people:

--John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Here, Jesus explicitly excludes many people in his prayer. He is only praying for the people the Father has given him -- and that is not everyone.

--Matthew 11:25-27, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomseover the Son will reveal him."

In this passage (see the red), Jesus thanks the Father for hiding the knowledge of Christ and the truth from many people, and only revealing these things unto some others (i.e., "babes"). In other words, there is a part of the world from which God is hiding the things of salvation -- and Jesus is thanking Him for doing it this way. Notice that no man can know God unless He is one of the people to whom the Father and the Son reveal Him (see the green), and this passage explicitly says that this isn't everyone. So God is not bringing everyone to Christ.

This means that God chooses some people to be saved, and He excludes others from this gift.

Now, the question is, why is this just?

Well, we did have free will at one point -- in the Garden of Eden. But we sinned in Adam. So, now, humans are sinners by nature and deserve to be condemned by God. God does not owe us a way of salvation any more than God owes fallen angels a way of salvation. (And it is interesting to note that God does not offer a way of salvation to fallen angels, but nobody complains about that -- probably because we're not fallen angels.)

In other words, since God doesn't owe any of us mercy, He doesn't have to save everyone. In fact, He doesn't have to save anyone. And the real mystery is that He saves anyone at all.

Finally, Christ's atonement is sufficient to save anyone who comes to him -- even if every person on earth converted. And God promises salvation to anyone who comes to Christ. So this doctrine should not be a source of discouragement to anyone. We can honestly call everyone to Christ, and God will -- He promises -- save any who come to Him. It is confusion about the doctrine that causes problems at this point. The doctrine itself is consistent with a universal offer of the Gospel.

 

[crossnote]

Actually, he had plenty of choices. He could have skipped creation all together. He could have made Man incapable of sinning. He could have wiped all of us out in the flood. He could have done many things. He chose this.

I took the question "Did Jesus have free will" to be referring to the incarnate Son of God not the preincarnate Son. So as Jesus, he did not have free will as He binded himself (or bound) to the Father's will. To have broken that covenant would have broken the Father's Will as well as His own while preincarnate and thus had sinned.

 

[crossnote]

How does that become a question? I'm sure he moved equally on Pharaoh and Peter -- just in different ways.

Typical tecnical Lynn...sigh. Moving moreso in a salvific manner. Sorry for the imprecision but I assumed it was inherent in my statement.

 

[atwhatcost]

The Apostle Paul heard God's Voice. He also talked with God. In I Corinthians, Paul says, "In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." (He was saying it was his opinion. just like Blain is). And when did Paul ever have a Bible to confirm everything? He could not have because it was being written at the time. God will speak whichever way He likes. Even if it's through a talking donkey... or even through me.

View attachment 131673

He was a Pharisee. He knew his Bible well. He saw Jesus in it too.

 

[crossnote]

The Apostle Paul heard God's Voice. He also talked with God. In I Corinthians, Paul says, "In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." (He was saying it was his opinion. just like Blain is). And when did Paul ever have a Bible to confirm everything? He could not have because it was being written at the time. God will speak whichever way He likes. Even if it's through a talking donkey... or even through me.

View attachment 131673

Blain said God spoke to me yesterday.
When Paul was speaking from opinion, he said so.
Paul's Scripture was the OT.plus as an Apostle, which you and Blain and myself aren't, he received direct revelation from God.
Sorry, if that pops any bubbles.

 

[Budman]

I've been hearing a lot this past week about being chosen by God, for those of us who lack confidence and self-worth it's pretty amazing to think that He thinks us special enough to have singled us out for salvation, above others we see as somehow superior, or better than ourselves.

Personally I don't think I can believe we are chosen, if it were so that would mean that the unsaved were always predestined for Hell...now the God I know would hardly do that - would He? If God has pre-chosen some and not others where is the choice in that? That isn't free will is it! Also what would be the point in reaching out to the unsaved if ultimately the outcome has already been decided? Despite my misgivings though it does seem like God is speaking to me through what I'm hearing and seeing and that he would seem to be saying I have been chosen..

I'd be interested to gauge others' views on this important predestination topic because a lot gets talked about on the OSAS topic yet this one seems to be a neglected topic.

One of the best books I have ever read on the subject is called, Predestined for hell? NO! by John R. Rice. If you can get your hands on a copy, I think you'll love it.

 

[Blain]

Blain said God spoke to me yesterday.
When Paul was speaking from opinion, he said so.
Paul's Scripture was the OT.plus as an Apostle, which you and Blain and myself aren't, he received direct revelation from God.
Sorry, if that pops any bubbles.

actually I said I was talking with him I didnt say he spoke to me but he does speak to me sometimes. I dont know why God speaks to me and not to others maybe its because im willing to listen but I dont receive divine revelations him and I are just very close and I know his voice just as Jesus said my sheep know my voice

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote you completely misunderstood what I was saying. When I am praying to God I am not simply asking him for things or doing a father who art in heaven I am talking to him as if we are face to face like one would a cherished friend or a beloved father I pour my heart out to him I speak with him about all things and sometimes I hear him speak back.

I never once said that scripture is not authority and that we should close our bibles and you should know me better than that by now what I did say is scripture alone isnt enough because if we dont know who God is or what his nature is than we will be blind as to what the scriptures say.

Sorry, this was confusing..."I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday."
Why did you introduce it unless you meant 'and while talking to him here is what He told me".
Maybe I read more into it than I should have...and obtw, yes prayer is more than an Our Father.

 

[crossnote]

actually I said I was talking with him I didnt say he spoke to me but he does speak to me sometimes. I dont know why God speaks to me and not to others maybe its because im willing to listen but I dont receive divine revelations him and I are just very close and I know his voice just as Jesus said my sheep know my voice

Sorry. My error in mis quoting you.

 

[Blain]

Sorry, this was confusing..."I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday."
Why did you introduce it unless you meant 'and while talking to him here is what He told me".
Maybe I read more into it than I should have...and obtw, yes prayer is more than an Our Father.

I said what I did because when I think of prayer I think of talking to him and so I call my prayer time my talking time with him, if he spoke to me then I would have said so but a lot of times the things he says is for me specifically he has never once spoken to me telling me to tell someone something

 

[Angela53510]

First, there is no where in the Bible that it says people are predestined to hell. At Seminary we had some Reformed students, (Baptist and real Reformed!) I challenged them one day to show me in the Bible where it said God predestines some to hell. They couldn't come up with a single verse! But they still believed because of the Calvinist logic that if some are predestined to be saved, then the rest must be predestined to hell. I would challenge anyone to find a verse that says God predestines people to hell.

So that does leave the problem of what is God's choice for those who go to hell?

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:3-4

So God's heart is that everyone will be saved. And certainly, we are to preach the gospel to everyone, because we have no idea who will be saved. And sometimes our words are breaking up fallow ground, planting seeds, or watering or maybe part of the harvest, according to the working of the Holy Spirit.

But God DOES know who will be saved. He does know who is predestined. God is above and beyond time, as someone already said! That means he KNOWS who will be saved. And I do believe that God is the one who reveals himself to us, and saves us. We are predestined, according to the Bible!

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And those whom he [/FONT]predestined[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] he also called, and those whom he called he also [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]justified, and those whom he justified he also [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]glorified." Romans 8:28-30[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]he predestined us [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]for [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]according to the purpose of his will," Eph. 1:5[/FONT]


"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will," Eph. 1:11

Now I have heard preaching (not a pastor of mine!) in a class and the preacher said that these verses, like the OT were actually speaking to US as a group. So the group of us are predestined to salvation.

Now I don't see that in the text. Yes, we are the community of God. But God calls us as individuals, and then we become adopted into his family. But the experience of salvation is God meeting us, and calling us, and justifying us. Anything else undermines the sovereignty of God.

So of course it follows if it is God that calls us, then we cannot lose our salvation. And perhaps those who just mentally assent to the gospel, who are not truly saved by God, are the ones that fall away, as the Bible says.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

So I am a single predestination person, which ends up acknowledging the calling, election and predestination of believers, without reading what into the text what is not there, and that is predestination to hell.

 

[crossnote]

I'll go with Spurgeon on this one...

"The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that “it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”

I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Predestination is the act of God choosing who will be saved and, through His work, ultimately saving all of them. Meanwhile, none of the people He didn't choose will be saved.

Hogwash.

This isn't a discouraging doctrine. It is a necessary doctrine, and it is a comforting doctrine when combined with everything else taught in Scripture.

It's a doctrine of devils or demons, if you prefer.

So, here are the key points:

1. Sin and our inability to come to Christ by our own free will

First, we are all sinners and incapable of coming to Christ by our own free will. We're just not able to turn from sin to Christ on our own. Period. So, if left to our free will, we're all on our way to hell. See especially the red font below:

--Jeremiah 13:26, "Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard change his spots? Neither can you who do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

--John 6:44a, "No man can come to me, unless the Father which sent me draw him."

--1 Corinthians 12:3b, "no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Fine.

I doubt that anybody questions that God is the One Who reaches out to us, but He reaches out to everybody initially. In the old world and prior to the flood, before destruction came, God strove with all of mankind for another 120 years by His Spirit before sending judgment:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)

Noah was a preacher of righteousness, right?

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (II Peter 2:5)

Who do you suppose Noah was preaching righteousness to? Only his family members?

God's Spirit strives with all...even those who are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." (Acts 7:51)

How did these Jews to whom Stephen was speaking and their forefathers "resist the Holy Ghost"? What was the Holy Ghost attempting to get them to do if not to repent and embrace Christ? God's not willing that any should perish and any means any and Jesus plainly distinguished between His will and the wills of those who rejected Him:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

"How often would I have gathered thy children together..."

There is Jesus' will for the people of Jerusalem as He recounted to them how He had been striving with them throughout their history even in relation to the prophets whom He had sent unto them.

"...and ye would not!"

There is the free will rejection of those who refused to submit themselves to Christ. God strives with all via His Spirit and man has the free will choice to make in relation to either submitting themselves to such strivings or in relation to resisting such strivings. Your predestinational beliefs are heresy.

2. If we cannot come on our own, then God has to bring us.

Second, if we cannot come to Christ by our own free will because we are sinners, then God is the one that has to bring us. This is all over the Bible,, of course, but the green font in the verses quote above show this, too. God has to bring us to Christ. And when we come to Him, it wasn't because of what we did. It was because of what He did. Hence, we must be "born again." We didn't choose to be born the first time, and we didn't choose the second time, either. God is the author of life -- both our natural life and our spiritual life.

More hogwash.

God's covenant with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture and what you're describing is a shotgun wedding where the bride is chosen without consent. Worse still, the bride was apparently "raped" by God in that He planted His "seed" within her, again, without her consent.

3. God does not bring everyone to Christ.

This is the hard part for many people to accept. They want to say that God is trying to save everyone, but a lot of people just won't agree to it. So, His Spirit is operating on everyone, doing His best to save them without violating their free will. If this is all God did to save us, then no one would be saved since our free will doesn't do good on its own. But here's what Scripture has to say about His passing over some people:

--John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Here, Jesus explicitly excludes many people in his prayer. He is only praying for the people the Father has given him -- and that is not everyone.

--Matthew 11:25-27, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomseover the Son will reveal him."

In this passage (see the red), Jesus thanks the Father for hiding the knowledge of Christ and the truth from many people, and only revealing these things unto some others (i.e., "babes"). In other words, there is a part of the world from which God is hiding the things of salvation -- and Jesus is thanking Him for doing it this way. Notice that no man can know God unless He is one of the people to whom the Father and the Son reveal Him (see the green), and this passage explicitly says that this isn't everyone. So God is not bringing everyone to Christ.

This means that God chooses some people to be saved, and He excludes others from this gift.

Hey, you pulled the hat trick:

Triple hogwash.

What is the real reason why Jesus didn't reveal Himself to certain individuals? Well, He told us Himself, so we really don't need to guess:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:10-15)

Jesus hid things from some and spoke only unto them in parables because or "for" their hearts had waxed gross, their ears had become dull of hearing and they had willfully shut their eyes lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their hearts and be converted and healed. IOW, God strove with them up until the point when it wasn't useful to even bother striving with them anymore, but they initially had ample opportunities to hear, see and repent. Again, they constantly resisted the Holy Ghost, even as their forefathers had done.

Now, the question is, why is this just?

And the answer is that it isn't, but instead it's something that you just made up.

Well, we did have free will at one point -- in the Garden of Eden. But we sinned in Adam. So, now, humans are sinners by nature and deserve to be condemned by God. God does not owe us a way of salvation any more than God owes fallen angels a way of salvation. (And it is interesting to note that God does not offer a way of salvation to fallen angels, but nobody complains about that -- probably because we're not fallen angels.)

Which is why Jesus told people "and ye would not!" thousands of years after Adam and Eve, right? Seriously, just be quiet.

In other words, since God doesn't owe any of us mercy, He doesn't have to save everyone. In fact, He doesn't have to save anyone. And the real mystery is that He saves anyone at all.

Finally, Christ's atonement is sufficient to save anyone who comes to him -- even if every person on earth converted. And God promises salvation to anyone who comes to Christ. So this doctrine should not be a source of discouragement to anyone. We can honestly call everyone to Christ, and God will -- He promises -- save any who come to Him. It is confusion about the doctrine that causes problems at this point. The doctrine itself is consistent with a universal offer of the Gospel.

What?

God chooses some people to damnation, but there's a universal offer of the gospel?

God help you...and I'm talking about the true God and not the false god that you've been propagating on this thread.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I took the question "Did Jesus have free will" to be referring to the incarnate Son of God not the preincarnate Son. So as Jesus, he did not have free will as He binded himself (or bound) to the Father's will. To have broken that covenant would have broken the Father's Will as well as His own while preincarnate and thus had sinned.

If the incarnate Christ didn't have free will, then why did He pray, "Not my will, but Thine be done"? Wouldn't Jesus have had to have had His Own free will in order to willfully subject it unto the Father's will?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

actually I said I was talking with him I didnt say he spoke to me but he does speak to me sometimes. I dont know why God speaks to me and not to others maybe its because im willing to listen but I dont receive divine revelations him and I are just very close and I know his voice just as Jesus said my sheep know my voice

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, God speaks to me too. In fact, He's supposed to be speaking to all of us and if He isn't, then He's probably just given up on us because we refuse to listen.

 

[hind_let_loose]

Hogwash.

It's a doctrine of devils or demons, if you prefer.

Fine....

A sovereign God isn't heretical. You're guilty of a historically-recognized heresy -- either Pelagianism or semi-pelagianism. I don't know enough about your theology to know which. But I'm only affirming historically-recognized orthodox Christianity -- something that one can easily see in Scripture if you're reading it for what it says.

That said, if you would have taken the time to read what I said a bit more carefully, you would have seen that I completely agree that people reject the Gospel and reject Christ. And their sins, of course, are the reason they'll be damned. So, yes, we preach to everyone, and those that freely reject Christ and continue to walk in their iniquities will be destroyed. Free will is perfectly capable of doing evil. It is incapable of doing good and coming to Christ. We need God's grace for that. And that's why predestination is necessary for there to be anyone who is saved.

 

[KennethC]

Proverbs 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

A sovereign God isn't heretical. You're guilty of a historically-recognized heresy -- either Pelagianism or semi-pelagianism. I don't know enough about your theology to know which. But I'm only affirming historically-recognized orthodox Christianity -- something that one can easily see in Scripture if you're reading it for what it says.

That said, if you would have taken the time to read what I said a bit more carefully, you would have seen that I completely agree that people reject the Gospel and reject Christ. And their sins, of course, are the reason they'll be damned. So, yes, we preach to everyone, and those that freely reject Christ and continue to walk in their iniquities will be destroyed. Free will is perfectly capable of doing evil. It is incapable of doing good and coming to Christ. We need God's grace for that. And that's why predestination is necessary for there to be anyone who is saved.

So, according to you, we have semi-free will? When God strives with an unregenerate man by His Spirit, that man can only willfully reject the same and not willfully embrace the same? What type of nonsense is that? Your rapist "god" isn't the God of the Bible.

 

[hind_let_loose]

A note to JesusistheChrist:

Calvinists, and advocates of predestination, believe people have free will. We just don't think fallen humans are morally capable of using that free will to do good on their own, or to choose to come to Christ, without God's sovereign grace.

So arguing that we have free will is preaching to the choir. We agree. What you need to prove that we have the moral ability, as fallen sinners, to freely choose Christ without His grace. In other words, you need to prove that we're not so bad. Something that's rather hard to do in light of Scripture's teaching in Romans 3 and elsewhere.

Otherwise, the issue of "free will" is irrelevant.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

A note to JesusistheChrist:

Calvinists, and advocates of predestination, believe people have free will. We just don't think fallen humans are morally capable of using that free will to do good on their own, or to choose to come to Christ, without God's sovereign grace.

So arguing that we have free will is preaching to the choir. We agree. What you need to prove that we have the moral ability, as fallen sinners, to freely choose Christ without His grace. In other words, you need to prove that we're not so bad. Something that's rather hard to do in light of Scripture's teaching in Romans 3 and elsewhere.

Otherwise, the issue of "free will" is irrelevant.

A note to you as well:

I'm not the least bit interested in straw man arguments.

IOW, why would I need to prove that anybody can freely choose Christ apart from God's grace when I've already stated that God is the One Who initially strives with us via His Spirit, the Spirit of grace? My contention, as I've plainly stated, is that when God does strive with somebody via the Spirit of grace, then that individual has the free will option of either submitting themselves unto such strivings or of resisting such strivings. Btw, I cannot help but notice that you're not addressing any of the scriptures which I cited. Is there a reason for that?

One more thing:

In my personal opinion, Jean Calvin might have been the biggest heretic of all time and I mean that with every fiber of my being. Personally, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's in hell as I type.