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I hate this topic, I really do, because it gets watered down from both sides.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(Rom 9:16-22)
As much as we'd like to soften the text to read, "God only hardens those who first harden themselves"...it just is not there.
I tell you (anyone reading this) what, if you promise to leave alone the clear reading of this text intact, I promise to leave alone those clear passages that speak to 'man's decision' intact. Is it a deal?
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(Rom 9:16-22)
As much as we'd like to soften the text to read, "God only hardens those who first harden themselves"...it just is not there.
I tell you (anyone reading this) what, if you promise to leave alone the clear reading of this text intact, I promise to leave alone those clear passages that speak to 'man's decision' intact. Is it a deal?
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
We are all born spiritually dead to God, and need his quickening Spirit to give us a new heart toward Him... being born again of the Holy Spirit of God. Before being born again, many people harden their hearts toward Him... it is just a fact, just as surely as it is a fact that Pharaoh hardened his heart toward God six times before God further hardened it to show forth His supremacy over the many false gods of Egypt.
We are all born spiritually dead to God, and need his quickening Spirit to give us a new heart toward Him... being born again of the Holy Spirit of God. Before being born again, many people harden their hearts toward Him... it is just a fact, just as surely as it is a fact that Pharaoh hardened his heart toward God six times before God further hardened it to show forth His supremacy over the many false gods of Egypt.
And then compare Pharoah to Saul/Paul who was raging furious against the Christians with death and imprisonment, and yet to this man Saul, regardless of his hardened titanium heart God broke through and converted him because...
God, desiring to show his MERCY and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of MERCY prepared for glory. This was not the case with Pharoah.
God, desiring to show his MERCY and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of MERCY prepared for glory. This was not the case with Pharoah.
J
How/where did I insult you? I asked you to back up your allegations and assertions. Is that insulting? What rather cute stories? Are you talking about the "little Johnny" thing? If so, then I didn't find that online. In fact, I had to go through my emails offline to find that because I emailed it to a friend of mine about 2 or 3 years ago. I've been in discussions on this topic for more than 20 years, just as an FYI. IOW means "in other words", so I don't know what that comment was all about. Iggy? Have you put me on ignore? Already? Whatever. I'll just take that to mean that you cannot back up your assertions which I knew all along anyway.
I believe in predestination 100percent because its taught in the bible so clearly.
Note: Predestination is our only hope if we really are depraved and wretched as the bible declares us to be. If we cant choose God because of our sinful nature then God must first choose us.
The bible over and over again mentions sinners as being in bondage to sin. They re slaves of sin, lovers of darkness, none good, none seek God, don't want God in our minds, born at enmity and hatred towards God, abides in the kingdom of darkness.
This is the state of every human being.
If this is true then it is God who must overcome our rebellion and disobedience and bestow Grace to us in order for us to yield to God willingly. He must first change our sinful natures and desires towards himself because we cant.
Then this is where the wonderful doctrine of election comes in.
Note: Predestination is our only hope if we really are depraved and wretched as the bible declares us to be. If we cant choose God because of our sinful nature then God must first choose us.
The bible over and over again mentions sinners as being in bondage to sin. They re slaves of sin, lovers of darkness, none good, none seek God, don't want God in our minds, born at enmity and hatred towards God, abides in the kingdom of darkness.
This is the state of every human being.
If this is true then it is God who must overcome our rebellion and disobedience and bestow Grace to us in order for us to yield to God willingly. He must first change our sinful natures and desires towards himself because we cant.
Then this is where the wonderful doctrine of election comes in.
A
Hey hey? When did you become a bold/coloring font writer? Really hard for me to have a clear reading when the font changes texture and color. (I know that's a thing on this site, but I'm walleyed, so it makes the eye I'm reading out of - my right eye -- dance, which is anything but "clear reading" to me. Doable, but it feels like everyone was asked to just run to the corner, while I get stuck with running around the whole block.)
In a helpful hint note, the hardening heart thingy is covered in Romans 1, specifically verses 18-32. (21-32, if you don't care about the set up before the story. It continues on into Romans 2, all the way to verse 11 or even past that, if you like good denouements for the story.)
In a helpful hint note, the hardening heart thingy is covered in Romans 1, specifically verses 18-32. (21-32, if you don't care about the set up before the story. It continues on into Romans 2, all the way to verse 11 or even past that, if you like good denouements for the story.)
M
You know I have come to be really fearful of the BDF, I knew my post would have to be here but I knew it would likely be hijacked by those whose interest is only in being right or claiming they know God better than the next person - not in studying or gauging the thoughts of others. I couldn't believe the activity on this thread overnight and tried to read through some of the comments before work this morning, it was a good thing I couldn't read them all or post a comment...I've had time to calm down during the day.
I have read through Romans twice and this 3rd time I am studying it, I seriously LOVE the book of Romans, it is full of good news but I do find parts of it difficult to swallow and wanted to gauge the thoughts of other members here. It started out so well, some of the posts made me think and then...
Thank you to all who posted thoughtful comments, they have helped me understand a little better. I really only want to learn, I don't care if I'm wrong or right.
I have read through Romans twice and this 3rd time I am studying it, I seriously LOVE the book of Romans, it is full of good news but I do find parts of it difficult to swallow and wanted to gauge the thoughts of other members here. It started out so well, some of the posts made me think and then...
Thank you to all who posted thoughtful comments, they have helped me understand a little better. I really only want to learn, I don't care if I'm wrong or right.
J
Hopefully, this will help to bring you even further in your understanding:
Ariel Castro charged with kidnapping, rape of 3 Cleveland women
Back in 2013, Ariel Castro was charged with the crimes of kidnapping/abducting 3 women, raping them and imprisoning them for 10 years until the time came that they finally escaped. Having rightly been convicted of such heinous crimes, Castro was sentenced to life imprisonment PLUS 1000 YEARS and he eventually killed himself in prison:
Ariel Castro dead: Cleveland kidnapper commits suicide in prison - CNN.com
Amazingly, here in 2015, there are those, professing Christians no less, who would have us to believe that the God Whom we know and serve is just like Ariel Castro. Yes, as horrifyingly and mind-numbingly amazing as it is, we're being told that our God abducts His bride, without her consent, forcibly rapes her, in effect, by planting His "seed" within her, again, without her consent and then imprisons her in that she can never willfully walk away from Him. Worse still, this abducting, raping and imprisoning God "is love".
You know that such simply cannot be the case, don't you? I more than hope that you do.
There are many aspects of Isaac's life as described for us in scripture which mirror the life of Christ. For example, Isaac's conception had a supernatural element to it in that Sarah was well stricken in years and it had ceased to be with her after the manner of women (I trust that I don't need to explain what that means) and we're told that Isaac was actually "born after the Spirit" (Galatians 4:29) and that Sarah "received strength" or dunamis power from God "to conceive seed" (Hebrews 11:11) so, again, there was a supernatural element to Isaac's conception even as there was a supernatural element to Jesus' conception. We also know from scripture that the whole ordeal regarding Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac foreshadowed Christ's resurrection from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19), but I want to focus on Isaac's marriage right now. In relation to that, we read:
"And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things. And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest? And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again. The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence. And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again. And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter. And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand: and he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the evening, even the time that women go out to draw water. And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham. Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water: And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master. And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking. And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels. And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD had made his journey prosperous or not. And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold; And said, Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee: is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge in? And she said unto him, I am the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, which she bare unto Nahor. She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in. And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the LORD. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I being in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren. And the damsel ran, and told them of her mother's house these things. And Rebekah had a brother, and his name was Laban: and Laban ran out unto the man, unto the well. And it came to pass, when he saw the earring and bracelets upon his sister's hands, and when he heard the words of Rebekah his sister, saying, Thus spake the man unto me; that he came unto the man; and, behold, he stood by the camels at the well. And he said, Come in, thou blessed of the LORD; wherefore standest thou without? for I have prepared the house, and room for the camels. And the man came into the house: and he ungirded his camels, and gave straw and provender for the camels, and water to wash his feet, and the men's feet that were with him. And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on. And he said, I am Abraham's servant. And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath. And my master made me swear, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife to my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son. And I said unto my master, Peradventure the woman will not follow me. And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house: Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath. And I came this day unto the well, and said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go; Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink; And she say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the LORD hath appointed out for my master's son. And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down unto the well, and drew water: and I said unto her, Let me drink, I pray thee. And she made haste, and let down her pitcher from her shoulder, and said, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: so I drank, and she made the camels drink also. And I asked her, and said, Whose daughter art thou? And she said, The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor's son, whom Milcah bare unto him: and I put the earring upon her face, and the bracelets upon her hands. And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. And now if ye will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me: and if not, tell me; that I may turn to the right hand, or to the left. Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good. Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the LORD hath spoken. And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshipped the LORD, bowing himself to the earth. And the servant brought forth jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment, and gave them to Rebekah: he gave also to her brother and to her mother precious things. And they did eat and drink, he and the men that were with him, and tarried all night; and they rose up in the morning, and he said, Send me away unto my master. And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go. And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master. And they said, We will call the damsel, and inquire at her mouth. And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go. And they sent away Rebekah their sister, and her nurse, and Abraham's servant, and his men. And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahai-roi; for he dwelt in the south country. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels were coming. And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death." (Genesis 24:1-67)
Here, Isaac's father, Abraham (A type of God the Father? Remember, in many ways, Isaac, his son, was a type of Jesus Christ), is seen seeking out a bride for his son. Abraham instructs his servant in relation to the same and what were his instructions? Were his instructions to abduct a woman, against her will, and to force her to be Isaac's wife? Of course, they were not. Rather, Abraham's servant was instructed to seek out a bride who would WILLINGLY CONSENT to become Isaac's wife and if the woman would not WILLINGLY CONSENT, then the servant was free from his oath in that he had completed his mission. Those of us who have not been brainwashed by some dead madman (Yes, I'm speaking of Jean Calvin; a murderous madman at that) know that this is how marriage works in the civilized world, don't we? Of course, we do. As a matter of fact, I preached a sermon on this exact topic almost 15 years ago at my own wedding reception. Why does a man bow upon his knee to propose to his hopeful bride? Is it not because Christ, the ultimate Bridegroom, bowed the heavens Himself and offered us a marriage proposal?
Contrary to what you've been told on this thread by another, our God is no respecter of persons and He's not willing that any should perish. May God Himself make these truths ever real to you.
Ariel Castro charged with kidnapping, rape of 3 Cleveland women
Back in 2013, Ariel Castro was charged with the crimes of kidnapping/abducting 3 women, raping them and imprisoning them for 10 years until the time came that they finally escaped. Having rightly been convicted of such heinous crimes, Castro was sentenced to life imprisonment PLUS 1000 YEARS and he eventually killed himself in prison:
Ariel Castro dead: Cleveland kidnapper commits suicide in prison - CNN.com
Amazingly, here in 2015, there are those, professing Christians no less, who would have us to believe that the God Whom we know and serve is just like Ariel Castro. Yes, as horrifyingly and mind-numbingly amazing as it is, we're being told that our God abducts His bride, without her consent, forcibly rapes her, in effect, by planting His "seed" within her, again, without her consent and then imprisons her in that she can never willfully walk away from Him. Worse still, this abducting, raping and imprisoning God "is love".
You know that such simply cannot be the case, don't you? I more than hope that you do.
There are many aspects of Isaac's life as described for us in scripture which mirror the life of Christ. For example, Isaac's conception had a supernatural element to it in that Sarah was well stricken in years and it had ceased to be with her after the manner of women (I trust that I don't need to explain what that means) and we're told that Isaac was actually "born after the Spirit" (Galatians 4:29) and that Sarah "received strength" or dunamis power from God "to conceive seed" (Hebrews 11:11) so, again, there was a supernatural element to Isaac's conception even as there was a supernatural element to Jesus' conception. We also know from scripture that the whole ordeal regarding Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac foreshadowed Christ's resurrection from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19), but I want to focus on Isaac's marriage right now. In relation to that, we read:
"And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things. And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest? And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again. The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence. And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again. And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter. And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand: and he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the evening, even the time that women go out to draw water. And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham. Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water: And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master. And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking. And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels. And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD had made his journey prosperous or not. And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold; And said, Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee: is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge in? And she said unto him, I am the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, which she bare unto Nahor. She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in. And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the LORD. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I being in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren. And the damsel ran, and told them of her mother's house these things. And Rebekah had a brother, and his name was Laban: and Laban ran out unto the man, unto the well. And it came to pass, when he saw the earring and bracelets upon his sister's hands, and when he heard the words of Rebekah his sister, saying, Thus spake the man unto me; that he came unto the man; and, behold, he stood by the camels at the well. And he said, Come in, thou blessed of the LORD; wherefore standest thou without? for I have prepared the house, and room for the camels. And the man came into the house: and he ungirded his camels, and gave straw and provender for the camels, and water to wash his feet, and the men's feet that were with him. And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on. And he said, I am Abraham's servant. And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath. And my master made me swear, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife to my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son. And I said unto my master, Peradventure the woman will not follow me. And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house: Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath. And I came this day unto the well, and said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go; Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink; And she say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the LORD hath appointed out for my master's son. And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down unto the well, and drew water: and I said unto her, Let me drink, I pray thee. And she made haste, and let down her pitcher from her shoulder, and said, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: so I drank, and she made the camels drink also. And I asked her, and said, Whose daughter art thou? And she said, The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor's son, whom Milcah bare unto him: and I put the earring upon her face, and the bracelets upon her hands. And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. And now if ye will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me: and if not, tell me; that I may turn to the right hand, or to the left. Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good. Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the LORD hath spoken. And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshipped the LORD, bowing himself to the earth. And the servant brought forth jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment, and gave them to Rebekah: he gave also to her brother and to her mother precious things. And they did eat and drink, he and the men that were with him, and tarried all night; and they rose up in the morning, and he said, Send me away unto my master. And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go. And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master. And they said, We will call the damsel, and inquire at her mouth. And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go. And they sent away Rebekah their sister, and her nurse, and Abraham's servant, and his men. And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahai-roi; for he dwelt in the south country. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels were coming. And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death." (Genesis 24:1-67)
Here, Isaac's father, Abraham (A type of God the Father? Remember, in many ways, Isaac, his son, was a type of Jesus Christ), is seen seeking out a bride for his son. Abraham instructs his servant in relation to the same and what were his instructions? Were his instructions to abduct a woman, against her will, and to force her to be Isaac's wife? Of course, they were not. Rather, Abraham's servant was instructed to seek out a bride who would WILLINGLY CONSENT to become Isaac's wife and if the woman would not WILLINGLY CONSENT, then the servant was free from his oath in that he had completed his mission. Those of us who have not been brainwashed by some dead madman (Yes, I'm speaking of Jean Calvin; a murderous madman at that) know that this is how marriage works in the civilized world, don't we? Of course, we do. As a matter of fact, I preached a sermon on this exact topic almost 15 years ago at my own wedding reception. Why does a man bow upon his knee to propose to his hopeful bride? Is it not because Christ, the ultimate Bridegroom, bowed the heavens Himself and offered us a marriage proposal?
Contrary to what you've been told on this thread by another, our God is no respecter of persons and He's not willing that any should perish. May God Himself make these truths ever real to you.
J
...said the woman who came barreling through this thread and accused dcon of semi pelagianism which is commonly deemed as being a heresy:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119866-we-really-predestined-3.html#post2227768
Furthermore, hind_let_loose, your partner in heresy, accused me of heresy when he said:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119866-we-really-predestined-4.html#post2227936
Just for the record.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119866-we-really-predestined-3.html#post2227768
Furthermore, hind_let_loose, your partner in heresy, accused me of heresy when he said:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119866-we-really-predestined-4.html#post2227936
Just for the record.
ah predestination as explained by a lawyer is always fun. i didn't read every post cause i know there isn't anyone talking about how they are predestined for damnation. its always the other person who is predestined for damnation, never them. they are always predestined for salvation, go figure.
God has chosen people to be predestined. those that are predestined are conformed to the image of Jesus. they take on the mind of Christ. they serve the blood of Christ. they are crucified with Christ. they follow the Spirit and put to death the sins of the flesh. the become co heirs with Christ. they are baptized by the Spirit. the works of Christ continues through the predestined. that which Jesus did once for all, goes on through the predestined until the return of Christ.
the theory that God has predestined people for damnation removes a persons free will in choosing to believe in and come to Jesus for salvation. they are not allowed to believe and damned for a lack of belief they were predestined to not have in the first place, for a choice they couldn't even make? i guess adam and eve had no choice in eating from the tree of knowledge it was predestined by God. or did they have a choice but everyone after them doesn't have a choice? if predestination for salvation and damnation is chosen by God and cant be undone because predestination is Gods will, why is there a devil? why even tell us about heaven and hell? why give ten commandments? temptations, sinning,disobedience, ect ,ect, all negated by those who completely miss the bus on what predestination is actually about.
being given the chance from God to take part in the greatest story ever told. test-ament, indeed
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
God has chosen people to be predestined. those that are predestined are conformed to the image of Jesus. they take on the mind of Christ. they serve the blood of Christ. they are crucified with Christ. they follow the Spirit and put to death the sins of the flesh. the become co heirs with Christ. they are baptized by the Spirit. the works of Christ continues through the predestined. that which Jesus did once for all, goes on through the predestined until the return of Christ.
the theory that God has predestined people for damnation removes a persons free will in choosing to believe in and come to Jesus for salvation. they are not allowed to believe and damned for a lack of belief they were predestined to not have in the first place, for a choice they couldn't even make? i guess adam and eve had no choice in eating from the tree of knowledge it was predestined by God. or did they have a choice but everyone after them doesn't have a choice? if predestination for salvation and damnation is chosen by God and cant be undone because predestination is Gods will, why is there a devil? why even tell us about heaven and hell? why give ten commandments? temptations, sinning,disobedience, ect ,ect, all negated by those who completely miss the bus on what predestination is actually about.
being given the chance from God to take part in the greatest story ever told. test-ament, indeed
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
I think God predestined all of us to be with Him in heaven. BUT God's gift of freewill supersedes HIS predestination plan hence some will burn in hell. Are these people "predestined" to burn in hell? In a sense "yes" because of the "All-knowing characteristic" of our God. How? When God created them, God knew instantly that their "freewill" choice will be to burn in hell.
L
Modern humanistic morals and philosophy are not equal measures in describing God's Sovereignty.
Comparing the Soveriegn Lord to a rapist is not logical, and is fallacious.
The words "chosen", "predestined", and "ordained" occur FAR too many times throughout Scripture to be argued away in emotion-based, manipulative rhetoric.
I don't understand HOW it all works,
but I simply submit to the facts laid out in Scripture:
God is fully Sovereign, and yet man remains fully responsible for their sins.
"Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?"
"Shall what is formed, say to the One who formed it, 'why did you make me like this?'"
The answer is simple. But humans seek to have control, and desire to be sovereign over their own destiny. Thus, they deny what is clear, because they don't want to hear it.
Comparing the Soveriegn Lord to a rapist is not logical, and is fallacious.
The words "chosen", "predestined", and "ordained" occur FAR too many times throughout Scripture to be argued away in emotion-based, manipulative rhetoric.
I don't understand HOW it all works,
but I simply submit to the facts laid out in Scripture:
God is fully Sovereign, and yet man remains fully responsible for their sins.
"Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?"
"Shall what is formed, say to the One who formed it, 'why did you make me like this?'"
The answer is simple. But humans seek to have control, and desire to be sovereign over their own destiny. Thus, they deny what is clear, because they don't want to hear it.