Are We Really Predestined?

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L

LT

Guest
#121
#121
The only reason to deny predestination, is if you believe that people actually deserve heaven.
If this is the case, then you don't understand what responsibility for sin truly equals.
Not a single person has EVER deserved anything but hell... except Christ. It is through unity with Him that we gain glory.
 
Tinkerbell725

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
#122
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
#122
Our destiny is to love and honor God for it is what we were created for. If we dont accept that destiny then life on earth will be hell no matter how we try to be happy.
 
L

LT

Guest
#123
#123
Tinkerbell725 said:
Our destiny is to love and honor God for it is what we were created for. If we dont accept that destiny then life on earth will be hell no matter how we try to be happy.
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I will accept that point.

But must counter also, with the thoughts of Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and Proverbs:
that the evil prosper, and the righteous suffer.

The Peace of God is not merely "inner peace", but is "out-of-this-world" peace. Inner peace can be attained by ANY human. The Peace of God can only be obtained by the elect, through the Spirit.

The selfish and greedy will generally be "successful" by worldly standards. That is what all the Self-Help books are all about.

Life on earth matters little, in the light of eternity. Many believers face "hell on earth", just as unbelievers do.
Jesus is not a means to living well on earth. Jesus is a means to eternal life.
Many who gain eternal life of heaven must first pass through all the hell that earth has to offer.

Let us not deceive ourselves or others. The blessings and promises of God do not guarantee any worldly success, happiness, longevity, or comforts.
Satan promises those things.
 
T

TaylorTG

Guest
#124
#124
LT said:
Let us not deceive ourselves or others. The blessings and promises of God do not guarantee any worldly success, happiness, longevity, or comforts.
Satan promises those things.
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What would you say about the beatitudes? Following them seems to ensure earthly comforts.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#125
#125
TaylorTG said:
What would you say about the beatitudes? Following them seems to ensure earthly comforts.
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Earthly? I think you should reread that portion of Scripture. It is not the temporary comforts of life and living well, but about eternal inheritance.
The martyrs did not have earthly comforts.
The persecuted Church in the Middle East and Africa do not have earthly comforts.
Why would we be any different?

Like a frog in the pot.
If it ain't too hot, it won't jump out.
And then you can turn up the heat slowly, until it's cooked,
and it won't even know it's happening.
 
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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#126
Jul 31, 2013
38,288
13,729
113
#126
VioletReigns said:
I don't know if all what you said is true because I'm not sure myself. But your comment, "Based on Father's nature alone I know this isn't true. I don't even need scripture to understand this isn't true", is such a profoundly true statement and I agree with you. I do measure everything according to the nature of the Lord.
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the slippery thing about this question and all the other questions it raises, is that i understand & agree with what you're saying here -- but based on what i know of His nature alone i know this also must be true - because He is absolutely sovereign, all-knowing & in ultimate control of all that is.

having created me, He also purposed me & knows my past, present and future intimately.
yet here i am, experientially having apparent agency & freedom.
 
Tinkerbell725

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
#127
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
#127
LT said:
I will accept that point.

But must counter also, with the thoughts of Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and Proverbs:
that the evil prosper, and the righteous suffer.

The Peace of God is not merely "inner peace", but is "out-of-this-world" peace. Inner peace can be attained by ANY human. The Peace of God can only be obtained by the elect, through the Spirit.

The selfish and greedy will generally be "successful" by worldly standards. That is what all the Self-Help books are all about.

Life on earth matters little, in the light of eternity. Many believers face "hell on earth", just as unbelievers do.
Jesus is not a means to living well on earth. Jesus is a means to eternal life.
Many who gain eternal life of heaven must first pass through all the hell that earth has to offer.

Let us not deceive ourselves or others. The blessings and promises of God do not guarantee any worldly success, happiness, longevity, or comforts.
Satan promises those things.
Click to expand...
I was not saying to love and honor God to just to received God's blessings and be happy on earth. It is what we were created for and its not about us. Its all about Him. It rains both on the righteous and the evil. But those who are evil lose God's protection and are doomed because of their own evil deeds. Righteous people although they are put to the test sometimes come out of it victorious because they do the will of God and they trust God no matter what they go through.
 
L

LT

Guest
#128
#128
Tinkerbell725 said:
I was not saying to love and honor God to just to received God's blessings and be happy on earth. It is what we were created for and its not about us. Its all about Him. It rains both on the righteous and the evil. But those who are evil lose God's protection and are doomed because of their own evil deeds. Righteous people although they are put to the test sometimes come out of it victorious because they do the will of God and they trust God no matter what they go through.
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In that case, I agree with you fully!
And AMEN
And sorry for not giving you "benefit of doubt" when reading your post.
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#129
#129
LT said:
No one is predestined to Hell. We are responsible for our sins, and earn that destiny.
God selected some AWAY from the destiny they deserve.
All predestination is Heaven-bound. It is a one-way street.
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So, God is a respecter of persons even though we're told from cover to cover in the Bible that He isn't?

Alas.

Another poster who thinks that he is wiser than God.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#130
#130
duewell said:
the theory that God has predestined people for damnation removes a persons free will in choosing to believe in and come to Jesus for salvation. they are not allowed to believe and damned for a lack of belief they were predestined to not have in the first place, for a choice they couldn't even make?
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Which is precisely why I referred to this "god", who is Satan and not God, as a "carrot on a stick god" in a previous post. You know, he sadistically waves salvation before one's eyes by seeing that the gospel is preached unto them and by striving with them by his spirit, yet all the while they had no chance whatsoever of responding to the same because they were predestined to eternal damnation. Anybody who believes in such a "god" and has the audacity to call such a god "love" is being led by anything but the Spirit of Christ.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#131
#131
posthuman said:
the slippery thing about this question and all the other questions it raises, is that i understand & agree with what you're saying here -- but based on what i know of His nature alone i know this also must be true - because He is absolutely sovereign, all-knowing & in ultimate control of all that is.

having created me, He also purposed me & knows my past, present and future intimately.
yet here i am, experientially having apparent agency & freedom.
Click to expand...
From your posts that I've read on this forum, you seem like a decent guy, so I'll ask this question of you:

Why can't God, in His sovereignty, sovereignly grant people the ability to make free will choices? Would such make Him any less sovereign?
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#132
#132
LT said:
Modern humanistic morals and philosophy are not equal measures in describing God's Sovereignty.

Comparing the Soveriegn Lord to a rapist is not logical, and is fallacious.
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No, it's perfectly logical and not the least bit fallacious. The "god" that you and others portray, from your own testimony, forcibly abducts his bride without her consent, places his "seed" within her without her consent and then holds her without her consent. That, my friend, is an abducting, raping and imprisoning "god" who deserves, at the minimum, (life) imprisonment himself and quite possibly the death sentence.
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#133
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#133
MadParrotWoman said:
What about Pharaoh - did he have a choice or did God simply harden his heart to further His cause?
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A study on the term "harden his heart" is actually that God gave them over to their evil desires. It is up to us to choose but God know what we will choose because He is God. So if you are evil you will "harden your heart" against the will of God.

Nothing will surprise God because He is God but we have to choose before our end destination :)
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#134
#134
LT said:
The words "chosen", "predestined", and "ordained" occur FAR too many times throughout Scripture to be argued away in emotion-based, manipulative rhetoric.
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Of course, you've chosen to ignore all of the scriptural arguments which have been presented on this thread. Are they "emotion-based, manipulative rhetoric" too?

I don't understand HOW it all works,
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You most certainly don't.

but I simply submit to the facts laid out in Scripture:
God is fully Sovereign, and yet man remains fully responsible for their sins.
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Would to God that you truly did submit to the same. God, in His sovereignty, has sovereignly chosen to allow men to make free will choices as I'll show in a moment.

"Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?"
"Shall what is formed, say to the One who formed it, 'why did you make me like this?'"

The answer is simple. But humans seek to have control, and desire to be sovereign over their own destiny. Thus, they deny what is clear, because they don't want to hear it.
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Sigh.

Here's what the Potter, God, has to say about the clay, mankind:

"The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." (Jeremiah 18:1-10)

If we repent when the Potter has pronounced evil against us, then the Potter remakes us...just as the Bible actually teaches from cover to cover.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#135
#135
Patnubay said:
I think God predestined all of us to be with Him in heaven. BUT God's gift of freewill supersedes HIS predestination plan hence some will burn in hell. Are these people "predestined" to burn in hell? In a sense "yes" because of the "All-knowing characteristic" of our God. How? When God created them, God knew instantly that their "freewill" choice will be to burn in hell.
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That's basically it in a nutshell. Why did Jesus Christ say that men will be condemned? Did He say that it is because God predestined them to the same? Not at all. Here, instead, is what He said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:14-21)

Although Jesus said "whosoever believes" can and will be saved, the spokespersons of a foreign "god" would have us to believe that Jesus actually said "whosoever God predestined" will be saved.

Although Jesus said that people will be condemned because "they hate the light", Jesus, and "love darkness", Satan and his works, the spokespersons of a foreign "god" would have us to believe that Jesus actually said that men will be condemned "because God predestined" the same.

I choose to believe Jesus.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#136
#136
LT said:
If that were true, there would be a verse in Scripture about it. But there isn't one.
It is a man-made philosophy that most people have bought into.

Man is responsible for their sins, but that does not equate to "free-will".
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Why should any man be responsible for his sins if God is the one Who made Him as such? The "god" whom you're describing belongs in hell and, thankfully, Jesus said that hell was actually created for him and his angels.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#137
#137
LT said:
No one is predestined to Hell. We are responsible for our sins, and earn that destiny.
God selected some AWAY from the destiny they deserve.
All predestination is Heaven-bound. It is a one-way street.
Click to expand...
Again, why are we responsible for our sins if God is the One Who made us as such? Why isn't He then responsible for our sins?

God selected some?

Folks, listen to what is repeatedly being asserted here...that God is a respecter of persons even though the Bible consistently tells us that He isn't from cover to cover.

Are there any sheep here who can distinguish between the voice of the good shepherd and the voice of the stranger?
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#138
#138
LT said:
The only reason to deny predestination, is if you believe that people actually deserve heaven.
Click to expand...
Nobody is denying predestination, but, thankfully, some are denying your twisted interpretation of it.

If this is the case, then you don't understand what responsibility for sin truly equals.
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The irony here is almost overwhelming. You keep on mentioning "the responsibility for sin", yet it is your "god", according to your testimony, who made men sinners. Your "god" belongs in hell.

Not a single person has EVER deserved anything but hell... except Christ. It is through unity with Him that we gain glory.
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Again, according to your own stated beliefs, not a single person deserves hell. Instead, your "god" who created them as sinful beings with no hope of ever being anything but the same deserves hell.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#139
#139
GandalfTheWhite said:
A study on the term "harden his heart" is actually that God gave them over to their evil desires. It is up to us to choose but God know what we will choose because He is God. So if you are evil you will "harden your heart" against the will of God.

Nothing will surprise God because He is God but we have to choose before our end destination :)
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Amen.

We are admonished in scripture to not harden our hearts when we hear the voice of God on any given day:

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

If God is the One Who hardens our hearts without any participation of our own, then why the admonition to not harden our hearts which we ought to be exhorting each other with daily?
 
Brother_Don

Brother_Don

Banned
#140
Jul 27, 2011
1,622
89
0
#140
The Almighty Creator knows who's who, and what will be the out come of all of us. Seems to me we are predestined for One Way, or the other.
 
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