Are We Really Predestined?

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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#141
#141
Brother_Don said:
The Almighty Creator knows who's who,
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Yes, He does.

and what will be the out come of all of us.
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Again, yes, He does, but is this outcome based upon the choices which we make in this life which God has foreknowledge of or not? If you were a doctor who discovered the cure for cancer and then offered it to all of the cancer patients on the face of the earth, if some cancer patients refused the cure, then whose fault would that be? Would their consequential deaths by cancer be your fault in that you somehow "predestined" the same or would it be their faults because they willfully refused the cure?

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24)

People who die in their sins and who are eternally damned for the same will do so because they refused to believe that Jesus is the Christ or because they willfully rejected God's prescribed "cure". Of course, Calvin and his adherents would have us to believe otherwise. Yes, they would have us to believe that people will die in their sins and be eternally damned because God "predestined" the same in that He allegedly never even gave them the opportunity or the ability to ever believe in Christ. Seriously, if this is your "god" or anybody else's "god" on this forum, then just renounce him in favor of the One True God.

Calvin's beliefs concerning predestination cannot be separated from his beliefs concerning "limited atonement"...the "l" in his "tulip". Christ's atonement wasn't limited. It is merely willfully rejected by some (the majority) and it therefore becomes ineffective for them by their own free will choices.

Seems to me we are predestined for One Way, or the other.
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Again, Jesus is God's "elect" or "chosen" and I've already provided some scriptures to support the same. In fact, He was "elected" or "chosen" to be the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world before the foundation of the world in that He was foreordained for such. He was also "predestined" to rise from the dead. Those of us who, by free will choices of our own, are found to be in God's "elect" or "chosen" One are likewise "elected" or "chosen" in Him and we therefore share in His "predestination" in that we, too, shall be raised from the dead unto eternal life. It's really not that complicated.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#142
#142
Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that they might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified these He also glorified."

Now read thru Romans 9,10 and 11.

Romans 11 ends vs. 34,35 " 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His councelor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever. Amen."

Isaiah 55:8,9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways. says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#143
#143
InSpiritInTruth said:
Romans 8:29-33[SUP] "[/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
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You haven't stated your purpose in posting this, but I'll briefly comment on it now just the same. Paul later on said to these same exact Christians at Rome:

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:17-21)

If the "predestination" and "election" which Paul spoke of and you quoted were automatic and we, as professing Christians, have no part to play in this equation, then why did Paul warn these same Christians to FEAR lest they BE NOT SPARED too?

As I noted in a previous post, Peter admonished CHRISTIANS to be diligent in making their own calling and election sure.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#144
#144
elf3 said:
Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that they might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified these He also glorified."

Now read thru Romans 9,10 and 11.

Romans 11 ends vs. 34,35 " 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His councelor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever. Amen."

Isaiah 55:8,9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways. says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
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Please answer the question that I just asked in post #143. Thank you.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#147
#147
JesusistheChrist said:
Ooops!

I'm sorry, I was referring to this post of mine and the question contained therein:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119866-we-really-predestined-8.html#post2230698
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Oh ok :)

If you notice I did not directly state what I believe upon "predestination" or "election". All I did was quote some verses then between the quoted verses suggest reading Romans 9,10 and 11. If, from reading those verses and chapters, someone believes I do believe in both "predestination" and "election" then it would suggest that God does have something to say about it. I could tell what I believe but it's not what I say, it's what God's Word says. Hense why I did not state my belief.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#148
#148
elf3 said:
Oh ok :)

If you notice I did not directly state what I believe upon "predestination" or "election". All I did was quote some verses then between the quoted verses suggest reading Romans 9,10 and 11. If, from reading those verses and chapters, someone believes I do believe in both "predestination" and "election" then it would suggest that God does have something to say about it. I could tell what I believe but it's not what I say, it's what God's Word says. Hense why I did not state my belief.
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That's fine. Neither you nor the other posted whom I initially quoted actually stated your beliefs and you're certainly not obligated to do so. It does all ultimately come down to what God's Word says and I was merely suggesting, even as you did, that we read more than just isolated verses.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#149
#149
JesusistheChrist said:
That's fine. Neither you nor the other posted whom I initially quoted actually stated your beliefs and you're certainly not obligated to do so. It does all ultimately come down to what God's Word says and I was merely suggesting, even as you did, that we read more than just isolated verses.
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Yeah that would basically be my point. We can pick and choose anything WE want to believe God's Word says. But it's not what WE believe it's what God tells us in His Word. I actually could have just quoted a few verses stated my beliefs and left it at that. But we need to look at God's Word as a "whole" not just a spattering of verses that we want. I came to my belief upon this subject through study and prayer (prayer being the biggest part).

Another reason I still haven't directly stated my belief upon this subject is this. Belief or unbelief in this subject will not affect our salvation. Our salvation is upon us accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not whether we believe in or don't believe in "pedestination". The Holy Spirit "touches" our heart and our lives are changed through Jesus. I thank God that He touched my heart! I also thank God that He has touched all of your hearts also! :) together we can grow closer too God through study and discussion of His Word.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#152
#152
elf3 said:
Yeah that would basically be my point. We can pick and choose anything WE want to believe God's Word says. But it's not what WE believe it's what God tells us in His Word. I actually could have just quoted a few verses stated my beliefs and left it at that. But we need to look at God's Word as a "whole" not just a spattering of verses that we want. I came to my belief upon this subject through study and prayer (prayer being the biggest part).

Another reason I still haven't directly stated my belief upon this subject is this. Belief or unbelief in this subject will not affect our salvation. Our salvation is upon us accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not whether we believe in or don't believe in "pedestination". The Holy Spirit "touches" our heart and our lives are changed through Jesus. I thank God that He touched my heart! I also thank God that He has touched all of your hearts also! :) together we can grow closer too God through study and discussion of His Word.
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I agree that we need to look at God's Word as a whole. Imo, whatever verses of scripture we examine or discuss in relation to any topic need to be considered in both their immediate contexts and the overall context of scripture. One of the points that's been stressed repeatedly by some here is that God is allegedly a respecter of persons and the entire Bible testifies against that error and it ought to be rejected by all.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#153
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,403
113
#153
atwhatcost said:
You spend a lot of time fitting scripture into your beliefs. Since most of your belief is wrapped up in End Times, and I don't rightly care about that line of thought, I usually ignore it. But this time you wrapped it up to people choose God, which isn't scripture. It's anti-scripture.

I did give scripture to show why I believe what I believe, and frankly I'm the only one giving full books of the Bible instead of giving a few verses, then making them say what I want them to say. You know that or you wouldn't have targeted that down to one post.

What game is this? Am I supposed to copy/paste the same books, the same versus, the same points one person at a time, so no one has to read anything except when someone is talking directly to them?

You know me. I don't play games when it comes to God and his word.
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Keep dreaming friend....what I wrote in my first post is based upon a multitude of scripture in context....the whole thing was decided before the casting down of the world...God predetermined that ALL who come dia faith will be received...all who fail to exercise faith will be cast from his presence....and your first statement is ignorant.....I do not wrap up everything I believe in the end times...that was just a mouthy dig to try and support your mouthy comments......not to mention your post JUDGES my motive which is contrary to scripture as I never even thought what you imply in your post....One thing I have noticed about you is you like to mouth quite a bit with little snide comments and to be frank...I see you reject scripture in context quite often.....! This is just such a case.....and lastly....I don't wrap my belief up in any scripture, but rather let the scriptures MOLD my beliefs based upon the last 44 years in church and 27 years of intensive study.....so...to be honest your view of me, what I believe, how I come to my conclusions etc. means jack at the end of the day!
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#154
#154
secularhermit said:
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It certainly would, wouldn't it? There'd be no need to open the books and to judge every man according to his works if the type of "predestination" which some believe in and teach was true.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#155
#155
JesusistheChrist said:
I agree that we need to look at God's Word as a whole. Imo, whatever verses of scripture we examine or discuss in relation to any topic need to be considered in both their immediate contexts and the overall context of scripture. One of the points that's been stressed repeatedly by some here is that God is allegedly a respecter of persons and the entire Bible testifies against that error and it ought to be rejected by all.
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One thing I have found when studying God's Word (which isn't easy to do) is not to enter any study with a preconceived idea of what it says. If we enter trying to "prove" ourselves right we will for sure exit "proving" ourselves right. We will actually end up "picking and choosing" verses that only say what we want. If we enter God's Word with a humble heart praying for direction and understanding through the Holy Spirit He will show us things we never expected. We could also find where we study something and say "oh boy did I have that wrong". But study of God's Word should always be through prayer, not our "own understanding", before we even begin.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#156
#156
elf3 said:
One thing I have found when studying God's Word (which isn't easy to do) is not to enter any study with a preconceived idea of what it says. If we enter trying to "prove" ourselves right we will for sure exit "proving" ourselves right. We will actually end up "picking and choosing" verses that only say what we want. If we enter God's Word with a humble heart praying for direction and understanding through the Holy Spirit He will show us things we never expected. We could also find where we study something and say "oh boy did I have that wrong". But study of God's Word should always be through prayer, not our "own understanding", before we even begin.
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Amen.

I fully agree.
 
H

hind_let_loose

Guest
#157
#157
JesusistheChrist said:
Again, why are we responsible for our sins if God is the One Who made us as such? Why isn't He then responsible for our sins?
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I'm glad you asked this question. It proves that predestination, as Calvinists understand it, is Biblical.

Why?

Because no one would ask your question of you when you explained your view of predestination. But Paul, after explaining his view of predestination, expected people to ask him the question you asked:

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" (Romans 9:19)

We Calvinists are in good company. We get the exact same objections that Paul, inspired the Holy Spirit, anticipated that he would get.

Remember this: you can know you're teaching Pauline doctrines when you're getting the same objections Paul anticipated. We know we're right about salvation by free grace through faith alone when people say, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Rom. 6:1) Likewise, we know we're right about predestination when people say, "Why are we still responsible for our sins if God is sovereign like you say?"
 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#158
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#158
JesusistheChrist said:
It certainly would, wouldn't it? There'd be no need to open the books and to judge every man according to his works if the type of "predestination" which some believe in and teach was true.
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Absolutely, sir!

Those records are also written online (Rev_17:8)

Rev 3:5 Everyone who wins the victory will wear white clothes. Their names will not be erased from the book of life, and I will tell my Father and his angels that they are my followers.

Rev 20:12 I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name wasn't written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#159
#159
JesusistheChrist said:
Amen.

I fully agree.
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For sure isn't easy either. We read and listen too so much concerning God's Word that we can begin to believe something without fully understanding it. When I preached or did a Bible study I always ended each session with "don't just take my word for it but study God's Word and see if what I say is truth". Studying God's Word is one way we come closer to God and understand who He is. So why would we just listen too or read what some guy said and believe it without studying God's Word ourselves? Laziness? Indifference? Stubbornness? We cannot build a table without working on it so why do we think we can "build" our lives in Christ without working on it.

I could state my belief on this subject giving Biblical references and quoting what others said on the subject. But, I don't feel God wants me to do that right now. I think God is urging me to urge others to pray and study God's Word and let the Holy Spirit guide us in understanding.

Though if someone is really hung up and totally confused on this subject I would be willing to PM and discuss both sides of the subject not just my own belief. I would discuss it totally unbiased for purpose of understanding.

Just remember that your salvation is not hinged upon belief or unbelief in predestination or election.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#160
#160
elf3 said:
Just remember that your salvation is not hinged upon belief or unbelief in predestination or election.
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I'd have to disagree with you a bit on this. How can we give all diligence to make our calling and election sure if we don't even know what our election even is?
 
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